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  #1  
Old 05-27-2020, 01:53 PM
RD-K RD-K is offline
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Red dot sights for CCW

Red dot sights are obviously hard to conceal, but they certainly appear to be the future. My interest is very simple: my eyes will not get any better with time, and it makes sense to train and to carry with the red dot sights that will allow me to be a better shooter for a longer time.
It may seem like an absurd question, but I wonder if anyone has personal experience or recommendations on how to best carry red dot sights concealed?
Should it be of any importance, I use a Trijicon RMR (6 MOA)
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  #2  
Old 05-28-2020, 08:42 AM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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I don't have any personal experience but my Department is moving that way. From speaking to several people involved in the Test & Eval the biggest issue for carrying concealed was for people who carry IWB

Almost any type of outside holster carry did not print more then a non-RDS pistol. The extra bulk is on top of the slide, not at the end where it sticks out.

If you DO want to carry IWB it is possible, besides a new holster you may need a longer belt and some new pants because of the bulk.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:32 AM
Hawkeye fan Hawkeye fan is offline
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I've not had an issue with concealing a RDS pistol. Most of the time I'm carrying OWB and wearing a untucked button down shirt to cover the gun and spare mag. From time to time I will carry my G17 AIWB and it's covered with either a t-shirt or polo shirt and again no issues with it being concealed.




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Old 05-28-2020, 09:41 AM
RD-K RD-K is offline
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Thank you and that makes a lot of sense. I live in Houston, TX, and here it is hot and humid most of the year. I mostly wear my gun IWB at 8:00/9:00 (left...) under a polo shirt. This is probably the reason for my difficulty!
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:07 PM
L84CABO L84CABO is offline
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I agree with Hawkeye and as his pictures illustrate...I personally don't find red dots hard to conceal at all. The butt of the grip is the area that I generally have the most problems with, not the area where the red dot sits. It just doesn't protrude. I typically carry a 4.25" M&P Core w/RMR in a JM Custom AIWB-WC holster.

I think people expect red dots to be hard to conceal because they do add some real estate to the overall profile of the gun and make it a bit bulkier. But again, often the area where the red dot is doesn't really stick out. Now if you carry back around 4:30 or so, the red dot "MIGHT" protrude. But at 3 o'clock, appendix, and along your centerline, it's usually fine. A good holster and belt always help too.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:10 PM
L84CABO L84CABO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye fan View Post
I've not had an issue with concealing a RDS pistol. Most of the time I'm carrying OWB and wearing a untucked button down shirt to cover the gun and spare mag. From time to time I will carry my G17 AIWB and it's covered with either a t-shirt or polo shirt and again no issues with it being concealed.



Good timing! Which holster is this? I'm in need of a close riding OWB holster.

And is that an STI Staccato? If so, how do you like it.
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  #7  
Old 05-29-2020, 10:58 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye fan View Post
Most of the time I'm carrying OWB and wearing a untucked button down shirt to cover the gun and spare mag.
I was also interested in that holster... does it have a ledge or something on the belt side that keeps your Ambi Safety in position? Do you ever find that Ambi get knocked off safe?
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Old 05-29-2020, 12:53 PM
Pat-inCO Pat-inCO is offline
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I find the concept of a red dot for CC to be offensive.
It is just one more thing that can go wrong.

Several years back I watched video of Bill Jordan (then retired Border Patrol) as he put
on shooting demonstrations. Draw and fire, knock an aspirin tablet off the table. Did not
use the sights. - - - I thought, if he can hit an aspirin tablet, I should be able to hit a 4"
circle. - - - I spent most of one Summer working on that (AND about 4K rounds), and by
the end of Summer I could do it consistently. I would put three targets on the carrier,
different spacing each time, and different heights. Self imposed no Left to Right, or Right
to Left, but had to swing between targets skipping one in each pass AND no more than
two rounds on any target at one engagement. (P.S. at 25 feet)

The largest thing to me is that your eye sight does not add or subtract from the equation.
Simply because you are not using the sights. Batteries NEVER go dead. You NEVER
get slowed down trying to find the red dot. The red dot NEVER gets hung up in clothing.
You NEVER have to remember if it is turned on.

All of that aside, it is just a LOT more fun doing that much shooting.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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  #9  
Old 05-29-2020, 04:40 PM
Hawkeye fan Hawkeye fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
Good timing! Which holster is this? I'm in need of a close riding OWB holster.

And is that an STI Staccato? If so, how do you like it.
The holster is from Black Point Tactical it is their leather wing version. I also use their mag pouch to match the holster. I'm very happy with their stuff.

Yes, it is the Staccato P DOU, it is the 2019 version so it has the shorter barrel over the 2020 version and the tree bark grip pattern with I like. I'm not much of a fan of the 2020 grip they put on the gun.

Only thing I don't like about the gun is the RMR mounting plate being some damn thick. I would like the RMR to sit lower into the slide. Other than that I enjoy carrying it and shooting it.

https://blackpointtactical.com/



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Old 05-29-2020, 04:50 PM
Hawkeye fan Hawkeye fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I was also interested in that holster... does it have a ledge or something on the belt side that keeps your Ambi Safety in position? Do you ever find that Ambi get knocked off safe?
Yes, the holster's sweat guard comes up high enough to protect the thumb safety. No, I haven't yet knocked the safety off on this pistol but yes I have in the past with some of my other 1911's.




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  #11  
Old 05-30-2020, 06:54 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye fan View Post
Yes, the holster's sweat guard comes up high enough to protect the thumb safety. No, I haven't yet knocked the safety off on this pistol but yes I have in the past with some of my other 1911's.
Great pictures... yea I hate it when I go down and my Safety has been knocked off. When I look at holsters that is always the first thing I look for. Looks good. Thank you.
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  #12  
Old 05-31-2020, 02:32 AM
L84CABO L84CABO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye fan View Post
The holster is from Black Point Tactical it is their leather wing version. I also use their mag pouch to match the holster. I'm very happy with their stuff.

Yes, it is the Staccato P DOU, it is the 2019 version so it has the shorter barrel over the 2020 version and the tree bark grip pattern with I like. I'm not much of a fan of the 2020 grip they put on the gun.

Only thing I don't like about the gun is the RMR mounting plate being some damn thick. I would like the RMR to sit lower into the slide. Other than that I enjoy carrying it and shooting it.

https://blackpointtactical.com/
That thing is sweet! Why do you think the mounting plate is so thick? It seems odd but I guess there's probably a reason for it?
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  #13  
Old 05-31-2020, 02:53 AM
Totally Tactical Totally Tactical is offline
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I shot a gun with a Old C more dot once.
After the first shot, I completely lost the dot.

Now I'm a big fan of red dots on my Ar rifles.
But a rifle has 4 points where it comes in contact with your body.
So when you shoulder the rifle, the Dot in right where it should be.

On a handgun only your two hands hold it, easier to lose.

I would think a laser would be a better set up.

I'm not saying the dot on a handgun doesn't have merit,
I'm just not seeing it as a better mouse trap yet.
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  #14  
Old 05-31-2020, 04:34 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Red dot sights....

I started using red dot reflex sights in the 1990's in USPSA competition. Jerry "the Burner" Barnhart won the USPSA Nationals with an Aimpoint, (1992?) and all the top shooters started using red dot sights.....

My first red dot sight was a Tasco Pro Point, but within a short time, I changed to a C-more railway with an 8 MOA dot. I still like and prefer a 6 or 8 MOA dot when using red dot sights.

When I first started drawing and shooting from the holster using a red dot sight, I would on occasion, lose the dot.....however, as I kept practicing, I learned to "index" the gun on the target in a very consistent manner that allowed me to pick up the dot and maintain the dot when shooting very fast.

Even though red dot sights may allow faster sight acquisition and better hits, I only use them for gun games. For concealed carry, I always use regular iron sights. For most self defense situations, the distance is relatively close, and more often than not, less than 10 yards.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 05-31-2020 at 04:39 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-31-2020, 11:21 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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I currently have two otherwise 100% identical guns that I'm experimenting with for carry and the optic one is able to employ a hell of a lot more precision but the iron one has a certain flexibility especially up close that I'm having difficulty matching with the optic gun. I'm very experienced with using both but the issue becomes on a non-race type gun that the dot barely if at all moves vs a high power carry type gun you start to wait on the dot to settle instead of simply getting near full alignment with irons and "knowing" the gun to simply fire again and get a hit so I'm seeing a 20% reduction in flat out speed within 5 yards an about 10% at 7 with hits still being good and valid with irons but not nearly one hole like with the RMR. The glass also tends to fog with dirt and oil after 750 rounds

The other main issue I am not sure of a solution to is how to ensure the dot is useable at all angles like if you fall or something, you want to try and line it up perfectly and again it slows you down when you can just use irons technique and still get the hit
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  #16  
Old 06-03-2020, 04:50 AM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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I use two different pistols for carry that have red dots on them. My staccato P (2020) has a Leopold Delta Point Pro and my Sig P320 X Full has a Romeo 1 Pro.

The Staccato P has had zero problems and the batteries have been lasting for a year in the Leopold (I have had it for two years). I change them on New Years when I change to new magazines. The Leopold does not need the thick adapter plate that you see on Hawkeyes pistol, so that is another plus for me to use it.

My Sig P320 has been a great pistol/red dot combination but the light eats batteries every 4/5 months. Not that I am complaining about battery cost but I thought it would be a lot more reliable than it is turning out to be. No warning, just one day when I take it out of the gun safe the red dot is gone.

Black Point makes great holsters and I use them along with Red Hill Tactical.
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  #17  
Old 06-04-2020, 01:05 PM
Xhair Xhair is offline
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My 1st entry into a red dot sight was a Sig P229 Legion RX with a Romeo 1 sight. The Romeo 1 did not meet my standard for a concealed carry optic because of battery life and dependability. After a little less than a 1 year I sold it. It is my understanding that the Romeo 1 Pro is suppose to be a better optic, but I have no experience with it.

My 2nd run at this is a Glock G45 MOS which I mounted a 3.25 MOA RMR 2 on yesterday and actually sighted it in this morning. I have a Vedder OWB kydex holster for it and a double mag carrier. Since I live in Texas which allows open carry, I am not concerned if it prints a little under a t-shirt in the summer. Most people are so tuned out that I doubt that it is really noticeable. As a side note I did order the optional wings with the holster which really do a good job of pulling it in close the body at the 3:00 position.
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:33 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I am a serious deer hunter. I would guess that I see deer that I am willing to kill about every 35 hours of hunting. In other other words, it is a pretty big deal for me, to a see a buck that fits the criteria for a kill, and then once I see him...I gotta make the shot which is never for sure. I want everything perfect. I use a Leupold scope with a firedot. The firedot activates with movement. Of course, I keep my batteries fresh and I test the scopes operation during the preparation for each hunt.

In the last three years, I have had firedot failures with two bucks, fortunately the scope has traditional crosshairs too. I was able to still make the kills, but I was a bit distracted by the fire dots unexpected absence, it kind of pissed me off - “right when I need it, and it’s down”. You gotta refocus on the task at hand. I hunt for three months almost every day, I do it for relaxation and enjoyment. It is not in a life and death situation (at least on my end). I say all of this to remind everyone that technology/ electronics fail, and often at the worst possible times. If it fails, your performance will be affected.

If you use carry an electronic sight, I hope you have co-witness. If you train with a dot, and then it does not work like it should - it will be a distraction at the very least. For carry (serious business) I will stick with irons. If I were an offensive CQB type of guy, maybe I see the benefits of electronic dot, otherwise good for games. By the way, I have seen guys shoot in Open Class and have watched as their dot “goes down” (after they just checked it), you usually hear some bad words, and their scores sux. Funny to watch on a one way range.
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Old 06-07-2020, 01:08 AM
OldRed OldRed is offline
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Point Shooters


I've watched Bill Jordan shoot and I've seen Delf Bryce shoot better and faster than Jordan. Delf's gun only has to travel half as far as Bill's form his holster to firing position. Jerry Miculek may have been as fast at his best if he didn't waste time with the sights. The main difference was Delf and Bill were just as fast and accurate when someone was shooting at them first.

I met Delf Bryce at my wedding reception in 1967 he graduated from high school with my bride's aunt and uncle. Delf's sod graduated from high school with my wife.

It would probably be easier to learn to point shoot if almost every round was a tracer as the 44 Specials were for Delf. His vision was 20/10 the best that can be measured so was mine as kid and I knew several people that had a good deal better eye sight than did. I could see a bullet flash every now and then if the sun was right but I ever was able to see one hit the target.

No one today has the time, places or game to hunt Delf did as kid from 1912 1924 he spent most of his time with gun hunting and fishing financed by his Cherokee grandfather. I'll take all the help technology can give me in my new Springfield Hellcat with a Red Dot sight,
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Old 06-07-2020, 05:08 PM
RD-K RD-K is offline
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I find Striker 2237's note on close distances really interesting. Obviously you do not point shoot at close distance or in "off" positions. I assume that your red dor sights are co-witnessed. Do you find that it helps if you just focus on the co-witnessed sights in these situations?
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Old 06-16-2020, 08:01 PM
mhl6493 mhl6493 is online now
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Admittedly, I’ve never tried a red dot, so I have zero experience. My potential concerns would be: (1) Having it malfunction at exactly the worst time; and (2) either losing the dot altogether or losing precious time hunting the dot with my OCD. I may try it someday and perhaps will surprise myself, though, with the results.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:02 PM
DrkBlue DrkBlue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhl6493 View Post
Admittedly, I’ve never tried a red dot, so I have zero experience. My potential concerns would be: (1) Having it malfunction at exactly the worst time; and (2) either losing the dot altogether or losing precious time hunting the dot with my OCD. I may try it someday and perhaps will surprise myself, though, with the results.
Pretty much non issues.
1) The reliability is pretty high and most folks have backup irons that work the same as your present irons.
2) Modicum of training will address the hunting issue. My experience is a few hundred presentations help -just forget about the dot and focus on consistency.
3) Been AIWB for six years now with RDS. Everyone is different but very doable for me.
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Old 06-17-2020, 10:42 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I am also gonna say something else on the subject... this is from the two-way range. As Soldiers we would always remind each other as the day went on, to adjust the dot intensity for different light conditions. You never want to surprise yourself with a dot at the brightest setting when you are near dark. And conversely, you don’t want to be searching for your dot in bright outdoors when your dot was adjusted to dusk. Just some thoughts... I don’t think yet brought up.
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:28 AM
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LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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RDS equipped pistols are not hard to conceal. I committed and switched over to RDS a little over a year ago. It takes commitment and time on the range to learn it well. But the advantage is tremendous. And sure, electronics can fail, although it is rare. And that's why there are irons on there anyway. Big deal. Primers fail too sometimes...doesn't stop any of us from shooting.

Main advantages:
1). "Aged" eyes can now see the sight again
2). Distance shooting
3). Low light shooting
4). Threat focused as opposed to front sight focused

I am a believer.
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:52 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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I have a Red Dot on my AR, last year I upgraded from the Chinese No-Name which came with the Bushmaster many years ago, to an Aimpoint, wow what a difference it makes. Oh well, I guess also the TTM trigger from WC I dropped into it too :-) at the same time. Shrunk the heck at of my 100Y groups, really shrunk them N-Times...

Don't have them on any of my many pistols...Why, don't need them yet, if that changes as I continue to age I will reconsider, but for now, the old adage applies for me: "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

I can see how the Dot can help at longer distances, but at legal SD distances I don't see the need for one and indeed, arguable there can be downside...Of course, vision issues can change this and to me that would be the key decision factor to going Dot on a pistol.

If you need one on your carry/SD gun, get one, if you don't, don't...Don't change over only because they have become popular and "everyone" else is doing it - that would be the absolute worse reason to do so.
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