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  #101  
Old 05-26-2019, 10:10 AM
f1racefan f1racefan is online now
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In light of all of this talk about quickness of draw, what percentage of the concealed carry population do you think actually practices drawing from concealment wearing the clothes they wear when carrying?

For that matter, what percentage of concealed carry folks even practice just shooting once a month?
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  #102  
Old 05-26-2019, 10:30 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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I am going to hazard, single digit numbers for practicing the draw, or just taking this whole concept seriously. There is thread going in General Discussion subforum, "2 is 1,..." about having duplicates of your guns. Look through it when you have a minute and see how many folks who undoubtedly consider themselves serious CCW practitioners state that they enjoy variety and cycle through different guns for concealed carry. There is absolutely unequivocal evidence that sticking with one gun is a cornerstone of developing consistency, and consistency is cornerstone of speed, yet here we go, people have "carry rotations".

Most folks have attitude based on their perceptions of risk. We don't think that getting into a gun fight is a high probability, so we default to basically "having a gun" is enough. If we knew that we'd be in shootout in one week, I guarantee that people would spend that week drawing and practicing with one gun, and putting a lot of premium on speed.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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  #103  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:35 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
Drawing from the holster and breaking the shot is a variable for speed. For close targets of 5-7 yards, it is easier to shoot faster times, since there is less need for "perfect sight picture." For drawing and breaking a shot at a 25 yard standard USPSA or IDPA target, more precise sight alignment is required. If shooting at a small 5" steel plate at 25 yards, once again, more precise sight alignment is required, and your overall time to draw and break the shot to allow a good hit is usually a bit longer when using a shot timer.

When shooting at a ten yard USPSA or IDPA target, a good drill is to set the shot timer on random, then practice one shot draws with proper technique. A good draw and trigger break may be in the one second to 1.25 second range.

One of the biggest flaws I see with new shooters conducting their draw from hands relaxed at sides, is when the buzzer goes off, they reach for the gun with their strong hand, but don't move their weak hand until the pistol has cleared the holster, and they then try to grip the pistol as it is moving upward toward the center of their chest. I think it is best to get both hands moving at the same time, and get the weak hand on the grip as soon as possible, so as you are moving the gun up and pushing out, you have a solid grip, and as the gun is being pushed away from the chest, you obtain the sights on the target and break the shot as soon as the arms are extended to the normal shooting position.

In my prime, at 5 yard distance full size USPSA target, I could draw and break the shot with a good A hit in roughly .65 - .75 second. At ten yards, it would be roughly a 1 to 1.25 second draw and shot. At 25 yards on a full size target, this may be in the 1.5 to 1.75 second range...… These times were using a speed holster and USPSA race gun, and the position of the holster was at my strong side but slightly in the appendix position.
This is a reason appendix is better. This last week I was out in Berryville shooting with a lot of Wilson sub-forum members and we were restricted to using strong side only holsters, I consistently was the fastest but on timer stages I could only get about 1.2 from a leather OWB holster vs .9 from my kydex appendix "fast" rig. 3 oclock has extra distance and motions that need to be done vs centerline carry and the only holster I used this week that was fast in that position was my race holster for my shadow that is biased quite far forward for a 3 o'clock carry. With that one I was able to be back in the holster before anyone else was on paper on a standard idpa target at 7 yards. All the others I was not quite able to get my usual times.
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  #104  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:36 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
If someone wants to develop a fast draw and has issues, the instructor should
- find out what specific aspect(s) of a draw is going awry
- tell them to keep drawing at the speed they want to achieve
- tell them to pay specific attention to execution of those aspects at that speed.



Telling people to slow down if they want to learn how to go fast is a sign of an incompetent instructor, and likely someone who hasn't learned how to go fast themselves. Million of perfect 3 second draws will not translate into a perfect 1 second draw. To be fast you need to go fast, make mistakes, understand exactly what they are, and correct them while keeping on going fast. The only time you tell them to slow down is when you don't know if they can do it right even at a slow pace.
This. You will never learn to shoot fast unless you practice at higher speeds.
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  #105  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:40 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f1racefan View Post
In light of all of this talk about quickness of draw, what percentage of the concealed carry population do you think actually practices drawing from concealment wearing the clothes they wear when carrying?

For that matter, what percentage of concealed carry folks even practice just shooting once a month?
I walk onto the range cold, and with my carry ammo draw from full concealment WITH my coat if I have one. With my normal holster I am 1.5-1.7 on a 2 inch target at 7 yards. I do that 5 times to get an average then I swap mags and draw into a Mozambique with a reload to check the reload time. Reload is just under a second without a coat and 1.2 with a coat.
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  #106  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:41 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
I am going to hazard, single digit numbers for practicing the draw, or just taking this whole concept seriously. There is thread going in General Discussion subforum, "2 is 1,..." about having duplicates of your guns. Look through it when you have a minute and see how many folks who undoubtedly consider themselves serious CCW practitioners state that they enjoy variety and cycle through different guns for concealed carry. There is absolutely unequivocal evidence that sticking with one gun is a cornerstone of developing consistency, and consistency is cornerstone of speed, yet here we go, people have "carry rotations".

Most folks have attitude based on their perceptions of risk. We don't think that getting into a gun fight is a high probability, so we default to basically "having a gun" is enough. If we knew that we'd be in shootout in one week, I guarantee that people would spend that week drawing and practicing with one gun, and putting a lot of premium on speed.
Yep. I carry guns that all work the exact same way, for a reason.
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  #107  
Old 05-26-2019, 12:10 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
There is absolutely unequivocal evidence that sticking with one gun is a cornerstone of developing consistency, and consistency is cornerstone of speed, yet here we go, people have "carry rotations".

...If we knew that we'd be in shootout in one week, I guarantee that people would spend that week drawing and practicing with one gun
Yep
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  #108  
Old 05-26-2019, 05:32 PM
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SAWBONES SAWBONES is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
There is absolutely unequivocal evidence that sticking with one gun is a cornerstone of developing consistency, and consistency is cornerstone of speed, yet here we go, people have "carry rotations".

Quite right.

There's actually a gun-related website forum where every member apparently practices a CCW "carry rotation", carrying a different member of his collection of "favorite pistols" every day; truly the mark of the non-serious hobby pistolero.
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  #109  
Old 05-26-2019, 05:49 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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You've got to be kidding. It is an accessorizing at that point, not a concealed carry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Yep. I carry guns that all work the exact same way, for a reason.
Manual of arms has become a lesser concern for, save for manual safety part, mainly because I've been doing DA/SA guns and Glocks for years, so I can shoot any trigger. Learning from a year behind slide mounted optics, I am much more concerned about grip dimensions and angles.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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  #110  
Old 05-27-2019, 06:16 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Drawing a weapon from concealment and speed to the first shot.....

The type of cover garment used can make a big difference in the speed to the first shot, and where your hands are placed before starting the draw.

For competition shooting like IDPA, where a cover garment to conceal the weapon is required, more often than not the starting position is with hands relaxed at your side. Many competitors use a "photographer's vest" which allows sweeping the vest away from the gun with the strong hand when making a draw from the holster.

When carrying a concealed weapon on the street, I normally wear a one size larger golf shirt, and have to lift the shirt with my support hand while drawing with my strong hand, which automatically makes it a slightly slower draw from the holster. Fortunately, the reality is there are very few self defense encounters that require a blazing fast draw from the holster.

I have practiced the draw from a shoulder holster carry using a photographer's vest for concealment or a light unzippered jacket if the weather is cool. If I can hold the vest with both hands about mid chest on each side of the vest or jacket as a starting position, this can be very fast on the draw, however, most competition gun ranges will not allow a shoulder holster for drawing the gun for safety reasons.
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  #111  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:42 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
Fortunately, the reality is there are very few self defense encounters that require a blazing fast draw from the holster.
Again and for a thousandth time, we don't know this. We only heard from those who survived. People who lost their self defense encounters may have wished for a faster draw.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #112  
Old 05-27-2019, 02:20 PM
Philip A. Philip A. is offline
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If you google "negligent discharge wound", and select Images, you get a plethora of bullet holes in legs, buttocks, feet, arms.

Add "appendix carry negligent discharge wound", and all you get are pictures of guns in appendix carry, no wounds to show... Why? Because the results of an appendix carry negligent discharge are usually at the morgue.

The diagram below shows a survived appendix carry negligent discharge.

Be my guest.
Attached Thumbnails
E263A43B-5C44-474A-B115-2C2A714FD3D9.jpeg  
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  #113  
Old 05-27-2019, 05:47 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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The diagram is not truly accurate, according to its author who provided the first aid. It is a general schematic that makes things look slightly more dramatic.
The ND occurred because user allowed a shirt tail to enter the holster. Besides this being a general screw up, AIWB practitioners need to know what clothing to wear for training with its multiple reps, as well as what to wear in general. There are certain things we don't like to wear and certain mods we do to our clothing.
Gun in this accident was a striker pistol without any additional safety mechanisms. DA/SA gun or manual safety may have prevented that.
The victim recovered without any lasting consequences.
There is zero data that most AIWB NDs end up in a morgue. That's something you can choose to believe but not more than that.
Yes, AIWB may have grave consequences, no doubt about that.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3

Last edited by YVK; 05-27-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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  #114  
Old 05-27-2019, 09:46 PM
Philip A. Philip A. is offline
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You're right... I went to search a bit deeper, and there are more survivors than deceased - but there are these stubborn "bled to death" who keep popping up, like:

https://www.richmond.com/archive/man...6faa719f4.html

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/0...er-milkwaukee/

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/loc...-in-groin-dies

Words that keep popping up with worrisome regularity in the reports of "accidentally shot himself in the groin" are "penis", "testicles", and "scrotum".

As I said earlier, be my guest.

Of course, this doesn't apply to people who are 100% infallible, never make any mistake, are genetically impervious to brain farts, and have such a great training background that they have a Platinum "Not Gonna Happen To Me" card.

I'm not that good, I've only been around guns for fifty years and change, and only mingle with fallible fellow humans - which gives me a skewed view of the world.
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  #115  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:15 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Other than the Chicago report, I am aware of all of them. The first two, guns were unholstered, Mexican carry and pocket carry. I repeat, unholstered guns with live chambers handled blindly, and in sitting positions. The third was a man with a whole three months of concealed carry experience and levels of maturity indicative by a desire to take a selfie with a loaded gun.
But, hey, if your fifty and change years around the guns tell you that AIWB is the root cause here, it is all good. Thanks for the offer of being your guest.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #116  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:26 AM
retrieverman retrieverman is offline
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I’ve only got one gun that I consider “suitable” for appendix carry, and that my Sig 938. I generally carry IWB at about 4 o’clock on my right side, but I do occasionally carry it appendix style while driving for easier access.

Appendix carry works ok for me, but I will never carry in gun that way without a manual safety.
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  #117  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:32 AM
SA Inc SA Inc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retrieverman View Post
I’ve only got one gun that I consider “suitable” for appendix carry, and that my Sig 938. I generally carry IWB at about 4 o’clock on my right side, but I do occasionally carry it appendix style while driving for easier access.

Appendix carry works ok for me, but I will never carry in gun that way without a manual safety.

I carry my 938 in a cross draw, not pointing at vitals and easy access
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  #118  
Old 06-17-2019, 01:30 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Damn.....5 full pages on appendix carry.
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  #119  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:13 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Why, not enough? Here is a thread with 196 pages on this subject.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....Appendix-Carry)
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #120  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:16 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Blazing fast draw needed for a self defense situation......

Quote:
Again and for a thousandth time, we don't know this. We only heard from those who survived.
Not necessarily..... Often times, a criminal will wait for the right opportunity. They want to scan the victim to see if they appear to be affluent by their dress or even their shoes, and if they are in a somewhat secluded area, or not a busy area and usually at night, they may stalk their intended victim(s) to surprise them with their gun pointed at their intended victim(s). Trying to conduct a blazing fast draw from concealment when someone has a gun already pointed at you is not the best course of action, and may get the victim killed.....criminals that already have the gun on their victims are counting on total compliance for the fear of getting shot and killed.....

Even a criminal with a knife, that is within 21 feet of their victim, can more often than not, attack and kill their victim before the victim is able to draw a weapon from concealment......LEO's learn this from conducting the Tueller Drill. A healthy male criminal can cover the 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds, so drawing from concealment to get a shot off is not easy to do....! The victim is often slowed by their reaction time.....and not expecting an attack!
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  #121  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:25 PM
pigeonracer pigeonracer is offline
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While appendix carry does have some appealing benefits, the risk just isn't worth it for me.
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  #122  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:14 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
While appendix carry does have some appealing benefits, the risk just isn't worth it for me.
Everybody gets careless or lazy at some point. I have 100% confidence that the Glock I carry will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. However people do crazy things like trying to re-holster while seated and the like that can inadvertently engage the trigger or it could happen through some other weird circumstance. I see no benefit to appendix carry that is worth possibly dying for.
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  #123  
Old 07-21-2019, 05:24 PM
Buccaneer12 Buccaneer12 is offline
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Last edited by Buccaneer12; 07-21-2019 at 06:14 PM.
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  #124  
Old 07-22-2019, 08:05 AM
Philip A. Philip A. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
While appendix carry does have some appealing benefits, the risk just isn't worth it for me.
If you allow me to paraphrase...

"While appendix carry has some appealing benefits, it does have some appalling risks too."

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  #125  
Old 07-24-2019, 11:15 AM
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TominMO TominMO is offline
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My own inclination for AIWB, my preferred carry style, is with striker-fired and DA/SA. The idea of carrying a cocked and locked 1911 in AIWB makes me very nervous, and I won't do it. My fear is that in the course of a day of normal moving around, I might inadvertently and unknowingly knock the safety off, and now I am carrying AIWB in cocked and UNlocked! And then, because of Murphy's Law, a bump in just the right way would fire the gun right at the Three Amigos.

BTW I do have very good trigger finger discipline, so that is not really an issue.

It may not be rational to be comfortable with striker-fired pistols in AIWB vs a 1911 in Condition One, but I am. I see striker guns as more akin to DA, in a functional sense.

Last edited by TominMO; 07-24-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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