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  #26  
Old 03-30-2020, 12:17 AM
peacebutready peacebutready is offline
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Originally Posted by Old Grey Hare View Post
Being an old purist curmudgeon, I'll say Colt.

Slackening my standards a bit, RIA, SA. I refuse to say their full names, because our Government saw fit to shut down the real Springfield Armory and Rock Island Armory, and the names were bought by people who have bits of their guns made overseas. Keeps the price down, but ask yourself... is the $200 price cut worth it? I refuse to even say their name. But, I understand they're popular due to price, and I"ve shot a friend's RIA plain-jane GI model, and it ran like a watch. SHot nice, too...
Thanks. My experience with RIA, admittingly 1 firearm, wasn't good. I'm wondering what kind of work your friend's RIA had, whether it made a trip back or was worked on by a 'smith local to him.


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Originally Posted by Starship Enterpris View Post
Back in 1990 I was a Sergeant in the 60 Pct. of the NYPD. An older, vastly more experienced Sergeant transferred in. We worked the same shifts and developed a friendship. Turns out we were both "gun guys". My answer to the question was a Beretta 92. His was the iconic 1911...
Did the NYPD let LEOs carry the 92 and 1911 back then? Or perhaps the higher ranking officers? I acquired the impression they are strict about what can be carried.


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Originally Posted by jtq View Post
...A few years ago, SIG came out with their Legion Series, next Wilson came out with their Beretta Brigadier Tactical, and that was followed by Langdon Beretta's that gave folks a higher end metal framed option without going into the $2,000 + 1911 range.
Are they of higher quality than the regular versions of those models?
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  #27  
Old 03-30-2020, 08:05 AM
jtq jtq is online now
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Originally Posted by peacebutready View Post
Are they of higher quality than the regular versions of those models?
There may be some quality improvements on some of the models, but predominately, they are feature sets that raise the price.

For instance, the Wilson Beretta 92G Brigadier Tactical is basically a slightly prettier version of the Beretta 92G-SD, with some homage to the Beretta 92G Elite II. One key feature the Wilson gun has that the other two offered (other than the Brigadier slide) was the "G" Model feature, which is a decocker only, with no safety. At the time Wilson introduced their Beretta gun, it may have been the only factory new option for a "G" Model Beretta.

The 92G-SD is a gun that wasn't consistently in the Beretta line-up, and when it was, it sold in the $1,300 range, which is similar to the Wilson price. The 92G Elite II, had long been discontinued by Beretta, and had earned near cult status on the used market, often bringing prices significantly over its' new retail price. One rumor was that Bill Wilson was buying up some of the better examples of the 92G Elite II's.

Last edited by jtq; 03-30-2020 at 08:12 AM.
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  #28  
Old 03-30-2020, 09:23 AM
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Hilton Yam's answer to this question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wMD4z3VzFg
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  #29  
Old 03-30-2020, 10:28 AM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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I hope the distain for non steel autos doesn't carry over to alloy frame 1911s. I had an alloy frame years ago that I wish I had back. It was a peach full size 5" 1911.
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  #30  
Old 03-30-2020, 07:21 PM
johnireland johnireland is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
With the 10-round limit in place interest in high-capacity 9mm pistols waned, except for some models like Glocks for which tons of pre-ban magazines were still available. The 1911 did benefit from it, but so did 10-shot .40 S&W pistols as well as revolvers.

Once the ban was lifted not only did high-cap 9mm pistols make a comeback, but the demand for their ammo coupled with the high production rate of 9mm ammunition to meet the needs of the War on Terror meant that prices dropped like a rock. Today interest in the 1911 is on a steady decline, due in no small part to the fact that everybody wants a modern high-cap pistol or lightweight carry gun instead. If we end up with another magazine limit however I suspect either the .45 1911 will again increase in popularity and/or small 10-shot 9mms like the SIG P365 and Glock 48 will reign supreme.
I also think that the technical advancement in the 9mm round has made it far more effective, and more acceptable stopping power from 9mm has hurt the classic reason for the .45. I think high capacity is a bad excuse for poor marksmanship. Clint Smith has commented on how more effective (hits per rounds fired) police were when they had revolvers compared to the spray and pray tactics and results of the police using high capacity guns now. I would venture most police cannot really shoot well. The Barettas that attract me are the 50s and 60s 9mm models...very concealable but meant for up close work.
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  #31  
Old 03-31-2020, 08:51 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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I do shoot a 1911 marginally better than my polymer guns. At my advanced age I am trying to get over my aversion to carrying a gun with a safety. A discussion for another day. I have Dan Wesson .45 Commander Bobtail I strap on for rare occasions and just ordered a 9mm Kimber Aegis which brings me to what I think has also helped the 1911 popularity recently. I think many people to the dismay of many find the 9mm 1911 very much a good gun to shoot and carry.

Somewhat lighter, less recoil, cheaper to shoot, and almost always a barrel ramp to better shoot JHPs make it a very nice alternative while still getting a great trigger and ageless design.
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  #32  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:13 AM
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Rosco Benson Rosco Benson is offline
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Way back when, shooters didn't have a lot of choices if they wanted a decent autopistol. The 1911 and the P-35 were really about the only choices. The major/minor scoring in IPSC pretty much caused everyone to go for the 1911, rather than the 9mm P-35. Also, the P-35's trigger will never be as good as a tuned 1911's. Also, if you were going to use the pistol for defensive purposes, .45ACP was preferred to 9mm, since available ammo was mostly FMJ or crappy JHP that wouldn't expand.

Generally, one would send one's pistol off to a gunsmith to get decent sights and a trigger job. I recall sending pistols off for work after just function testing them with a couple magazines.

Today's shooters have a dizzying array of pistols to choose from. Most all of them have highly visible sights and usable trigger right out of the box. It is truly the golden era of pistols.

The 1911 remains popular due to its trigger and overall feel and ergonomics. I don't think the magazine capacity ban caused any upswing of interest in the 1911. It did drive the development of some small pistols that were designed around smaller capacity magazines (like the Glock 26/27 and so forth).

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  #33  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:42 AM
warbird1 warbird1 is offline
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Originally Posted by JLS1911 View Post
I think it might have something to do with feel, ease of fire and looks. To me, a "plastic" gun really doesn't feel like like a gun. Don't get me wrong there are tons of polymer guns that are great tools but I haven't had one in my hands yet that actually felt like a gun. Triggers on a 1911 are just so easy and crisp it makes them much easier to shoot and stay on target. And let's face it, they really are way cooler looking than most any other pistols out there. Of course this is just my opinion but these are just three of the reasons that come to mind. I could go on and on but I won't bore everyone with my old man soap box theory. Be safe and well my friends.
Absolutely agree with the above.
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  #34  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by johnireland View Post
I also think that the technical advancement in the 9mm round has made it far more effective, and more acceptable stopping power from 9mm has hurt the classic reason for the .45.
That is true. While all calibers have benefited from improved bullet technology over the past 20 years, the 9mm seems to have benefited more than others and as a result a lot of LE agencies who previously used the .40 and .45 are now switching back to the 9mm.
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  #35  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:19 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
That is true. While all calibers have benefited from improved bullet technology over the past 20 years, the 9mm seems to have benefited more than others and as a result a lot of LE agencies who previously used the .40 and .45 are now switching back to the 9mm.
While I agree that bullet technology has positively affected all common pistol calibers, i think the resurgence in 9mm is due more to cost, capacity, and ease of handling than in radically increased ballistic performance. 9mm has gone from marginal to acceptable with better bullet design- and its still manageable by almost all.
The decline (really the failure, you can't give them away anymore) of the .40 SW wasn't the result of a ballistic or bullet design failure, but of trying to stuff it in pistols designed around the 9mm. It pushes the design limits of most 9mm pistols, and generally males for a less pleasant shooting experience- its often described as "snappy". Its like trying to drop an 800hp, 1200 ft/lb, build up Cummings 6BT into a Toyota Camry- you're going to break things. Could it be done? Probably- however, you're going to have to re engineer everything- suspension, framework, transmission, driveline, differentials, axles- from the ground up.
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  #36  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:38 AM
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I've tried to like the .40 S&W and never could. It was too snappy like you said, and in a 9mm-sized pistol I'd rather have two extra rounds in a more controllable firearm. In recent years a lot of folks have started to agree, and when I see .40 pistols for sale they're usually in the used gun case.
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  #37  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:55 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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I totally agree with your conclusion that 9mm is popular because of cost, capacity, and ease of shooting, but like 10mm, I believe the 40 will return. I personally think the 40 is a great round. If you were going into a fight, what would you rather be carrying, a Glock 17 full up with 9mm or a Glock 22 fully loaded with 40? I'll take the 40 any day. "Snappy" is an apt description when describing the recoil sensation, but it's nothing unmanageable. Think 45 +P in a LW Commander. Probably not even that stout.

As far as the analogy of the Camry with 800hp, (I conveniently left out the 1200 ft-lb.s of torque), I have a Challenger Hellcat Redeye with 797hp. Yes, the suspension, driveline, and transmission are upgraded from the factory, and it's pretty tame until you stand on it. But when you summon up all 797 horses, it's freaking brutal. I'd compare the 9mm to the 6 cylinder Challenger and the 40 to the normally aspirated Challenger hemi. My car is like a hopped up 10mm when you put it to the floor. If fact, check that, make it a S&W 50 magnum.
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  #38  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:18 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
I totally agree with your conclusion that 9mm is popular because of cost, capacity, and ease of shooting, but like 10mm, I believe the 40 will return. I personally think the 40 is a great round. If you were going into a fight, what would you rather be carrying, a Glock 17 full up with 9mm or a Glock 22 fully loaded with 40? I'll take the 40 any day. "Snappy" is an apt description when describing the recoil sensation, but it's nothing unmanageable. Think 45 +P in a LW Commander. Probably not even that stout.

As far as the analogy of the Camry with 800hp, (I conveniently left out the 1200 ft-lb.s of torque), I have a Challenger Hellcat Redeye with 797hp. Yes, the suspension, driveline, and transmission are upgraded from the factory, and it's pretty tame until you stand on it. But when you summon up all 797 horses, it's freaking brutal. I'd compare the 9mm to the 6 cylinder Challenger and the 40 to the normally aspirated Challenger hemi. My car is like a hopped up 10mm when you put it to the floor. If fact, check that, make it a S&W 50 magnum.
My car analogy was about putting "power"- an engine or a round/caliber- into an unsuitable host or platform, not the "performance". The vast majority of .40 pistols were essentially designed as 9mms, with a larger bore. Little, if any, considerations, seems to have been given to bolstering frames, recoil systems, chamber support (at least early on), etc. You're putting a powerplant into a chassis not designed for it. From an organizational/ procurement perspective, the wear on the .40 pistol in a plastic wonder-9 frame is enough to remove it from consideration. Metal, service sized, over engineering for 9mm (Baretta 9X series, maybe BHP) pistols are probably the exception.

I agree, the .40 isn't particularly "unmanageable" from a personal perspective- but I'm not an HR nug in an LE agency that has to produce numbers showing that a 5 foot nothing, 90lbs with rocks in her pockets woman can qualify with a service pistol as well as a 6 foot 2, 220 pound man...
So, less cost, easier training and usage across a broader spectrum of people, less maintenance, better individual performance of users, better capacity, negligibleballisticdifferences- is it any wonder that 9mm is king of agency issued sidearms? And where agencies go, the public follows...
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  #39  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:35 PM
jtq jtq is online now
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
From an organizational/ procurement perspective, the wear on the .40 pistol in a plastic wonder-9 frame is enough to remove it from consideration. Metal, service sized, over engineering for 9mm (Baretta 9X series, maybe BHP) pistols are probably the exception.
Are you using the Beretta 96 and BHP as examples of guns with good durability records with the .40 S&W round?

The Beretta 96 has poor durability reputation with the .40 S&W round, in spite of Beretta's efforts to tweak the 92 (9mm gun) to handle the .40 S&W round, from the slanted dustcover, to the Brigadier slide, to the buffer in the current 96A1. Likewise, the Hi-Power, even with the change to a cast frame doesn't have a strong durability reputation with the .40 S&W.

Conversely, the S&W M&P, HK USP, Beretta PX4, are a few of the polymer guns designed from the ground up as .40 S&W guns. All three of those have very solid durability reputations with the .40 S&W.
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  #40  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:57 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by jtq View Post
Are you using the Beretta 96 and BHP as examples of guns with good durability records with the .40 S&W round?

The Beretta 96 has poor durability reputation with the .40 S&W round, in spite of Beretta's efforts to tweak the 92 (9mm gun) to handle the .40 S&W round, from the slanted dustcover, to the Brigadier slide, to the buffer in the current 96A1. Likewise, the Hi-Power, even with the change to a cast frame doesn't have a strong durability reputation with the .40 S&W.

Conversely, the S&W M&P, HK USP, Beretta PX4, are a few of the polymer guns designed from the ground up as .40 S&W guns. All three of those have very solid durability reputations with the .40 S&W.
I was making assumptions that very large, heavy, metal 9mms would most likely transition to .40SW well. It would seem that I was mistaken....

Regardless, .40SW has pretty much gone the way of the dodo in professional circles, and that has adversely its popularity in private/recreational ones...
Take any 2 identical guns, one in 9mm and the other in 40SW, and try to sell them... which will sell for the most, in the shortest amount of time...?
Good, bad, otherwise- doesn't matter. .40SW has become almost a niche caliber, with close competitors that perform the same function essentially as well, or better.
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  #41  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:32 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post

Regardless, .40SW has pretty much gone the way of the dodo in professional circles, and that has adversely its popularity in private/recreational ones...
Take any 2 identical guns, one in 9mm and the other in 40SW, and try to sell them... which will sell for the most, in the shortest amount of time...?
Good, bad, otherwise- doesn't matter. .40SW has become almost a niche caliber, with close competitors that perform the same function essentially as well, or better.
The problem w/ the .40 is that it doesn't fill a role or a need, unless you want a smaller gun that carries a few more rounds than an 1911, is as effective as a .45ACP, which makes it more effective than the Wonder-9.

I have carried a .45ACP for a living for >40-years (although there is a period when I carried a .357mag). I bought a custom BHP in .40 because I wanted a BHP, but wanted it in a more effective caliber than the 9mm. The gun and round are an absolute joy to shoot and carry, and the recoil is just as manageable as the .45ACP. Brass is plentiful, as are bullets and powder, so it gets shot and carried a lot.

Why the 9mm is more popular recently even though it is not as good a defensive round as either the .40cal or .45ACP would take me awhile to tell, but it is centered on the FBI w/ their PC, inclusive, affirmative action policies. These policies forced their policy-makers to find a PC caliber their women and girly-men agents could qualify with. The fact that the FBI is an investigative, LE-only agency w/no police responsibilities is irrelevant to them. They love to lecture other, (in their own minds) lesser Police agencies how they should act and be armed. And thusly, too many of us are forced to put-up w/ a low-recoil, inexpensive to shoot caliber that masquerades as an effective, SD/Police caliber. Sad.
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Last edited by Kevin Rohrer; 03-31-2020 at 01:46 PM.
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  #42  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
If you were going into a fight, what would you rather be carrying, a Glock 17 full up with 9mm or a Glock 22 fully loaded with 40? I'll take the 40 any day.
Okay, you take the .40 G22 and I'll take the 9mm G17. My own experience has shown that I can shoot the 9mm far faster and more accurately than the .40, especially out of a Glock. It wasn't too bad out of a Smith 4006 I had, but that thing weighed half as much as a Sherman tank.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #43  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:11 PM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Okay, you take the .40 G22 and I'll take the 9mm G17. My own experience has shown that I can shoot the 9mm far faster and more accurately than the .40, especially out of a Glock. It wasn't too bad out of a Smith 4006 I had, but that thing weighed half as much as a Sherman tank.
Okay, but let's fight on the same team. Meaning we can fight along side each other, not against each other.
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  #44  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:28 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Most other pistol designs arrive with much marketing effort behind them, testimonials, articles in gun magazines, etc.

But most such designs have their moment of glory...and soon something else is the newest hot ticket.

On the other hand, the 1911 remains well-regarded among knowledgeable, experienced firearm enthusiasts, and is owned and used for many purposes. Decade after decade. The USMC M45, even though not deployed in great numbers, was further proof of the 1911s efficacy as a modern combat weapon, despite it being a 100+ year-old design.

Several years back American Rifleman had an article on the greatest pistols of all-time. The 1911 easily stood alone at the top.
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  #45  
Old 04-01-2020, 07:31 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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Okay, you take the .40 G22 and I'll take the 9mm G17. My own experience has shown that I can shoot the 9mm far faster and more accurately than the .40, especially out of a Glock. It wasn't too bad out of a Smith 4006 I had, but that thing weighed half as much as a Sherman tank.
Or on opposite teams.
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  #46  
Old 04-01-2020, 08:55 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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I never really understood the "snappy" complaint about the .40 because I never noticed it. I started shooting a .40 because it made major in USPSA and I would take every point possible. Also it was easier to load than a 9mm. One of my oldest guns a Sig P226 has over 25,000 rounds with NEVER a failure of any kind shooting .4o's. To save a little weight all metal three of my EDC's are H&K .40's.

A side benefit of .40's is almost every time there is an ammo shortage, like now, you can almost always find .40's while 9mm's disappear quickly. Plus I can take out my .40 barrel, put in a .357 Sig barrel and shoot another great round.
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  #47  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:28 AM
MichaelE MichaelE is offline
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Well, you certainly won't notice it in a S&W 4006. That feels more like the recoil from a 1911 shooting .45ACP. More like what I describe as a 'rolling push' than snappy recoil.
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  #48  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:14 AM
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The 4006 didn't weigh any more than a steel-framed 1911, but combined with its blocky profile it felt bigger and heavier than it actually was. It was a pretty decent shooter though, as virtually all 3rd-gen Smiths are.
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  #49  
Old 04-01-2020, 03:26 PM
mdellis49 mdellis49 is offline
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Just need to be introduced

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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Unfortunately the younger shooters don't appreciate the 1911 like we older shooters do. It wasn't the service pistol during their watch, is seldom seen in action films and just doesn't hold enough ammo to satisfy their short attention spans.
Took my 22 year old grandson out to shoot a variety of 9mms 2 years ago. He was about to turn 21 and was going to buy his first handgun. Nothing more personal except maybe your spouse than your choice in handguns. He had read a bunch of internet chatter that proclaimed the Sig 226/229 to be what he should own. I don't have either but did have a G19 G26 CZPCR Kahr CW9 and a Kimber Stainless Target 9MM. I had him shoot them in no particular order and just kept my mouth shut while he shot at an IDPA target 10 yds away. The targets spoke for themselves, the 1911 Target was by far the easiest for him to shoot accurately. A distant second was the G19. He was sold on a 1911 and proclaimed that would be his first. I also told him that given enough time with each model that he would be able to master them as well but the point is that the youth can make up their own minds given the opportunity to shoot. We probably all need to take a young lad or lassie out to the range and introduce them to our wonderful pass time.
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  #50  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:17 PM
agabriel agabriel is offline
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Originally Posted by mdellis49 View Post
Took my 22 year old grandson out to shoot a variety of 9mms 2 years ago. He was about to turn 21 and was going to buy his first handgun. Nothing more personal except maybe your spouse than your choice in handguns. He had read a bunch of internet chatter that proclaimed the Sig 226/229 to be what he should own. I don't have either but did have a G19 G26 CZPCR Kahr CW9 and a Kimber Stainless Target 9MM. I had him shoot them in no particular order and just kept my mouth shut while he shot at an IDPA target 10 yds away. The targets spoke for themselves, the 1911 Target was by far the easiest for him to shoot accurately. A distant second was the G19. He was sold on a 1911 and proclaimed that would be his first. I also told him that given enough time with each model that he would be able to master them as well but the point is that the youth can make up their own minds given the opportunity to shoot. We probably all need to take a young lad or lassie out to the range and introduce them to our wonderful pass time.
Your experience makes alot of sense because of the trigger setup. A 1911 trigger breaks far better than anything - especially stock. There is less room to screw it up. With that said, have any of the other guns he shot had any work? For instance a Sig 226 with a grayguns trigger and an SRT sear (more or less a legion) can feel pretty close to a custom 1911, especially if you understand how to use the minimal trigger reset in SA.
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