The difference between AD (Accidental Discharge) and ND (Negligent Discharge) - 1911Forum
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  #1  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:28 AM
ToddRvs ToddRvs is offline
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The difference between AD (Accidental Discharge) and ND (Negligent Discharge)

Ok AD or (Accidental Discharge) this is a term most and some of the more experienced firearm users use where their firearm goes bang no matter the reason it is an AD to them and almost always this is incorrect and should be termed ND (Negligent Discharge)

AN AD is defined when the firearm accidentally discharges due to an unknown manufacture defect or the firearm discharged with no input from the shooter.

Believe it or not this is the least likely of unwanted discharges of a firearm to happen, I do not think I have ever seen a real life Accidental Discharge that was not the fault of the owner knowing or otherwise. I have heard of a few AD that happen because of a manufacture faulty weapon.

A good example is like what another user on this very forum described, he used the hammer drop safety on his firearm to lower the hammer and it failed and discharged the firearm due to no fault of his own, but to a defect in the firearm safety mechanism that is designed for that very purpose and it failed causing the firearm to discharge.

Now we get to the ND ( Negligent Discharge) this is the one that accounts for 99+ percent of all firearm discharges. This is the cause of the shooter not following the gun handling safety rules. Some shooters who discharge their gun when they did not want to think it is an AD when if they look unto themselves they can clearly see that they personally caused the firearm to go off. As described in another post about this very same thing that almost caused my ND because, I failed to follow the gun handling safety rules one time.

Another example is when you try to draw your gun and you finger the trigger during the draw and it goes off and shoots you in the leg, like an unfortunate youtuber did while making a video about his combat tactic with a pistol. He even admits that he just shot himself in the leg and had an ND.

Hope this clears up the terminology.

Good Shooting and keep your muzzle downrange and be safe.

Full Disclosure
Board monitors I have a similar post as to this one posted in my original post about the ND I almost had. I thought it would get better traction here as I feel this is a very important topic and deserved its own post. If am in error posting almost the same thing here then please take it down and reference my original post and Thanks
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  #2  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:43 AM
Caminoist Caminoist is offline
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Seems all ADs are NDs, but not all NDs are ADs?
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  #3  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:56 AM
ToddRvs ToddRvs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caminoist View Post
Seems all ADs are NDs, but not all NDs are ADs?
Quite elegantly put I think I will use that

Thanks
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  #4  
Old 05-25-2020, 11:01 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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All ADs are not NDs. Plenty of people have sued Remington over Model 700 rifles that went boom without touching the trigger.
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  #5  
Old 05-25-2020, 11:03 AM
PEF PEF is offline
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The difference between AD's and ND's is the life blood of GFPs (Gun Forum Pedants).

It's odd that many on gun forums get their panties in a wad over the use of AD v. ND.

I wonder how may of them quibble with the term "car accident?" Do they tut-tut and say "Actually, you were involved in a "negligent car collision," not a "car accident," because the car was not defective."

As for NDs and ADs, I just call them "oopsies."

Seriously, context goes a long way in determining fault.

Last edited by PEF; 05-25-2020 at 11:06 AM.
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  #6  
Old 05-25-2020, 11:15 AM
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AD vs. ND

clip vs. magazine

assault weapon vs modern sporting rifle

high-capacity vs standard-capacity mag

carbine (kar-bine) vs carbine (kar-been)

Garand (Gah-rand) vs Garand (Gare-end)

9mm vs .45

Glock vs. 1911

Some people need to bitch less and shoot more.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #7  
Old 05-25-2020, 01:31 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
AD vs. ND

clip vs. magazine

assault weapon vs modern sporting rifle

high-capacity vs standard-capacity mag

carbine (kar-bine) vs carbine (kar-been)

Garand (Gah-rand) vs Garand (Gare-end)

9mm vs .45

Glock vs. 1911

Some people need to bitch less and shoot more.
The distinction between the first and the rest of the list is that while the latter may be technical or personal differences, in the case of the former, using AD interchangeably with ND is a deliberate linguistic technique to marginalize or minimize fault, blame, and accountability.

"Accident" inferes a random, no fault event- pure random chance. It has a neutral connotation.
"Negligent" implies, if not flat out claims, human error. It has a negative connotation.

Calling "negligence" an "accident" is deflecting or marginalizing the fault and accountability for the event. It makes the responsible party a "victim" of chance....
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  #8  
Old 05-25-2020, 01:36 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Speaking as one of those people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
All ADs are not NDs. Plenty of people have sued Remington over Model 700 rifles that went boom without touching the trigger.
That has had a model 700 go off without the trigger being touched. My Sendero went off on chambering a round (pointed of course in a safe direction).

However I am reluctant to call even this an actual AD. As I think that a certain amount of negligence on the part of the manufacturer is to blame here.
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  #9  
Old 05-25-2020, 01:38 PM
RickD427 RickD427 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
AD vs. ND

clip vs. magazine

assault weapon vs modern sporting rifle

high-capacity vs standard-capacity mag

carbine (kar-bine) vs carbine (kar-been)

Garand (Gah-rand) vs Garand (Gare-end)

9mm vs .45

Glock vs. 1911

Some people need to bitch less and shoot more.
^^^THIS^^^

Additionally, I would question the source of the OP's "definitions"
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  #10  
Old 05-25-2020, 01:54 PM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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I've NEVER had a ND, but I had my first AD several months ago at the range.

A hybrid Springfield of mine (customized, cerakoted, mil-spec frame, with a TRP Operator slide) was still quite hard to cycle (eventually had the frame and slide lapped some more, then switched slides altogether). I'd had problems through a few mags already, of the slide NOT returning all the way back to battery.

I was actually holding it with both hands - pointed downrange - when I released the slide on a loaded mag, and it fired. No harm, no foul, but as I knew it had mechanical issues anyway, I put THAT one away for the day!

It was certainly un-nerving, but realizing the firearm was already ill-handling, I took the proper precautions before loading it again, and have no extra holes in myself (or my shooting partner that day!) to show for it.
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  #11  
Old 05-25-2020, 02:01 PM
PEF PEF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The distinction between the first and the rest of the list is that while the latter may be technical or personal differences, in the case of the former, using AD interchangeably with ND is a deliberate linguistic technique to marginalize or minimize fault, blame, and accountability.

"Accident" inferes a random, no fault event- pure random chance. It has a neutral connotation.
"Negligent" implies, if not flat out claims, human error. It has a negative connotation.

Calling "negligence" an "accident" is deflecting or marginalizing the fault and accountability for the event. It makes the responsible party a "victim" of chance....
So if you and another driver are in an auto accident, neither you nor the other driver can be liable for damages?
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  #12  
Old 05-25-2020, 02:15 PM
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An accident defines an event as being unintentional. Negligence is a qualifier as to whether the accident was the result of poor judgment on the part of those involved or not. It really isn't one or the other if you look at the true definition of each. You can have an accident that wasn't the result of negligence, or you can have one that was.

Personally I always felt the term "negligent discharge" was just a way for self-anointed perfect people who had not yet had an accident with their firearms to berate those who had.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.

Last edited by dsk; 05-25-2020 at 02:23 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2020, 03:03 PM
pcnsd pcnsd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddRvs View Post
Now we get to the ND ( Negligent Discharge) this is the one that accounts for 99+ percent of all firearm discharges.
I know it is quibbling and I understood what you meant, but this is the sort of thing that my English teachers and later managers would point to as unclear written communication.
It is my hope and belief that 99+ percent of all firearm discharges are intentional and therefor not negligent.

As a once NDer, I'll mention what a profound effect such has on the individual. (myself anyway) No one injured, but a clear understanding that I had been a careless unthinking DA. Yes it can happen to you. Just takes a moments lapse. A small.. even obscure break in safe handling protocol. You won't forget again, but you will always regret.
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:09 PM
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If you have it it’s an AD, if someone else has it it is most certainly an ND. Jk
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:09 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Technically, we can borrow the definition from the lawyers (love or hate them):

https://www.victimslawyer.com/blog/w...alifornia-law/
Quote:
Webster’s Dictionary defines an “accident” as follows: an “unfortunate happening” that occurs “unintentionally” and results in “harm, injury, damage or loss.” By contrast, “negligence” as defined by most jurisdictions in the United States including California, is the lack of “ordinary care” or “skill” in the “management of person or property” that caused injury or harm to another person.
That pretty much fits the definition we have been bandying about here on this forum.

A negligent discharge is from lack of "ordinary care" whereas an accidental discharge occurs even when "ordinary care" is applied and there is an unfortunate happening. Both cases are technically unintentional.

Perhaps we can use: "unintentional discharge" to make things more murky and confusing, and create a 20 page thread discussion!!!!
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:38 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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So if somebody has an unintentional discharge.

Are they negligent inasmuch as they did not educate themselves properly with regard to the proper handling of said firearm?
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  #17  
Old 05-25-2020, 03:50 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny handgun View Post
If you have it it’s an AD, if someone else has it it is most certainly an ND. Jk
This is probably the best practical (i.e., common usage) definition of the difference.

All the same, dsk's post is undeniably accurate when it comes to precision of language.

I'd take either as solid.
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:57 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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If your cat pulls the trigger... What is that?
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Old 05-25-2020, 04:43 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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They’re either ‘FU’s’......or ‘OS’s’.....
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Old 05-25-2020, 05:23 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
If your cat pulls the trigger... What is that?
That's attempted murder. Never let your cat claim otherwise.
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Old 05-25-2020, 06:40 PM
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If your dog does it, that's an accident.
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Old 05-25-2020, 06:46 PM
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tgt_usa tgt_usa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
All ADs are not NDs. Plenty of people have sued Remington over Model 700 rifles that went boom without touching the trigger.
Quite so. Perhaps co-incidentally, recently posted this:

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthr...1017280?page=1

... describes -just- such an incident recently with a Remington 600. Coming off the range a bit shaken, which the staff could see, I explained why. In disengaging the safety, I had no intent to fire the rifle, yet did so: the very definition of accidental. But, following the safety rules for one thing, and for another, actually thinking of Walker trigger failures when finding the safety slightly moved and engaged. This was an accidental discharge; while deliberately aiming at my target. Definitely *not* negligent.

"negligent" means failing to take care to avoid harm. "accidental" means unintended. The two sets have a lot of overlap; but neither is a subset/superset of the other.

BTW: Disengaging the safety doesn't hold steady as well as using the trigger; so the PoI was about 6mm right from where I expected; but at the expected elevation. Still, I've had fliers further off due to caffeine, excitement and otherwise bad let-offs. My neighbor in the next lane, at least 20 holes in the target, none within 6mm of the center; yet I'm willing to believe all those bullets hit the berm.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:00 PM
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When I got to #15, I see 'PolymerMan's quote of Webster has "accidental" to include causing harm. If killing my enthusiasm for continuing the range session doesn't qualify as harm, perhaps it wasn't an accident only "unintended".

But I'll stipulate that I've seen negligence that was intentional: deliberate actions without due care to avoid harm. Twirling a pistol action closed in a store; being swept with pistols; *aimed at* with a rifle. Those were negligent without being accidental. Yet, I'll also concede, most neligeance I've seen, was also accidental.
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Last edited by tgt_usa; 05-25-2020 at 07:08 PM.
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2020, 07:13 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
Technically, we can borrow the definition from the lawyers (love or hate them):

https://www.victimslawyer.com/blog/w...alifornia-law/


That pretty much fits the definition we have been bandying about here on this forum.

A negligent discharge is from lack of "ordinary care" whereas an accidental discharge occurs even when "ordinary care" is applied and there is an unfortunate happening. Both cases are technically unintentional.

Perhaps we can use: "unintentional discharge" to make things more murky and confusing, and create a 20 page thread discussion!!!!
I'll buy this...

My big issue with the word "accident" is the societal inference that because it was unintended, that there is no personal culpability or responsibility. 'It was just an accident....' 'Accidents happen'.
The vast majority of what we call "accidents" are the result or byproduct of negligence to some degree. The bulk can be directly traced to an operator headspace and timing error.
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  #25  
Old 05-25-2020, 08:08 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
Technically, we can borrow the definition from the lawyers (love or hate them):

https://www.victimslawyer.com/blog/w...alifornia-law/


That pretty much fits the definition we have been bandying about here on this forum.

A negligent discharge is from lack of "ordinary care" whereas an accidental discharge occurs even when "ordinary care" is applied and there is an unfortunate happening. Both cases are technically unintentional.

Perhaps we can use: "unintentional discharge" to make things more murky and confusing, and create a 20 page thread discussion!!!! [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I'll buy this...

My big issue with the word "accident" is the societal inference that because it was unintended, that there is no personal culpability or responsibility. 'It was just an accident....' 'Accidents happen'.
The vast majority of what we call "accidents" are the result or byproduct of negligence to some degree. The bulk can be directly traced to an operator headspace and timing error.
This^ x10
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