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  #1  
Old 05-09-2020, 02:21 PM
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Another bump stock ban appeal fails

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ut...ks/ar-BB13NV4n
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Old 05-09-2020, 03:35 PM
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See the problem here?

ď[T]he public has a strong interest in banning the possession and transfer of machine guns, including bump stocks,Ē the opinion reads.

Now, here's someone making sense:

"The 10th Circuit decision was a 2-1 split, with Judge Joel Carson dissenting. He wrote that he did not believe the plastic shooting accessory was properly classified as a machine gun because it is not an automatic weapon."

A piece of plastic is not a machine gun!
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  #3  
Old 05-09-2020, 09:03 PM
earlwb earlwb is offline
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yes it is all political, there are no laws that classify it as a machine gun. But the political pressure is really against it.
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  #4  
Old 05-10-2020, 03:40 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is online now
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Originally Posted by earlwb View Post
yes it is all political, there are no laws that classify it as a machine gun. But the political pressure is really against it.
There are also no laws legislated by congress that prohibit(ed) a Straw-Buyer when purchasing a firearm from an FFL. That is what Antonin Scalia argued in Abramski v. United States. The only requirement made by congress is that the buyer present at the FFL show their valid ID; nothing more. Once own by the transferre, it would be legal for him to resell it or to have bought it as a common-law proxy for another person as long as he never transfers it to a prohibited person.

It was the Buareacrats at the BATFE that worded the 4473 form in such a way that labled the person making the purchase the "final transferee". If you failed to identify the final transferee, then you lied. Lying on a 4473 is perjury.

Scalia argued that by proxy, a government bureaucrat could legislate law without congressional approval because they could author a form with any unnecessary questions. They could put questions on a Federal form that is either not required by law (congressional law), or unnecessary. Lie on a form, you to jail, don't pass go and don't collect $200. He said they could ask you what your favorite flavor of ice cream is and if you lied, you could face serious perjury charges.

Anyhow the conservatives lost that case a few years ago. A very bad precedence for all of us, not just gun owners.
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  #5  
Old 05-12-2020, 10:45 PM
quintessetialman quintessetialman is offline
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I'm really confused by all this. Tell me again how these laws exist within "shall not be infringed"?

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  #6  
Old 05-12-2020, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by quintessetialman View Post
I'm really confused by all this. Tell me again how these laws exist within "shall not be infringed"?

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They exist because we are fighting the battle against an enemy that is not held to the laws laid out by the founding fathers. Itís their home turf, they own the referees, and they change the rules as they go. There is only one way our rights will ever be won back but at what expense? We could have stopped this a long time ago but we have failed to pay the necessary price to win. Back then it would have been much easier and without casualties. Iím afraid that civil war is the only answer but we are loosing many of our greatest men to time. In another 50 years or so there wonít be any resisters left. This is our fight to win or like. Are we willing to sacrifice everything or to scared or to comfortable to pick up arms?
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:52 PM
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They exist because we are fighting the battle against an enemy that is not held to the laws laid out by the founding fathers. Itís their home turf, they own the referees, and they change the rules as they go. There is only one way our rights will ever be won back but at what expense? We could have stopped this a long time ago but we have failed to pay the necessary price to win. Back then it would have been much easier and without casualties. Iím afraid that civil war is the only answer but we are loosing many of our greatest men to time. In another 50 years or so there wonít be any resisters left. This is our fight to win or like. Are we willing to sacrifice everything or to scared or to comfortable to pick up arms?
I think those days and time may be upon us sooner then we think or may want to admit

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  #8  
Old 05-31-2020, 06:01 PM
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Well, let me say that I'm a staunch supporter of the 2nd and an NRA lifer. Having said that, I see no use for a "toy" that enables an AR or any other gun to shoot like a machine gun while not actually being a machine gun. While the law doesn't prevent anyone from buying a toy that they can have fun with, I believe the Las Vegas massacre proves that a deranged person can murder with it at a higher pace than if he had to pull the trigger once for each firing of the gun. That piece of sh-- plastic adapter should not be allowed anywhere.
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  #9  
Old 05-31-2020, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rkammer View Post
Well, let me say that I'm a staunch supporter of the 2nd and an NRA lifer. Having said that, I see no use for a "toy" that enables an AR or any other gun to shoot like a machine gun while not actually being a machine gun. While the law doesn't prevent anyone from buying a toy that they can have fun with, I believe the Las Vegas massacre proves that a deranged person can murder with it at a higher pace than if he had to pull the trigger once for each firing of the gun. That piece of sh-- plastic adapter should not be allowed anywhere.
Anyone that has been on this site long knows I think chump stocks are for chumps. That said, if they want to chump out, fine. I personally could give a rip. But to think that what the chumphole in Vegas did was only capable of being done because he had a chump stock clearly does not understand shooting very well.
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  #10  
Old 05-31-2020, 06:15 PM
wildphil wildphil is online now
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Originally Posted by LW McVay View Post
Anyone that has been on this site long knows I think chump stocks are for chumps. That said, if they want to chump out, fine. I personally could give a rip. But to think that what the chumphole in Vegas did was only capable of being done because he had a chump stock clearly does not understand shooting very well.
You are absolutely correct.

And I also find it strange that people say they believe in the 2nd amendment but only in the firearms and accessories that they like. Do they realize that not everyone has the same interest as they do? What if everyone else had no problem banning the firearms that they liked? I would never use a bump stock. But I sure do not want to see anything associated with firearms getting banned. One thing leads to another.
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  #11  
Old 05-31-2020, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rkammer View Post
Well, let me say that I'm a staunch supporter of the 2nd and an NRA lifer. Having said that, I see no use for a "toy" that enables an AR or any other gun to shoot like a machine gun while not actually being a machine gun. While the law doesn't prevent anyone from buying a toy that they can have fun with, I believe the Las Vegas massacre proves that a deranged person can murder with it at a higher pace than if he had to pull the trigger once for each firing of the gun. That piece of sh-- plastic adapter should not be allowed anywhere.
That's the greased slope that started the stupidity originally. It should have had it's face shoved in from day zero. "Shall Not Be Infringed" - and I don't care about the level of government: local, county, state, district, federal. Bugger off.

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  #12  
Old 06-02-2020, 12:00 AM
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Having said that, I see no use for a "toy" that enables an AR or any other gun to shoot like a machine gun while not actually being a machine gun.
The principle being violated is that it's not up to you or me to decide what rights we all have, and certainly not up to government servants to decide. We've let that greased pig slip through our hands way too many times.
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  #13  
Old 06-02-2020, 12:10 AM
megafiddle megafiddle is online now
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Bump firing predates the bump stock. The bump stock only facilitated bump firing.

It's just more difficult, requiring practice, without the bump stock.

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  #14  
Old 06-02-2020, 01:58 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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People, we have been down this road before when they decided to ban the bump stocks. If someone finds a work-around that bypasses a law with a technicality, expect the loophole to be closed ASAP.

People used to be able to buy auto sears for the CAR-15s because neither was a machine gun by itself and there was no law against it. They changed that one right quick. Or the time they allowed suppressor parts to be sold for a MAC 10 along with the exterior suppressor case in unassembled pieces. Technically it wasn't a suppressor until you assembled it, so it was allowed to be sold - together in a suppressor kit....for a short time. So you could buy a MAC 10 legally, buy a paper clip legally, buy a suppressor kit legally, and it wasn't a crime until you put the paper clip in the MAC and assembled the suppressor. But when you did, you had a fully functioning, professionally suppressed full auto MAC 10. Do you folks think this should have been allowed just as you think bump stocks should be allowed? This goes on and on....switch blades were illegal, so take out the spring and make it into a legal "gravity knife". Just as fast, but now legal. Until it wasn't.

If something can duplicate or nearly duplicate an illegal item or illegal process, it will in fact become illegal once legislators understand that it exists and what it does.
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:07 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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Originally Posted by LW McVay View Post
Anyone that has been on this site long knows I think chump stocks are for chumps. That said, if they want to chump out, fine. I personally could give a rip. But to think that what the chumphole in Vegas did was only capable of being done because he had a chump stock clearly does not understand shooting very well.
I don't know LW....the guy in Vegas pretty much created the perfect storm. The best possible source of fire, a crowd so dense and immense that accuracy became unimportant and rate of fire become all important. I can't think off hand of any other situation where a bump stock would have been as effective or even effective at all compared to sustained accurate semi auto fire.
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:33 AM
rkammer rkammer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LW McVay View Post
Anyone that has been on this site long knows I think chump stocks are for chumps. That said, if they want to chump out, fine. I personally could give a rip. But to think that what the chumphole in Vegas did was only capable of being done because he had a chump stock clearly does not understand shooting very well.
My statement should have been clear to you that the number of people injured and killed was exacerbated by the use of the bump stock not that the BS was the only thing that made the event possible.

I'm a bit surprised that someone with the respect you have earned would suggest that I don't understand shooting very well. I won't list all the reasons that I do understand shooting well but, suffice it to say, my qualifications would not support your comment. And, by the way, I have used a bump stock on one occasion.
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:43 AM
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I'm amazed that any thinking individual would believe that the effectiveness of unaimed fire would surpass the effectiveness of aimed and controlled fire. I would suggest perhaps, too many viewings of Hollywood fantasies.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:46 PM
rkammer rkammer is offline
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Originally Posted by LW McVay View Post
I'm amazed that any thinking individual would believe that the effectiveness of unaimed fire would surpass the effectiveness of aimed and controlled fire. I would suggest perhaps, too many viewings of Hollywood fantasies.
The Las Vegas shooter didn't need to be "effective". The crowd was so thick all he had to do was aim in that general direction and down they went. I'm amazed you didn't consider the crowd density before making that statement. He was also across the street/parking lot so aimed fire at night would have been difficult with crowd disbursing in all directions.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:55 PM
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Old 06-02-2020, 09:20 PM
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Once again I'm ready to insist that objects cannot do illegal things, the justice system should insist that those who do illegal things, and only those individuals, be punished according to the severity of their offenses.

We have entered a time in history in which a much higher percentage of people are willing to off themselves thinking they can get away with such behavior, this it seems to me is true, however, that does not make the prohibition of objects away from the rest of us either good or evil, and that's the real problem with such laws.

When prohibitions against possessing objects fail to stop evil people from their outrages the next step is to withdraw another object from all the rest of us until, as a matter of "logic" we are all being overwatched by those waiting for the act that "Justifies" taking away everything sharp, or capable of starting fire, or of poisoning or whatever evil people think up to harm others. It's a childish way to look at it and it springs from liberal ideology about child-rearing.

To stop children from from starting fires you can either train them to not act out pyromania under threat of punishment or just make sure all matches are kept high up or locked away. All that accomplishes is a deepening desire for time with the forbidden objects!
The powers that be are supposing we are children, and like responsible parents they expect it's their job to take away whatever they want to from us.

There are ways to help children grow to adulthood understanding personal responsibility, making objects forbidden is not one of them, but in any case adults should not be treated like children.
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Old 06-02-2020, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by LW McVay View Post
I'm amazed that any thinking individual would believe that the effectiveness of unaimed fire would surpass the effectiveness of aimed and controlled fire. I would suggest perhaps, too many viewings of Hollywood fantasies.
I respect you LW, but obviously you've never been in combat with full auto fire. Other than the first original burst you're just pointing in the direction, which is exactly what the Vegas shooter did, and quite effectively with a crowd that dense.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:22 PM
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I don't think you understood what I wrote.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:07 AM
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I think we were all surprised by how effective the Vegas shooter was with bump stocks. Up until that point I had considered them a total waste of money and ammo, good only for making a lot of noise and incapable of any sort of accurate fire, much like the trigger-mounted hand cranks and such people used to buy. To me they were such a novelty that no bad guy would waste his time with such gimmickry. Unfortunately the Vegas shooter found the perfect opportunity to pour a high volume of fire into a large, dense crowd and the bump stocks helped facilitate that. He could've simply fired semi-auto as fast as he could but he wouldn't have been able to get off as many shots in the time that he did, and any improvement in his overall accuracy would've been academic given the huge target-rich environment he was shooting into.

The bottom line here is, the shooter was a smart sicko who methodically planned his attack to inflict the maximum number of casualties. Simply banning the objects he used is of little use because someone like him could come up with another way to kill people in large numbers. We mustn't forget the terrorist in Nice, France who managed to mow down and kill more people using a cargo truck than the Vegas shooter did with automatic rifles.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:43 AM
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This continually boils down simple: the ones doing wrong/evil do it regardless of laws and regulations. Meanwhile, everyone that is not doing wrong/evil gets stuck - because a bunch of numbnuts feel they can legislate Good Behavior.
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Old 06-03-2020, 09:53 AM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Originally Posted by rkammer View Post
The Las Vegas shooter didn't need to be "effective". The crowd was so thick all he had to do was aim in that general direction and down they went. I'm amazed you didn't consider the crowd density before making that statement. He was also across the street/parking lot so aimed fire at night would have been difficult with crowd disbursing in all directions.
Oklahoma City? Truck bomb?
Or he could have just stolen a tractor trailer and driven over everyone killing and injuring just as many similar to France.
Why is it when ONE person uses something related to guns or gun accessories all of us have to suffer and even a large portion support the infringement?
Itís an accessory. There are tens of thousands if not more of them out there that were being used to burn up ammo and money. ONE guy ruins it for all?
WE let them ban a piece of plastic.
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