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  #26  
Old 04-28-2020, 03:13 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Yes, Cooper and friends called it the 9mm Super; .223 brass cut off and loaded HOT.
A 7" barrel in a Commander didn't hurt, either.
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  #27  
Old 04-29-2020, 07:22 AM
glider glider is offline
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I would be curious to know what the safe pressure would be in a 9x19 if the brass was cut down Winchester 9x23 brass. I'm going to get another barrel fitted but it is interesting. Powder capacity might hold you back. I bet someone has done this.
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  #28  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:58 AM
glider glider is offline
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I just ordered a 38 Super barrel and bushing from Bar-Sto. I bought the drop in which may need some minor fitting. They had it in stock so shouldn't be long getting here, I've never fit a barrel before but they said if needed it would be very minor and they enclosed directions . They also said to call and they'd walk me thru it if needed. Nice people. Not cheap but it does come with a fitted bushing.
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2020, 11:23 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
I would be curious to know what the safe pressure would be in a 9x19 if the brass was cut down Winchester 9x23 brass. I'm going to get another barrel fitted but it is interesting. Powder capacity might hold you back. I bet someone has done this.
The tolerated pressure would be about the same.
The question is, how would you know when you got there? I know of no published data for 9mm P at 55,000 psi.
The closest I know would be to search on Benos and see what is being done in 9mm Major for USPSA Open Division. That would get you a 125 gr bullet to 1320+ fps or a 147 to 1123.
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  #30  
Old 04-29-2020, 12:16 PM
glider glider is offline
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I suppose you would watch for pressure signs, flattened primers, bulged cases etc.. I did learn something talking to bar-sto , I asked what they would charge to ream a 9mm barrel for 38 Super. They said they couldn't do it because the 9 is just a little bit fatter than a 38Super, just enough that they wouldn't be happy with the 38 Super fit.
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  #31  
Old 04-29-2020, 12:53 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
I suppose you would watch for pressure signs, flattened primers, bulged cases etc..
NOOOO. Subjective "pressure signs" don't show up until you are far overloaded.

Quote:
I did learn something talking to bar-sto , I asked what they would charge to ream a 9mm barrel for 38 Super. They said they couldn't do it because the 9 is just a little bit fatter than a 38Super, just enough that they wouldn't be happy with the 38 Super fit.
It's been done, but you would be on the edge of tolerances and cutting into safety margins for little purpose.
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  #32  
Old 04-30-2020, 12:43 AM
Rock185 Rock185 is offline
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J.W., I did some experimenting with Col. Cooper's Super 9/"Super Cooper" cartridge back in the day.
I trimmed .223 cases to .900" and got to 1625 FPS with a 115 grain bullet in a 5" barrel before I decided that was good enough. Experimenters using Col. Cooper's actual gun, with a barrel an inch, or was it 2", longer achieved higher numbers. I have little doubt that the 9X23 Winchester could achieve equal ballistics...
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Last edited by Rock185; 04-30-2020 at 12:46 AM.
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  #33  
Old 04-30-2020, 09:28 AM
TRX302 TRX302 is offline
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First: will your 9mm slide accept a .38 Super case head? The modern trend is to make the breechface wide enough to take .40, but you never know...

Then: if you're going convertible... why not plan for *both* 9x23 and .38 Super? It's just a barrel and maybe an extractor. Heck, go nuts and add .30 Tokarev too; muzzle energy on some of that is right up in Super territory.
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  #34  
Old 04-30-2020, 10:31 AM
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.30 Tokarev/Mauser; too long?
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  #35  
Old 04-30-2020, 10:55 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Yes.
For a while you could buy a Tok barrel for a Super but the OAL is really too long. There were all sorts of adaptations, five rounds at a slant, magazines squeezed to gain a smidgen of length, bullets deep seated. A lot of Iron Curtain Surplus called for a stout mainspring to fire SMG primers.
Of course all that could be managed by handloading but most of the customers were more interested in shooting Slobbovian Surplus than tailoring handloads.
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2020, 07:32 AM
glider glider is offline
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I received my 38 Super barrel from Bar-Sto . There is a little fitting that must be done. The sides of the hood need to be filed down and possibly the top of the hood. I'll need to fit the sides before I will know about the top. Is it normal for the sides to be to long ? I've never fit a barrel before but it does seem pretty straight forward, I'll take it very slowly and check fit a lot. Any advise ?
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  #37  
Old 05-03-2020, 08:44 AM
Sailormilan2 Sailormilan2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
I suppose you would watch for pressure signs, flattened primers, bulged cases etc.. I did learn something talking to bar-sto , I asked what they would charge to ream a 9mm barrel for 38 Super. They said they couldn't do it because the 9 is just a little bit fatter than a 38Super, just enough that they wouldn't be happy with the 38 Super fit.
It's not that the 9mm is "fatter" than the 38 Super, but that the case is a tapered case. The mouth of the 9mm is about .003" smaller in diameter than that on the 38 Super, and the base of the 9mm is about .010" larger in diameter than the 38 Super's(nominal figures). So, because it is tapered, a 38 Super reamer will not clean up a chamber, and the base of the case will be unsupported to a degree,
You could change a 9mm barrel into a 9x23 simply by running a 9x23 chambering reamer in and lengthening the chamber.

Last edited by Sailormilan2; 05-04-2020 at 07:35 AM.
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  #38  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:28 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glider View Post
I read in Handloader magazine that starline 9x23 brass isn't as thick as Winchester 9x23 brass and the Winchester brass could be safely loaded to higher pressure. The Starline brass is readily available, I don't know about the Winchester brass. I have also read that if using Starline brass no extractor changes would need to be made, all you need is a recoil spring and barrel. That is very appealing. To have the option of a fine range gun or carry gun in a pistol like the D.W. PM9 would be pretty nice. I have a Kimber compact 45 ACP that I really like for carry, I don't need to do this but what does that have to do with it LOL.
Thickness is not the only way to make a stronger case.

A few extra strikes in case forming will work harden it nicely.
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  #39  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:48 PM
Rock185 Rock185 is offline
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glider, I've fit several 1911 barrels. Yes, common for the hood to be too wide and too long to just drop in. Even some of BarStos semi-drop-in barrels may require considerable fitting. I recommend Kuhnhausen's book or similar before you touch file to metal. Go slow, make sure the barrel is level in the slide before you start filing. There are guides for this. Once you get the hood width right, you want the hood length such that the barrel will just snap into battery when you're done. I recommend breaking the rear corners of the hood. I use a try/drop-inn/loose bushing until you get the barrel fitted to the slide. Then you can check for barrel springing,etc. with the BarSto bushing. Then comes the barrel feet,etc. Have fun.
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  #40  
Old 05-09-2020, 12:27 AM
Slim Pigguns Slim Pigguns is offline
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I have 3 .38 Super pistols. The Rock Island and the Kimber will both chamber 9x23 factory and reloads. The Colt will not. I had a smith look over the Kimber and upgraded to a 23lb recoil spring for factory Win ammo and use an 18lb for my lighter hand loads.
Pete
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  #41  
Old 05-09-2020, 02:00 AM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Pigguns View Post
I have 3 .38 Super pistols. The Rock Island and the Kimber will both chamber 9x23 factory and reloads. The Colt will not. I had a smith look over the Kimber
There's more to it than the chamber. Did he check the freebore length? It differ significantly between 38S and 9x23 and is critical to being able to safely shoot 9x23. 38S is typically about .060" while 9x23 is spec'd at .100" minimum. Any less than that will cause trouble sooner or later, but probably sooner.
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  #42  
Old 05-09-2020, 04:31 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Case comparisons of 9mm vs. .38 super.....

Quote:
I did learn something talking to bar-sto , I asked what they would charge to ream a 9mm barrel for 38 Super. They said they couldn't do it because the 9 is just a little bit fatter than a 38Super, just enough that they wouldn't be happy with the 38 Super fit.

The 9mm case is tapered, and has a diameter of .391" near the base, and .380" at the mouth. The .38 super is a straight walled case with a diameter of .384" So yes, the 9mm case is fatter near the base than the .38 super.....if Bar Sto doesn't think it is a good idea, I would heed their advice.....

I have never had a 1911 9mm breech face that would not accept the .38 super round..... Most 1911 slides are sold as 9mm/.38super......
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  #43  
Old 05-09-2020, 01:41 PM
TRX302 TRX302 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
For a while you could buy a Tok barrel for a Super but the OAL is really too long.
Yes, correct milspec ammo was long enough it never worked very well. The lure of dirt-cheap Commie surplus ammo proved "cheap is a quality overcoming many faults", though.

Some guys ran their ammo through the seating die to set the bullets back to a more-1911-friendly OAL. And now that 7.62x25 isn't cheap any more, you can just load your own ammo from components. It won't be any cheaper than 9x23 or .38 Super, but it's still a lot of fun.
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  #44  
Old 05-10-2020, 06:45 AM
glider glider is offline
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It was becoming obvious that I wasn't going to be where I wanted to be. There actually was a lot of fitting needed so I did the only reasonable thing for me to do. I sent the pistol and barrel to Bar-Sto to let the real pro do it. I will pick up a beater some day and try this again but I'm not going to butcher up a Dan Wesson PM9. I would like for the 38 Super barrel to be at least as accurate as the 9mm barrel is and that will require a very good fit. I have a new appreciation for the work the pros do and that's a good thing.
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