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  #1  
Old 01-12-2020, 02:22 AM
1911crazy 1911crazy is offline
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1911a1 accuracy?

Let’s say how accurate are you with a right out of the box 1911?

Brand of 1911?

Brand of ammo?

Distance?
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  #2  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:23 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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1911 accuracy.....

The question is a bit vague, since there are many mfgs and different calibers of 1911 pistols.

That being said, an average .45acp 1911 may average roughly a 3-4" five shot group measured center to center for each shot from a Ransom Machine rest, and often times, a 1911 may shoot better groups with a specific brand and bullet weight of ammo.

However, a properly built 1911 handgun in 9mm from a good gunsmith, may shoot more accurately than a .45 acp, since the 9mm cartridge has proven to have greater intrinsic accuracy.
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  #3  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:00 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Define out of the box? My Ed Brown came factory with optics and I can free hand it to under an inch center to center at 25 yards....

My full-size Wilson 9mm can do about 2 inches at the same distance and I can do about 3-4 inches with my carry gun. All guns are factory stock.....

I don't bench handguns since that's pointless in my mind and ammo used doesn't matter at these close of distances unless it's absurdly horrible then it would induce ammo related errors. At only 25 yards it's all user error, at 100 I switch to +P 185g ammo with low velo spread round to round since it's hard enough at that range without the ammo screwing up holdover.
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  #4  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:33 AM
rbert0005 rbert0005 is offline
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Gee, I wonder why bullseye shooters don't use 9mm instead of 45s?

Bob
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  #5  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:11 AM
Totally Tactical Totally Tactical is offline
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The standard WW2 1911 was fitted loose and speced for a 6 lb trigger pull.
So accuracy would be basketball size groups.

Something like a Wilson, Nighthawk with their tighter specs and lighter trigger pulls should do golf ball size groups.


Accuracy depends on quaility of parts, How well the barrel, barrel bushing and to a less extent slide to frame is fitted.
Next trigger pull, I have two 1911's with 3.5 lb triggers that can out shoot my carry 1911's with 4 lb triggers. But the light trigger is for target work, not carry use.

Last is ammo. Gun and that brand of ammo may give terrible groups and another barrel and brand of ammo may give awesome groups.
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  #6  
Old 01-12-2020, 07:00 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is online now
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My stock S70 Government shoot point of impact, and groups almost as good as my Gold Cup (1.5 to 2 inches with cheap hardball ammo)
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  #7  
Old 01-12-2020, 07:27 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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When I was shooting on the Army pistol team back in '71 I was able to keep 5 shot groups about golf ball sized with my Remington Rand at standard competition distances - one-handed shooting of course back then. Understanding that with age the remembered groups get smaller, the caught or lost fish bigger and the girls I kissed prettier.

Ammo? Whatever mil-surp crapola came out of the ammo bunker in North Carolina - lol

I always try to repost Hickok45's fine video on 'accuracy' when the topic comes up on forums -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVzSAm5VhfE&t=597s
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Last edited by RandyP; 01-12-2020 at 07:30 AM.
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  #8  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:10 AM
passx passx is online now
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To me hickok45 is nothing short of amazing ! The fact that he can routinely hit the “gong” at something like 200yds with just about anything he picks up makes feel unworthy at my attempts. He hit the “gong” in the video with a Glock for cryin-out-loud. Just amazing.

Last year being able to hit 7 of 10 rds with my Thompson .45 on a profile target at 100yds is still one of my personal high points. But as said by many and in my opinion accuracy is more about the person than the actual gun in most cases. And it varies from day to day. My opinion only.
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  #9  
Old 01-12-2020, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
To me hickok45 is nothing short of amazing ! The fact that he can routinely hit the “gong” at something like 200yds with just about anything he picks up makes feel unworthy at my attempts. He hit the “gong” in the video with a Glock for cryin-out-loud. Just amazing.
He is an excellent shot, but the "gong" is actually 80 yards away and quite large, so with enough practice it's not a difficult target to hit. And there's no question he gets in lots of practice.
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  #10  
Old 01-12-2020, 12:19 PM
green papaya green papaya is offline
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hitting a large gong at 80 yards is not too difficult, you learn the guns trajectory and aim a little high , kind of like a mortar effect and walk the rounds in until it gets a hit.
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  #11  
Old 01-12-2020, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Totally Tactical View Post
The standard WW2 1911 was fitted loose and speced for a 6 lb trigger pull.
So accuracy would be basketball size groups.
You are correct that the trigger pull was usually around 6.5#, but it's a widely held myth that military 1911s were built loose as a goose. I own several military 1911s and they are just as tight as a box-stock Colt Series 70. The stiff trigger pull combined with poor training is what gave the M1911A1 a reputation for poor accuracy. One of my most accurate 1911s is a 1943 Colt that a previous owner apparently did a trigger job on, otherwise it's completely original. It easily outshoots most of my other handguns. However my most-fired GI 1911 is a mutt with a Remington Rand upper, Sistema lower, and 5.5# trigger pull. Despite that it obviously can still put them in there:



Had soldiers back in World War Two received the level of training that we shooters enjoy today the reputation of the M1911A1 and its accuracy would be very different.
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rbert0005 View Post
Gee, I wonder why bullseye shooters don't use 9mm instead of 45s?

Bob
My B-E 9mm's will shoot 10 shots into .75-1.00"@50 yards with Atlanta Arms Match ammo.

Most use a .45 because you can use the same gun for CF and the .45 matches.
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2020, 01:12 PM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
He is an excellent shot, but the "gong" is actually 80 yards away and quite large, so with enough practice it's not a difficult target to hit. And there's no question he gets in lots of practice.
You owe it to yourself to check out Hickok45's shooting at his 230 yard gong then. He's done it with a 1911 and a compact Glock for starters.
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  #14  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:05 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is online now
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100 yd hits on a 12" gong aren't hard at all. With a tiny bit of practice, Ray Charles could score 80% hits.

200 yds is a different story as the drop of a 45 at that distance is on the order of 6-7 feet depending on the load. But even then.....once you figure out the holdover.....hits are relatively easy to come by.
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  #15  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:19 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbert0005 View Post
Gee, I wonder why bullseye shooters don't use 9mm instead of 45s?

Bob
I shot NRA pistol bullseye for 20 years. Most 1911s could chew the X ring out @ 25yds. The .45acp is plenty accurate.
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  #16  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rbert0005 View Post
Gee, I wonder why bullseye shooters don't use 9mm instead of 45s?

Bob
For many years Bullseye shooting was based on the NRA service pistol rules which stipulated a 1911 firing the .45ACP round since the pistol and cartridge were the official military standard. Once the M9 was adopted it and the 9mm caliber was allowed, and the Army team shooters have been shooting much better scores on average with accurized M9 pistols than they did with the .45 1911s.

I do not believe 9mm 1911s are allowed although the rules may have been changed in recent years.
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  #17  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:24 PM
Ingramite Ingramite is offline
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I do good with my 1911s
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  #18  
Old 01-12-2020, 07:27 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I do not believe 9mm 1911s are allowed although the rules may have been changed in recent years.
Legal since the 2018 CMP rule change. Not legal for “as issued” matches. You can get leg point and go distinguished with a 9mm 1911. Tragic. NRA other than “as issued” could care less what you use in a 1911 other than meeting the match requirement (22/Centerfire/45).

You’ll need a slow twist KKM 1:32 and 115 or 124 gr Hornady XTP or HAP bullets to take advantage of the 9mm performance.
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  #19  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:35 AM
Prange Prange is offline
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With the changed ammo requirements, you can also use softball ammo in the 45's.
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:17 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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NRA outdoor Bullseye matches.....

An NRA 2700 match has three gun divisions with 90 shots fired.....each gun division follows the same format: slow fire at 50 yards, a National Match course, timed fire at 25 yards, and rapid fire at 25 yards. All shooting is done using only one hand.

The gun divisions are .22, Center fire of choice, and the .45acp division. To my knowledge, there has never been a restriction on using a 9mm for the centerfire division in Bullseye, but the 9mm was not very accurate until they started making barrels that allowed the 9mm round to headspace on the case mouth....which greatly enhanced accuracy.....a well built 1911 9mm has the potential to shoot tighter groups than a 1911 .45acp round at 50 yards.

Quote:
I don't bench handguns since that's pointless in my mind and ammo used doesn't matter at these close of distances unless it's absurdly horrible then it would induce ammo related errors. At only 25 yards it's all user error, at 100 I switch to +P 185g ammo with low velocity spread round to round since it's hard enough at that range without the ammo screwing up holdover.
To each their own, however, I always test my reloads for accuracy at 20-25 yards using some type of rest to eliminate human error..... I shot NRA Bullseye for over ten years and having very accurate ammo for 50 yard shooting was essential.....so we tested various .45acp loads and powder choices at 50 yards in a Ransom Rest to find the best shooting powder and bullet combination. It was not uncommon to find different lot numbers of the same brand of powder that did not shoot as well as a different lot # of the same powder. Once we found an accurate 50 yard powder choice we ordered 8 lb. kegs direct from the factory.....

My .38 super self defense gun will shoot a 5-shot group just under three inches from a sandbag rest at 50 yards. I have no idea what distance I may need to shoot to defend myself, however, I would rather have a very accurate handgun for ANY distance!
I once tested my .38 super using 125 gr. JHP bullets at 1,300 fps from the muzzle compared to my 1911 5" .45acp using 230 gr FMJ (hardball) ammo at a 100 yard USPSA target. All shots were fired from a sandbag rest and both guns had iron sights. Using the middle of the torso as the aiming point, the shots using the .38 super were at the bottom of the target, and the .45acp rounds did not hit the target.....so I stapled up two targets stacked on top of each other and repeated the test. The .45acp loads were on average 18" lower at 100 yards than the hot .38super loads.....the good news was the flatter shooting .38super loads all hit the target at 100 yards using a center torso hold..... If I were ever faced in a self defense situation, and the distance was greater than 50 yards, I would seek cover and use ANY rest available to prevent human error.....I know my gun and ammo is capable out to 100 yards......if I am up to the task!

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-14-2020 at 04:41 AM.
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  #21  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:00 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
An NRA 2700 match has three gun divisions with 90 shots fired.....each gun division follows the same format: slow fire at 50 yards, a National Match course, timed fire at 25 yards, and rapid fire at 25 yards. All shooting is done using only one hand.

The gun divisions are .22, Center fire of choice, and the .45acp division. To my knowledge, there has never been a restriction on using a 9mm for the centerfire division in Bullseye, but the 9mm was not very accurate until they started making barrels that allowed the 9mm round to headspace on the case mouth....which greatly enhanced accuracy.....a well built 1911 9mm has the potential to shoot tighter groups than a 1911 .45acp round at 50 yards.



To each their own, however, I always test my reloads for accuracy at 20-25 yards using some type of rest to eliminate human error..... I shot NRA Bullseye for over ten years and having very accurate ammo for 50 yard shooting was essential.....so we tested various .45acp loads and powder choices at 50 yards in a Ransom Rest to find the best shooting powder and bullet combination. It was not uncommon to find different lot numbers of the same brand of powder that did not shoot as well as a different lot # of the same powder. Once we found an accurate 50 yard powder choice we ordered 8 lb. kegs direct from the factory.....

My .38 super self defense gun will shoot a 5-shot group just under three inches from a sandbag rest at 50 yards. I have no idea what distance I may need to shoot to defend myself, however, I would rather have a very accurate handgun for ANY distance!
I once tested my .38 super using 125 gr. JHP bullets at 1,300 fps from the muzzle compared to my 1911 5" .45acp using 230 gr FMJ (hardball) ammo at a 100 yard USPSA target. All shots were fired from a sandbag rest and both guns had iron sights. Using the middle of the torso as the aiming point, the shots using the .38 super were at the bottom of the target, and the .45acp rounds did not hit the target.....so I stapled up two targets stacked on top of each other and repeated the test. The .45acp loads were on average 18" lower at 100 yards than the hot .38super loads.....the good news was the flatter shooting .38super loads all hit the target at 100 yards using a center torso hold..... If I were ever faced in a self defense situation, and the distance was greater than 50 yards, I would seek cover and use ANY rest available to prevent human error.....I know my gun and ammo is capable out to 100 yards......if I am up to the task!
Get an optic. That will make near any gun get hits at 100 with very little user effort, reason I argue ammo does't matter is because all my optic guns can hit a 4 inch plate every single time at 50 yards no matter if it's a glock, CZ, 1911, or FN. I use really cheap ammo to practice with too......

If I can one hand my open gun at a like of soup cans at 57 yards and hit all 7 I don't think ammo matters since I used/use steel case stuff often when camping and having fun with targets like that. I also wear a range finder to check what the distance to the entertainment item is.

However it takes way too long past about 30 yards for me to get a hit on an 8 inch plate outdoors in perfect like with an iron sight gun (can't exceed 1.75 from concealment, can't exceed 1.5 at 10 yards on a 2 inch square, those are my standards) so I do not realistically expect to get any sort of hits if both parties are moving unless I have an optic gun that allows me to ignore sight alignment and just stare at the goal. Irons are really horrid when you introduce movement on both end, I do not trust my ability to meet my standards if past 10 yards in a real gunfight.
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  #22  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:17 AM
glider glider is offline
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Their is a distance at which self defense is not considered valid. Even 50 yards is not close enough I believe. Not my opinion, you do need to be able to prove that you believed your life was in danger.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:51 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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Their is a distance at which self defense is not considered valid. Even 50 yards is not close enough I believe. Not my opinion, you do need to be able to prove that you believed your life was in danger.
+1000 - from a non-LEO, non-military perspective, it would be rather hard to demonstrate 'immediate threat to my life' from a "bad guy" half a football field away.
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  #24  
Old 01-14-2020, 08:07 AM
Hawg1 Hawg1 is offline
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Where did self defense come into the picture?
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:09 AM
DWARREN123 DWARREN123 is offline
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Most are more accurate than the shooter.
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