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  #1  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:15 PM
GTAW GTAW is offline
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Presumed guilty/infected

The stay at home order here in California has been placed upon ALL non-essential personnel. Whether you are sick or NOT. You are told to stay home.

We are being presumed guilty. There are no available tests to prove our "condition".

We "asymptomatic" individuals (the threat) cannot prove (by test) our innocence.

Our freedom is being tested to which our privacy was tested after 9/11

Does anyone else see the issue here?
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:20 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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I afraid that California state government long ago dispensed with any notion of being subject to the United States Constitution.

The State's senators (elected by the people), Diane Feinstein and Kamala Harris, have long championed leftist thinking... their position on individual rights of this nature is overwhelmingly clear...the State is King.

Same goes for the San Francisco-based Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Edit: As far as wisdom of the CA coronavirus edicts, they do seem to be faring a lot better than NY. That needs to be at least considered. Magazineman makes a good point in his post below. I cannot disagree that one should look at all dimensions. Personally, I'm playing it safe, staying at home; albeit this is by choice rather than government edict.

But as far as focusing on Constitutional rights, those were long ago given a thumbs-down by the State of California. CA operates under the laws of the Democratic Party and they'll find ways to convolute the U.S. Constitution so as to match the Dem Party platform. And the Ninth Circuit Court can usually be relied upon to lend its support.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 04-13-2020 at 05:04 PM.
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  #3  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:22 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Yes, I see the constitutional problem. And I see the need for this too.

Also note that they don't want you to CATCH it, and pass it on to other innocents, either. So it's not just a "presumed guilty / sick" situation at all. It's both.

There's no easy answers.
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  #4  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:36 PM
ambidextrous1 ambidextrous1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTAW View Post
The stay at home order here in California has been placed upon ALL non-essential personnel. Whether you are sick or NOT. You are told to stay home.

We are being presumed guilty. There are no available tests to prove our "condition".

We "asymptomatic" individuals (the threat) cannot prove (by test) our innocence.

Our freedom is being tested to which our privacy was tested after 9/11

Does anyone else see the issue here?
You run the risk of being infected with the virus if you leave home! Stay at home, unless you are low on food, prescriptions or sanitary supplies. This won't last a long time, especially if you (and others) comply with this temporary restriction.

Your compliance is voluntary, not mandatory. You can venture out if you want, but there's not much to do out there, with restaurants, most retailers, and all sports competition and entertainment shut down.

Stay home, be safe - and maybe do some home repairs & maintenance that you don't usually have time for.
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Last edited by ambidextrous1; 04-13-2020 at 04:37 PM. Reason: typo
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  #5  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:37 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I am a deplorable, and I ain’t carrying no Covid Card, because I am too busy clinging to my guns and religion.
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:53 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I am a deplorable, and I ain’t carrying no Covid Card, because I am too busy clinging to my guns and religion.
Believe it or not, there is a discussion of issuing "Covid 19 Immunity Cards" aka go-to-work ID card to those that have tested positive to Covid 19 antibodies (immunity), and test negative to shedding Covid 19 virus.

"Your papers, please"!:

Hah... and people thought we had a right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"! Well not any more without government permission you don't.
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  #7  
Old 04-13-2020, 05:53 PM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
I afraid that California state government long ago dispensed with any notion of being subject to the United States Constitution.

The State's senators (elected by the people), Diane Feinstein and Kamala Harris, have long championed leftist thinking... their position on individual rights of this nature is overwhelmingly clear...the State is King.

Same goes for the San Francisco-based Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Edit: As far as wisdom of the CA coronavirus edicts, they do seem to be faring a lot better than NY. That needs to be at least considered. Magazineman makes a good point in his post below. I cannot disagree that one should look at all dimensions. Personally, I'm playing it safe, staying at home; albeit this is by choice rather than government edict.

But as far as focusing on Constitutional rights, those were long ago given a thumbs-down by the State of California. CA operates under the laws of the Democratic Party and they'll find ways to destroy the U.S. Constitution so as to match the Dem Party platform. And the Ninth Circuit Court can usually be relied upon to lend its support.
Fixed it for everyone..
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  #8  
Old 04-13-2020, 06:03 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Hope you're doing well, at least as well as possible, during these difficult days.
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  #9  
Old 04-13-2020, 06:36 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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The joke here is their motto of "my body my choice"
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  #10  
Old 04-13-2020, 06:50 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTAW View Post
The stay at home order here in California has been placed upon ALL non-essential personnel. Whether you are sick or NOT. You are told to stay home.

We are being presumed guilty. There are no available tests to prove our "condition".

We "asymptomatic" individuals (the threat) cannot prove (by test) our innocence.

Our freedom is being tested to which our privacy was tested after 9/11

Does anyone else see the issue here?
It’s not guilty vs innocent.

What’s the alternative? Would people accept the consequences of not only getting sick, but potentially dying? Would they be ok with causing someone else’s illness or death?

Or conversely, if you went to a crowded place and then found out the next week that everyone where you were the week before had a very contagious disease. How would it feel if nobody told you? The ‘cure’ had to be given day#2, and you got told day#7.

Public safety, dictates people be protected. Personally, I’d rather be free at home than getting sick from some stranger.
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  #11  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:04 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
The joke here is their motto of "my body my choice"
Good one
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  #12  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:13 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
It’s not guilty vs innocent.

What’s the alternative? Would people accept the consequences of not only getting sick, but potentially dying? Would they be ok with causing someone else’s illness or death?

Or conversely, if you went to a crowded place and then found out the next week that everyone where you were the week before had a very contagious disease. How would it feel if nobody told you? The ‘cure’ had to be given day#2, and you got told day#7.

Public safety, dictates people be protected. Personally, I’d rather be free at home than getting sick from some stranger.
"If it saves just one life....."

Everyone knows this is out there. Allow people the freedom to manage their own risk....

To do otherwise, to blatantly ignore the constraints placed on government by the Constitution- regardless of the reason, is to disregard it, and is beyond the pale.
Either you fully support the Constitution, ALL of it, ALWAYS, or you do not....
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  #13  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:27 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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Broken record........but let’s hear your idea were you in charge?

Last edited by shooter59; 04-13-2020 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #14  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:37 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by shooter59 View Post
Broken record........but let’s hear your idea we’re you in charge?
I doubt you’ll get one, beyond the ‘all or nothing’ stance.

Unfortunately, these are the people who will blame everyone else (and possibly litigate) should they or a loved one gets sick or worse.
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:48 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
I doubt you’ll get one, beyond the ‘all or nothing’ stance.

Unfortunately, these are the people who will blame everyone else (and possibly litigate) should they or a loved one gets sick or worse.
Really....? Where's that nonsense coming from? Nothing substantive, so a thinly veiled personal attack....

The solution isn't particularly complicated: Provide the best information available. Make [Irecommendations[/I] regarding risk mitigation, based on the knowledge available. Adjust those recommendations as information develops. Allow individuals and organizations to make their own decisions.

EXACTLY what is being done now- sans the government "order".
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:58 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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We have now surpassed Italy to become Number 1 in Covid deaths.

That is if China's numbers are legit. But if not, we are solidly in #2 position.

Don't worry, we may become the Undisputed Death Champs soon enough.

Time to get your giant #1 foam fingers out of your sports swag bag.
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  #17  
Old 04-13-2020, 08:52 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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The thing that scares me the most.

Is presumed authority. Good, bad, or otherwise. It appears that these lockdowns, distancing, other wise measures to hopefully prevent the spread of this bug. That they are indeed having a positive influence.

This being the case. Why would people insofar as they are able to do so, not attempt to adhere to these practices at least for the interim? Probably no real good one size fits all explanation for this.

However when government officials, state, local, or federal just presume to have the authority to order things that signed legislation has not provided for. Additionally to enforce it with punitive police actions. I will just let it suffice to say that I have issues with this.

I might sum it up with a short sentence. This being that poor planning on their part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

My wife and I did not decide to isolate ourselves due to what anyone told us. We got the idea from just reading the writing on the wall. Subsequently our erstwhile racist Governor, of a very questionable background. He has encouraged us to do what we have been doing already. Not too surprisingly this appears to be the pragmatic route going forward, at least in the interim. I am much more confidant in the advice that I got from my primary care physician today. His recommendation was not surprisingly to continue with quarantine. This man has been my primary care physician for over two decades and I have a great deal of respect for his opinions.

Should our suspect governor attempt to force my wife and I to do things that I do not see as being beneficial. There will be push back. Not the first time we have been down this road with the Governor this year here in the Commonwealth.

Last edited by USMM guy; 04-13-2020 at 09:21 PM.
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  #18  
Old 04-13-2020, 08:55 PM
GTAW GTAW is offline
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All I'm saying is that healthy people aren't falling over and dying. There are 8 billion of us. I'm sure there are some that will die eventually due to the flu no matter how far apart we are.
We are closing businesses and schools and destroying the economy to protect the weak.
Lets say all the records for every gun owner were lost and the background check system failed. So Uncle Sam decides to tell every gun owner that they are a felon and we must surrender our guns. There is no record of criminal history as there are no tests to prove you don't have CV9. Therefore, you are guilty, and its the safest way to handle the situation right? This can't be about safety. The CDC, the WHO and the Whitehouse among many other organizations would have reported consistent facts during the onset of the pandemic. No one was on the same page with the facts, if they don't know, don't assume if it's SO deadly. Don't make inaccurate recommendations to the public. Never seemed that serious. See how many COVID19 deaths were reported in Beijing for example.
Anyone notice how no one was/is on the same page with the facts? Fear. They need support just like after 9/11 to go after the CCP. It's stupid. Kill the economy to perpetuate aggression towards China.
CV9 is just another tool for provocation. Rant done
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  #19  
Old 04-13-2020, 09:02 PM
Sistema1927 Sistema1927 is offline
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Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
We have now surpassed Italy to become Number 1 in Covid deaths.

That is if China's numbers are legit. But if not, we are solidly in #2 position.

Don't worry, we may become the Undisputed Death Champs soon enough.

Time to get your giant #1 foam fingers out of your sports swag bag.
We are not, however, #1 in deaths per capita, which is the only metric that makes sense.

The Chicoms have lied since the beginning, why would anyone trust them? I am guessing that their deaths are in the tens of millions.
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  #20  
Old 04-13-2020, 09:57 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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There is a meritorious debate, with strong, deeply held sentiments on both sides, as to whether or not governments -- primarily the U.S. with our Constitution -- have rightful authority to mandate restrictions on freedoms of movement or congregation, so as to minimize community exposures (including impacts on the "persons the first person meets a few days later").

And there are peripheral debates as well, including beliefs that coronavirus presents minimal or no risk to young people; and that others in any risk group should be solely responsible -- i.e., it's totally "on them" -- for separating themselves from, to get out of the way of, those who are not in a risk group. IOW, it's exclusively their problem, no one else's.

I've decided not to go whole hog in one direction or the other in this/these debates, because I'm not convinced that there's a really clear best answer. I suspect any best answer does not lay at an extreme end of the spectrum. Freedom and following of the Constitution is critical, of course, as well understood by any resolute supporter of 2A rights. But reckless behavior, which leads quite predictably to at least some deaths of others, is also not so endorsed by the Constitution (IMHO). But I will say that very meritorious arguments have been made in both directions. Both merit a lot of attention and words of warning on either side need to be taken seriously; not dismissed out of hand or trivialized.

If I'm obligated to go in one direction or the other as advocating a prescription for others (I've already decided safeguards for myself, so that's a done deal), I've decided I'm going with President Trump. That is not so much a blind following (again, I've already chosen for myself); instead, it is more a combination of practicality, support for the President I voted for -- and will vote for again, and trust that he will decide better than any Dem and/or media adversary. And he is President and Commander in Chief... including mine.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 04-13-2020 at 10:25 PM.
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  #21  
Old 04-13-2020, 10:44 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post

Allow people the freedom to manage their own risk....

To do otherwise, to blatantly ignore the constraints placed on government by the Constitution- .
Really? Thats your answer? Clinically, that would lead to disastrous results.

Some of the governors are definitely taking advantage and enjoying playing Napoleon. Most of these ‘orders’ are strong recommendations.
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  #22  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:07 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
Really? Thats your answer? Clinically, that would lead to disastrous results.

Some of the governors are definitely taking advantage and enjoying playing Napoleon. Most of these ‘orders’ are strong recommendations.
If most of these "orders" are really just "recommendations", then "orders' are unnecessary, the recommendations are having the desired effects.

How do recommendations, vs orders, lead to "disastrous" results...?
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
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Old 04-14-2020, 07:26 AM
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STORM2 STORM2 is offline
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https://www.ncsl.org/research/health...lth-chart.aspx

Is this the Constitution you folks studied....or are there two?

Last edited by STORM2; 04-14-2020 at 07:29 AM.
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  #24  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:28 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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No shortage of posturing and ineptitude in many cases.

But insofar as ordering people to do this and that in the places that are doing it. They should at least be able to do this within the framework of existing law. Most places already have laws in place such as creating a public nuisance laws, reckless endangerment laws etc. These could readily be used to enforce certain quarantine measures. A much more pragmatic approach than just telling people "you better do this or we will send the mean meanies after you." All of these Governor's have legal counsel (paid by us). They have no excuse.

The constitutionality of such laws can be debated forever. But they are on the books and currently enforceable.
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  #25  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:35 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
If most of these "orders" are really just "recommendations", then "orders' are unnecessary, the recommendations are having the desired effects.

How do recommendations, vs orders, lead to "disastrous" results...?
. You are right. It is not gonna be without mistakes, but it is the best way for our republic. Leadership is gonna rise. I am optimistic.
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