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  #26  
Old 01-14-2020, 02:51 PM
wv109323 wv109323 is offline
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There is a lot of wiggle room in your questions.
I would guess that a military 1911a1 would be less accurate due to the loose tolerances needed for interchangeability amoung various manufacturers.
That said I would guessimate 4-5" @25yards.
Present manufactured 1911's have tighter tolerances so I would guess 2-3"@25yards.
Custom guns would be one inch or less.
Just estimates.
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2020, 04:48 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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1911 Accuracy.....

I have been shooting 1911 and STI 2011 handguns for competition and fun for over 40+ years.

I know that when making reloads, there is usually a bullet and powder combination that provides optimal accuracy for that particular gun. When I chronograph the loads, it seems illogical, but sometimes a bullet and powder may have a higher standard deviation than the same bullet with a different powder that has a lower SD, yet the higher SD combination will shoot tighter groups!! That is why many competition shooters test their reloads in a Ransom Rest or off sandbags.....to find the optimal accurate load for that gun....

I know that having the most accurate load I can muster for my self defense guns is important to me. There is no distance requirement for self defense. The Florida laws simply state that a person may use lethal force if a person is in fear for their life.....whether it is 50 yards or further.....! Any time a person is threatening or actually shooting at you, whether 50 yards away in a shopping mall or outdoors hiking in the woods......a person has the right to defend themselves if they are in fear for their life...…

I have an S&W M&P 9mm Pro Series pistol. I tested it with factory ammo, and it shot OK.....about a 3" 5-shot group at 25 yards shot off sandbags. I started experimenting and reloading with different bullets and powder, and cut the group size in half....and with my reloads, it will now shoot 5 shots center to center in a 1.5" group off sandbags......and just for fun, I shot the same reloads at 50 yards off sandbags, it kept all the shots in a 3" circle.....and no flyers!

Over my 40 years of reloading, I have found that JHP bullet profiles usually shoot more accurately than FMJ round nose bullets..... For 9mm bullets used in competition, I like the accuracy and the price of 124gr. Precision Delta JHP truncated cone bullets.....when you order 2K bullets they are $88/1000 with free shipping. I like 124gr. Montana Gold JHP bullets, and they are slightly more accurate than the Prec. Delta bullets, but the only way to get the same price as the Precision Delta bullets is to purchase a case of 3,750 bullets which runs $360.00. If a person tries to order 1,000 bullets at a time of the same bullet, the price is $ .13 per bullet, while a case price is $ .096 per bullet.....while purchasing 2K bullets at a time from Prec. Delta with the same style and weight JHP bullet is $ .089 per bullet. For the action pistol shooting matches I shoot, it is not like shooting precision Bulleye at 50 yard slow fire, and more often than not, the shots seldom exceed .35 yards....and the cardboard targets have more generous scoring rings than Bullseye! When I make my own self defense ammo for my STI 2011 .38 super, I like and use either Speer Gold Dot or Hornady XTP bullets.....both are accurate JHP style bullets, and will perform and expand very well at the velocities I choose to shoot...…which is similar to a low end .357 magnum round.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 01-15-2020 at 04:55 AM.
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  #28  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:42 PM
t30 t30 is offline
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I just bought a Tisas 1911A1 GI copy. Shot it with PMC FMJ 230 and some 200 gr LSWC target kids at 25 yards and it consistently grouped about 4”. This was strong hand supported not off a bench. Not bad I thought considering the micro sights. I did fix the trigger before I took it out. I dropped it from 7lbs to a pretty clean 4lbs.
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  #29  
Old 01-15-2020, 08:51 PM
Ghostwalker54 Ghostwalker54 is offline
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My Wilson Combat shoots under an inch at 25 yds with premium ammo that it likes and my closer to 70 than 60 year old hands shoot under a barn door at 25 yds no matter what the ammo. 😁
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  #30  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:27 PM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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10 shot group at 50 yards.....

Quote:
My B-E 9mm's will shoot 10 shots into .75-1.00"@50 yards with Atlanta Arms Match ammo.
I would have to see it to believe it..... Most Bullseye 1911 9mm guns made by a custom Bullseye gunsmith may shoot a 1.5" five shot groups at 50 yards.....

What gunsmith made your 1911 9mm....?
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  #31  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:16 AM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I would have to see it to believe it..... Most Bullseye 1911 9mm guns made by a custom Bullseye gunsmith may shoot a 1.5" five shot groups at 50 yards
Here you go....not mine but a good example test target below. This one belongs to a pistol built for a very talented shooter.

Not Atlanta Arms, but a very close version. The Gunsmith who built this pistol was the guy who developed the load and the match M9 that AA produced for the AMU originally when he was a gunsmith there. A good 9mm 1911 or M9 should be around 1” vice 1.5” for a 45 ACP if both are launching JHP. Can you get 1” 45 groups, sure. I have one. Harder than 9mm though.

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Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 01-16-2020 at 12:25 AM.
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  #32  
Old 01-16-2020, 03:11 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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Custom 1911 for Bullseye shooting....

I have heard that KKM suggests the 1:24 twist for the 115 gr. bullets, and I have found the Hornady XTP is a great bullet...…. are most super accurate 1911 9mm guns using a 1:24 twist rate in their KKM barrels....?
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  #33  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:05 AM
Prange Prange is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I would have to see it to believe it..... Most Bullseye 1911 9mm guns made by a custom Bullseye gunsmith may shoot a 1.5" five shot groups at 50 yards.....

What gunsmith made your 1911 9mm....?
David Sams. With a 1 in 32 twist KKM barrel, using 115gr. XTP bullets.
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  #34  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:09 AM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prange View Post
David Sams. With a 1 in 32 twist KKM barrel, using 115gr. XTP bullets.
Ding Ding Ding...Winner! Sometimes the 124 gr shoot better. It’s one or the other. HAP for target work are interchangeable.

Test target from the AMU barrel fixture from another member.

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  #35  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:44 AM
RUSS123 RUSS123 is offline
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I'm only as accurate as my experience allows me to be regardless of the gun, ammo, ect. Then, there's the inherent inaccuracy of the gut gun itself, only to add to my errors.
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  #36  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:21 PM
Tenagain Tenagain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyP View Post
+1000 - from a non-LEO, non-military perspective, it would be rather hard to demonstrate 'immediate threat to my life' from a "bad guy" half a football field away.
So, you're at a company picnic and all of a sudden you see everyone running down the hill away from the guy firing the AK, 50 yards away. You got your 1911 carry gun on you. Are you going to try to save lives? It's good to know what you and your weapon can do no matter how small the chance that you might need that knowledge.
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  #37  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:43 PM
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epj epj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyP View Post
When I was shooting on the Army pistol team back in '71 I was able to keep 5 shot groups about golf ball sized with my Remington Rand at standard competition distances - one-handed shooting of course back then. Understanding that with age the remembered groups get smaller, the caught or lost fish bigger and the girls I kissed prettier.

Ammo? Whatever mil-surp crapola came out of the ammo bunker in North Carolina - lol

I always try to repost Hickok45's fine video on 'accuracy' when the topic comes up on forums -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVzSAm5VhfE&t=597s
During the same time frame I competed for the Navy. Might have crossed paths with you somewhere. Anyway, my armory accurized 1911 would hold the 10 ring at 50 yards one handed. It wouldn’t do it every time, but that was an operator problem. In a 300 point match, anything under 290 I considered to be a complete failure. 293, 294, pretty common. Anything higher was pretty rare. I knew guys that could shoot 300’s, but they had guns that were better tuned than what I had.
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  #38  
Old 01-17-2020, 11:22 PM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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I was on the team at Ft Bragg for reference.

Like they always say, it ain't the bow, it ain't the arrow...it's the archer.

I suspect every handgun out there is way more combat accurate than most any of us. And since few of us shoot bullseye competition, combat accuracy will more than suffice. Near 50 years later I have been able to maintain MOPP (Minute of Paper Plate) and most importantly MOD (Minute of Dead) accuracy with all my handguns.
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  #39  
Old 01-18-2020, 03:56 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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1911 9mm 50 yard groups.....

Quote:
Like they always say, it ain't the bow, it ain't the arrow...it's the archer.
When you want to see a 9mm shoot a one inch 5-shot group at 50 yards in a Ransom Rest, you are testing the gun and the ammo.....and not the shooter....

First off, for any gun to have the intrinsic accuracy to shoot a one inch 5-shot group at 50 yards, the top Bullseye gunsmiths usually test the barrel in a barrel fixture....and usually build the gun around the chosen barrel.

I have no doubt that the 9mm cartridge will shoot best with a different twist rate than the standard 1:16 twist used in a 1911 .45acp barrel.....which is often shot with bullets that are 200+ grains, while "hardball loads" use a 230 gr. FMJ bullet.

Furthermore, most JHP bullet designs are more accurate than RN or lead bullets, and others have mentioned the KKM Precision 1:32 twist is very accurate with 115 gr. JHP bullets in the 1,200 fps muzzle velocity range.....
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  #40  
Old 01-18-2020, 08:17 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenagain View Post
So, you're at a company picnic and all of a sudden you see everyone running down the hill away from the guy firing the AK, 50 yards away. You got your 1911 carry gun on you. Are you going to try to save lives? It's good to know what you and your weapon can do no matter how small the chance that you might need that knowledge.
Your question doesn't have anything to do with accuracy of a 1911. The least accurate 1911 sold today will punch out a bad guy at 50 yds.
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  #41  
Old 01-18-2020, 01:36 PM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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"Are you going to try to save lives?"

Only my own, and if need be a family member's. Strangers are on their own.
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  #42  
Old 03-14-2020, 12:54 AM
gts350 gts350 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Get an optic. That will make near any gun get hits at 100 with very little user effort, reason I argue ammo does't matter is because all my optic guns can hit a 4 inch plate every single time at 50 yards no matter if it's a glock, CZ, 1911, or FN. I use really cheap ammo to practice with too......
I couldn't agree more. My buddy showed up to the range with a 1911 with a laser and was doing OK I joked about that being cheating. So he challenged me and said he would swap guns. I took his gun emptied the clip with results that were much better than he saw me getting with my 1911 (with extensive work done by the Marine Corp pistol team gunsmith) and significantly better than he had been doing. He shot my gun terribly and blamed the gun. My brother who was on the Marine Corp pistol team was with me and took my gun and made a nice 2 hole.
If you can't hit a target with optics you can't hit a target.

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  #43  
Old 03-14-2020, 08:27 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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There is a story I have told before. Shooting Bullseye I am mediocre. A friend using a Les Baer usually wipes out the 10 ring so badly I joke that how can you validate the number of hits since that area is gone? So one day we switch my Sig Stainless Target for his LB. He did the same thing with my Sig and I was still mediocre with the LB. It may have something to do with the shooter.
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  #44  
Old 03-14-2020, 11:42 PM
1911crazy 1911crazy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
Their is a distance at which self defense is not considered valid. Even 50 yards is not close enough I believe. Not my opinion, you do need to be able to prove that you believed your life was in danger.
I shoot most handguns at 25 yds practicing. But at the end of a shoot I go out to 100yds. I think if we’re in danger the longer shot maybe needed we never know.
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  #45  
Old 03-15-2020, 01:14 AM
Aklon Aklon is offline
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I recall my first times hooting the Les Baer TRS. I'd been shooting a Mk IV Series '70 GCNM for almost 25 years when I got a sweet deal from my gunsmith on the TRS. Using Remington UMC 230 gr FMJ, this pistol put every round right where I wanted them to go - and this with factory ammo. It was a revelation.

(I also nearly got a hernia the first time I racked it. Baer's pistols lock up tighter than Scrooge McDuck's wall safe.)
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  #46  
Old 03-15-2020, 04:57 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is online now
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1911 Accuracy.....

I have always been a fan of accurate 1911 pistols.....but there is a wide range of what people think is "accurate." I am a DIY gunsmith, buy the parts, then fit them to make my guns accurate. Once I build a 1911 or STI 2011 gun, I have done everything I know to make an accurate pistol, but the proof is in testing the gun with live ammo.....

I once built an STI 2011, and when testing the gun at 25 yards using a sand bag rest, the results were mediocre, and shot groups of 3"-5" and I was disappointed. I then began making different reloads, trying different powder and bullets, and eventually found the "sweet spot" for ammo with that gun. With my reloads, the gun fired from a sandbag rest at 25 yards, would shoot five shot groups roughly 1.5" center to center. To obtain optimal accuracy by reloading, I use either new or once fired brass with all matching head stamps which usually produces the best results.

When discussing the accuracy of any gun, you need to remove the human error, and judge the accuracy of the gun when shooting from a good rested position. A Ransom machine rest is often used to test a guns accuracy. Often times, the accuracy of any gun can be improved by reloading your own ammo and testing various powders and bullet weights to find out what shoots best in that gun.... Even with the most accurate handgun, shooting good groups at various distances is still only as good as the person pressing on the trigger..... There are exceptions, but for most handgun enthusiasts, it takes a great deal of practice using the proper fundamentals to become a good/proficient handgun shooter that can "hit where they aim!"

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 03-15-2020 at 05:04 AM.
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  #47  
Old 03-15-2020, 06:20 AM
hudsonvalley hudsonvalley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyP View Post
When I was shooting on the Army pistol team back in '71 I was able to keep 5 shot groups about golf ball sized with my Remington Rand at standard competition distances - one-handed shooting of course back then. Understanding that with age the remembered groups get smaller, the caught or lost fish bigger and the girls I kissed prettier.

Ammo? Whatever mil-surp crapola came out of the ammo bunker in North Carolina - lol

I always try to repost Hickok45's fine video on 'accuracy' when the topic comes up on forums -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVzSAm5VhfE&t=597s
good video... good point ... some people won’t get it though... he’s probably shot more ammo than the gunner of an A-10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog)
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  #48  
Old 03-15-2020, 02:09 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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A stock WW2 1911 can hit Nazis at 50 yards.

But Japanese Imperial soldiers are smaller, so 40 yards for them.

And for OUR current, most common civilian threat, meth heads at 10 feet.

As for tiny clusters on paper targets, that's a different ball game.
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  #49  
Old 03-15-2020, 02:48 PM
mdellis49 mdellis49 is offline
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