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  #1  
Old 05-28-2019, 11:43 AM
Apotheosis Apotheosis is offline
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Starline .45 ACP +P Brass

I've picked up on the cheap brand new Starline .45 ACP +P brass. The previous owner didn't want them. Like me, he's primarily a target shooter. I think that he thought that +P brass would require another round of load testing.

If in fact that +P brass has less volume, would dropping to 4.5 grains of Titegroup with 185 grain Nosler target bullets do the high score trick?

In other words, would there be an issue using +P brass for target loads?
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  #2  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:15 PM
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RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
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i can't remember ever specifically buying +P brass in any caliber. But, I have picked up some at the range that other shooters have left laying. I've never taken the +P rating into account when making a handload, and 90% of my handloads are "target" loads.
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Old 05-28-2019, 12:25 PM
Apotheosis Apotheosis is offline
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Hi RetiredRod,

Thank you so much. You've provided info I need.

I've read that +P brass is a marketing gimmick. I have no clue whether it's true.

I might have new, standard Starline .45 ACP brass. If I do, I'll weight a piece of standard and +P brass to see if there's difference.

I got an excellent deal on 500 pieces of +P brass. Its former owner bought them by mistake. The deal was too good to pass buy (50 bucks).

I don't buy +P brass either, unless it is factory loaded. And one box of factory loads will last me a lifetime and long beyond.
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  #4  
Old 05-28-2019, 02:43 PM
Gersh1978 Gersh1978 is offline
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According to Starline, the +P is only a marking to help customers sort their loads. They claim there is no difference between that stamp and not having that stamp. I purchased +p in 38spl for my friend's bullets and regular for mine. Easy enough.
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Old 05-28-2019, 04:14 PM
CT911 CT911 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gersh1978 View Post
According to Starline, the +P is only a marking to help customers sort their loads. They claim there is no difference between that stamp and not having that stamp. I purchased +p in 38spl for my friend's bullets and regular for mine. Easy enough.

That's true in some cases but in 45acp they say...

"The 45 Auto+P is a strengthened version of the 45 Auto with the same external dimensions. A thicker web and heavier sidewall at base strengthens the case in potentially unsupported areas. This case has approximately 2 grains less internal water capacity than the standard 45 Auto."
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:38 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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So this means that the same load in a regular cartridge will see increases pressures in +P cases.
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  #7  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:21 AM
Apotheosis Apotheosis is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
So this means that the same load in a regular cartridge will see increases pressures in +P cases.

Good Morning Kevin,

Your question was the same question I had had. Should I drop grain weight for target loads using +P brass? Apparently not if there is no difference in standard and +P brass construction. But I will assure that's the case (no pun intended) before I load.

BTW, I'm not adverse to higher pressure loads. It's more about mitigating unnecessary stress on my handguns. I do not need a whole lot of velocity to punch holes in paper, only enough to cycle slides.

Next week, I'll be heading for Rocky Mountain high country for trout humiliation and coyote culling. I'll bring my Springfield Armory TRP .45 loaded with 230 grain Fed HST Tactical LE +P ammo just in case a mean predator (lion or bear) gets the idea that I'm dinner.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:44 AM
CT911 CT911 is offline
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So this means that the same load in a regular cartridge will see increases pressures in +P cases.
Well yes but the +P brass is reinforced so it won't blow out under +P pressures.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:45 AM
mikld mikld is offline
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I have always read/seen/heard the the "+P" headstamp was for identification purposes only (I sectioned a 38 Special +P case and a regular 38 case and measured no difference). I believe the "...strengthened version..." is advertising hype. But I would like to see/read any case capacity tests, results (actual water or powder volume results). I don't have any 45 +P ACP brass ...
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:59 AM
CT911 CT911 is offline
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Originally Posted by mikld View Post
I have always read/seen/heard the the "+P" headstamp was for identification purposes only (I sectioned a 38 Special +P case and a regular 38 case and measured no difference). I believe the "...strengthened version..." is advertising hype. But I would like to see/read any case capacity tests, results (actual water or powder volume results). I don't have any 45 +P ACP brass ...
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-...-Auto-P-Brass/
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  #11  
Old 05-29-2019, 03:33 PM
flechero flechero is online now
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Without knowing the total water volume in weight, just saying 2 grains less isn't much help.

What does 2 grains of water equate to in powder? And do they fill the case completely with water to measure that, whereas we seat a bullet into the top 1/3 or so of the case.

Seems more info would help to determine what that actual difference is, in a load.
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Old 05-29-2019, 04:08 PM
pigeonracer pigeonracer is offline
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I just picked up some 38 super +P brass from starline. I'm just going to start at the low end of recommended charge and go from there.
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  #13  
Old 05-29-2019, 05:47 PM
CT911 CT911 is offline
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Originally Posted by flechero View Post
Without knowing the total water volume in weight, just saying 2 grains less isn't much help.

What does 2 grains of water equate to in powder? And do they fill the case completely with water to measure that, whereas we seat a bullet into the top 1/3 or so of the case.

Seems more info would help to determine what that actual difference is, in a load.
That would be dependant on the powder. I don't believe Starline is giving you this information as a substitute to developing a load. It's a description of how much the case is reinforced.
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:44 AM
Apotheosis Apotheosis is offline
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Good Morning CT911,

Thanks so much for your extremely informative link.
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Old 05-30-2019, 08:23 AM
flechero flechero is online now
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Originally Posted by CT911 View Post
That would be dependant on the powder. I don't believe Starline is giving you this information as a substitute to developing a load. It's a description of how much the case is reinforced.
Yep, I understand.... I was just wondering if any of you (us) had an example to put it into some kind of perspective. For example, if 2 grains of water volume was like .1gr of clays, the difference wouldn't even be noticeable whereas if it were .6gr or more, it could be dangerous to substitute.
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:12 AM
mikld mikld is offline
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Originally Posted by CT911 View Post
Yep, but still manufacturer's "facts". How many time have you read of a specific velocity of a factory round, only to find in real life testing the manufacturers "stats" were 100 fps higher? Not disbelieving Starline's information, but today it seems to be common for a manufacturer to "exaggerate" a bit to make their product sound more desirable. I would still like to see a real life reloader's test. But in actuality, for me at least, I have no use for +P brass, especially 45 ACP...
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:07 PM
Wireman134 Wireman134 is offline
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2grains of powder can be the difference between lot runs. For ID purposes mainly don't read any more into it.
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  #18  
Old 05-31-2019, 09:09 PM
Apotheosis Apotheosis is offline
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There was a reason it was offered to me on the cheap.

I load at the low end, so a pressure increase -assuming there is an increase- it shouldn't be noticeable.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:58 PM
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RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
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Originally Posted by Wireman134 View Post
2grains of powder can be the difference between lot runs. For ID purposes mainly don't read any more into it.
Can you clarify this for me. Are you saying that (for one example) one lot of Bullseye might have a min of 3 grains & max of 6 grains, and another lot of Bullseye might have 5 gr. min & 8 gr. max.?
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:33 AM
CT911 CT911 is offline
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Trying to analyze further how two grains of water volume correlates to powder charges involves too many variables.

What is the specific gravity of the powder?
How does it fill the case?
How does the pressure curve increase with regard to volume?

Test would have to be run on each type of powder at different load levels.

The max SAMMI pressure for 45 acp is 21,000 psi while the +P max is 23,000.

With some powders it would take a small amount to see this rise others you probably would overflow the case.

I think all Starline is saying is "these are real +P cases" unlike say 38 Special where there standard case can handle +P loads and they say the marking is for identification purposes.

Last edited by CT911; 06-01-2019 at 06:36 AM.
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  #21  
Old 06-01-2019, 07:14 AM
flechero flechero is online now
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Originally Posted by CT911 View Post
Trying to analyze further how two grains of water volume correlates to powder charges involves too many variables.
I don't think anyone wants a full work up from the lab (I certainly wasn't asking for that) just one real life example of what 2 grains of 'water volume' would translate to, in any powder we'd be familiar with for 45acp.

I know there are people here that shoot precision rifle measure it in rifle cases, so I thought one might have an answer.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:59 AM
muddocktor muddocktor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flechero View Post
I don't think anyone wants a full work up from the lab (I certainly wasn't asking for that) just one real life example of what 2 grains of 'water volume' would translate to, in any powder we'd be familiar with for 45acp.

I know there are people here that shoot precision rifle measure it in rifle cases, so I thought one might have an answer.
I think that with the statement that Starline puts with their +P 45 Auto brass is their way of telling you that since the volume of their +P cases being 2 grains of water lower than their normal 45 Auto brass, you will need to work up your loads again in this brass. You should be able to keep within safe pressures by starting out with the starting loads in most data books and work up your velocities to where you want them with a chrono. But with 2 grains less capacity in these cases, you will definitely have to work up new load data for these cases.
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Old 06-01-2019, 10:56 AM
mikld mikld is offline
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I think the thread is going way off. Starline says their +P 45 ACP brass holds 2 grains less water than their "standard" brass. Not two grains less powder. It would take a chemical engineer or ballistician and a lot of math to figger out how much less powder two grains of water would be. (also depending on which powder). And what is the volume 2 grains of water? I think if it were more than just advertising Starline might pressure test their 45 +P against their standard 45 ACP brass.
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:37 AM
JimPGov JimPGov is offline
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I load starline .45 acp +p brass. I bought it that way to differentiate from regular brass. I use the +p on revolver only. That way there are no extractor or ejector marks on the brass to interfere with the full moon clip . I am loading light target loads . Mainly lead, but i have used plenty of jacketed bullets as you describe. Including 4.5 vv310, 4.7 wst, 6.0 wsf. I have seen no excessive pressure signs. At shotshow a few years back i spoke with techs at the starline booth about this. Their response was if you are using any standard load from an approved loading manual you will not see any signs of excessive pressure. Jp

p.s. Remember there are 7000 grains in a pound, 437 odd grains in an ounce. 2 grains of water is .13 cc in volume. Close as i can figure.
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:16 PM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredRod View Post
Can you clarify this for me. Are you saying that (for one example) one lot of Bullseye might have a min of 3 grains & max of 6 grains, and another lot of Bullseye might have 5 gr. min & 8 gr. max.?
I am curious also, since even in .460S&W, where powder charges are up in the mid 40 gr level, I have never had to adjust the powder charge more than a few tenths of a grain, between lots.
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