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  #26  
Old 01-05-2020, 08:45 AM
drail drail is offline
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"This man was a current Highway Patrolman and the total disregard for muzzle discipline was annoying." Bingo. As a retired NRA Instructor the most dangerous people I have ever seen on a live range were all L.E guys. One actually put a round between my feet and him and all of the other cops just laughed about it. I really don't think I have ever met an L.E. officer who had the slightest idea what muzzle discipline even means. They do not seem to be taught any firearms safety rules at all. If you correct them they just mutter " Calm down man - it's not loaded..."
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  #27  
Old 01-05-2020, 11:14 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Some years ago I took the Florida class which was then lecture only, no shooting. There were some guns for demonstration of action types and I didn't notice any bad handling.

Although "training" is not required here in Alabama, the PD used to offer a series of three voluntary classes.
Level 1 was mostly safety and legality, with about a box of ammo expended. Similar to what I have seen described as common in mandatory license states.

Level 2 was a short refresher on safety and a good bit more square range time. Followed by a flashlight and rubber gun "house clearing" of the range classroom building. The day culminated in a sneak through the department's shoot house with shoot and no-shoot targets around. Lesson learned, solo house clearing is to be avoided.

Level 3, after safety warnings and square range warmup, saw shooting from different positions (supine done dryfire to avoid toe damage). High point of the daywas a trip through the shoot house with Sims pistol versus threat and non-threat actors. Conclusion was a short run n gun like a medium length USPSA Field Course with knockdown and paper targets.

The lead instructor had some competition experience and handled the shooting phases in a manner I was familiar and comfortable with. Nobody got covered or shot at except with the rubber gun or Sims.

Too bad they don't still offer the series. It didn't turn Jane Q. Public into a gunfighter but it was a lot of basics for $50 a class.
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  #28  
Old 01-05-2020, 11:19 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Some years ago I took the Florida class which was then lecture only, no shooting. There were some guns for demonstration of action types and I didn't notice any bad handling.

Although "training" is not required here in Alabama, the PD used to offer a series of three voluntary classes.
Level 1 was mostly safety and legality, with about a box of ammo expended. Similar to what I have seen described as common in mandatory license states.

Level 2 was a short refresher on safety and a good bit more square range time. Followed by a flashlight and rubber gun "house clearing" of the range classroom building. The day culminated in a sneak through the department's shoot house with shoot and no-shoot targets around. Lesson learned, solo house clearing is to be avoided.

Level 3, after safety warnings and square range warmup, saw shooting from different positions (supine done dryfire to avoid toe damage). High point of the daywas a trip through the shoot house with Sims pistol versus threat and non-threat actors. Conclusion was a short run n gun like a medium length USPSA Field Course with knockdown and paper targets.

The lead instructor had some competition experience and handled the shooting phases in a manner I was familiar and comfortable with. Nobody got covered or shot at except with the rubber gun or Sims.

Too bad they don't still offer the series. It didn't turn Jane Q. Public into a gunfighter but it was a lot of basics for $50 a class.
I know and can understand why people may dislike mandatory this or mandatory that but I know I'm glad I got the required training I received in the military. I'm far from being an expert but I do feel more comfortable and a bit more confident because of it.
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  #29  
Old 01-05-2020, 11:29 AM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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My instructors have always spent more time with the people who needed it. I've only seen one person "Wash-Out" entirely.

Now there's two opposing schools of thought on these shooting test requirements. And I agree with BOTH.

1. Carrying is a RIGHT guaranteed by the 2A so no license, permit or testing should be required.

2. That plenty of potential CCW folks are a hazard to the community with their lack of safety knowledge & skill. So they NEED instruction before carrying.

BOTH of these are undeniably true.
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  #30  
Old 01-05-2020, 11:56 AM
rjinaz85308 rjinaz85308 is offline
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I got my CCW in Arizona many years ago when they first became available. At that time it was a 2 day class that included the law, the concepts of concealed carry, shooting, and then field stripping your gun and cleaning it.

When it came time for renewal it was a 4 hour course, that refreshed the law and then a shoot/don't shoot session. Next 4 years was the same. The next time was very similar. This session though had an arrogant instructor, but at least he was safe and correct in what he taught. We had a couple of people in this class that had never shot their gun before. When he realized this he did not let them qualify and told them to take some lessons and come back when they had some idea what they were doing.

Now Arizona only wants your money with no class or training of any kind. Too bad it has gotten to this. With some states not requiring anything other than money we will never see and national carry certificate.
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  #31  
Old 01-05-2020, 12:02 PM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjinaz85308 View Post
I got my CCW in Arizona many years ago when they first became available. At that time it was a 2 day class that included the law, the concepts of concealed carry, shooting, and then field stripping your gun and cleaning it.

When it came time for renewal it was a 4 hour course, that refreshed the law and then a shoot/don't shoot session. Next 4 years was the same. The next time was very similar. This session though had an arrogant instructor, but at least he was safe and correct in what he taught. We had a couple of people in this class that had never shot their gun before. When he realized this he did not let them qualify and told them to take some lessons and come back when they had some idea what they were doing.

Now Arizona only wants your money with no class or training of any kind. Too bad it has gotten to this. With some states not requiring anything other than money we will never see and national carry certificate.
It's partly gotten to this also because there's no way people today would stand for that so called arrogant instructor. If you don't believe me, you just try telling somebody no today and see where that gets you. There are probably more than just a few lawyers waiting to take that case. Fewer people care because it's also more difficult to do the right thing when doing so is so strongly discouraged or it's in effect no longer the right thing because that would just get you in trouble.

People who received participation trophies for losing don't react well when they are told they are wrong or they can't do something.

Last edited by Dddrees; 01-05-2020 at 12:24 PM.
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  #32  
Old 01-05-2020, 12:51 PM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Instructors are like doctors, lawyers, consultants and accountants....

Get more than one opinion.
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  #33  
Old 01-05-2020, 01:19 PM
Nytcrawler93 Nytcrawler93 is offline
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We had a guy shoot his own hand and then throw the revolver (obviously ready to fire) up in the air and on to a counter where it was pointed at the property owner. He has since lost his license but the idiot passed that day.....so your mileage may vary and it is good to have solid references.


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  #34  
Old 01-05-2020, 01:32 PM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Instructors are like doctors, lawyers, consultants and accountants....

Get more than one opinion.
People, both bad and good.
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  #35  
Old 01-05-2020, 03:04 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Dddrees --------------- It doesn't matter how people react to being told NO. The DMV licensing department, colleges, etc. fail people on tests every day.

How they react to failing is their own problem. Not a concern of the entity.
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  #36  
Old 01-05-2020, 03:15 PM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Dddrees --------------- It doesn't matter how people react to being told NO. The DMV licensing department, colleges, etc. fail people on tests every day.

How they react to failing is their own problem. Not a concern of the entity.
Good point.


Still sounds that somethings a miss here however. No set standards, no real test maybe? Some states is that all you have to do is show up and breathe?
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  #37  
Old 01-05-2020, 04:00 PM
RED HORSE RED HORSE is offline
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Couple of thoughts. I was commander of an Air Force Reserve unit that had several members who were LEO's. They were all terrible shots and had little or no training.

More recently my 40 yr old daughter went for State mandated class. She sent me a text during the class saying the instructor didn't know what he was doing. When they advanced to the shooting portion of the class she started shooting as I had taught her for many years. The instructor told her she was doing everything wrong. She continued and out of the 20+ other students had by far the highest score of any of the students. Her instructor did say he guessed she was qualified.
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  #38  
Old 01-05-2020, 04:12 PM
alias5.56 alias5.56 is offline
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I remember when I was getting my CHL in the late 90's, the instructor was a prosecutor with the DA's office and a real douche. He didn't like the fact citizens owned guns and the more proficient you appeared the less he liked you, specifically me. I couldn't get a civil answer to my questions as his answers were condescending and down right insulting.

I asked what if someone threatened you with a knife, is that grounds for defending oneself with lethal force. In a mocking tone he answered "Alias, nobody's going to threaten you with a knife." At that point I had it and responded "Thats not my question." He shook his head and laughed and said "No" and then began talking about something else.

I interrupted him and said "Wait a minute, to try and make me look stupid, you're going to tell me and the rest of the class that a knife is not a deadly threat, even though if you pulled a knife on a cop you would get shot and it would be considered a justifiable response to a deadly threat."

He said "If you don't like my class, you don't have to take it." to which I responded, "It's a little late now, considering I've been here all day and already paid my money."

I said "I tell you what, I don't have any confidence in what you're teaching, I'll just get my money back and take the class with someone that knows what he's talking about." and got up and walked out.
I got my money back.

Last edited by alias5.56; 01-05-2020 at 04:19 PM.
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  #39  
Old 01-05-2020, 04:27 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
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Some real humdingers being spun up here......
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  #40  
Old 01-05-2020, 07:51 PM
coyotebuster coyotebuster is offline
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^^^^^
Exactly what I was thinking..
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  #41  
Old 01-05-2020, 09:47 PM
woody b woody b is offline
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Get your permit, move on and don't let a bad instructor get inside your head. He's going to keep on doing classes, doing the same things. What aggravates me is that we have to get a permit to exercise a RIGHT. FWIW I'll be renewing my concealed carry permit this year for the 5th time. (6 including the initial application) I was in one of the first classes offered in NC in 1995. Before that we couldn't legally carry a concealed weapon.
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  #42  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:56 AM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLord View Post
About par for the course. The guy who taught my class went on a LONG rant about California laws concerning lethal force, hitting all the BS rumors that the internet has to offer. Here's the problem...

A - He was patently WRONG about pretty much every "law" he said was so...
B - WE WEREN'T IN FREAKING CALIFORNIA ! ! !

I sent him an email with a link to the California laws an suggested he read the ACTUAL law rather than internet BS. He didn't appreciate that.

He never hit on the conditions necessary for lethal force in the state in which we were taking the class (OMG, are you kidding me!!).


He was safe though, I'll give him that. And he was polite, so kudo's there. Just wished he was informed.

He should stay out of Virginia.
We have NO statute laws on the use of lethal force.
Not a single one.
For anyone.
It is ALL case law.
Many of it older and from the state Supreme Court.
We only added a 'Court of Appeals' in the early 1970s.
Before that all appeals went to a Supreme Court Justice, and the Supreme Court them issued an opinion.
Many of the cases are painfully detailed.
We have 'Justifiable' and 'Excusable' homicide as the two classes of legitimate killing of another person.
And if you are in a location you are legally allowed to be you may meet deadly force with deadly force under a "reasonable man" fear of death or grave bodily injury.
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  #43  
Old 01-06-2020, 03:59 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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Most of these stories are no different than many "Chairborne" Commandos & Shuttlecraft Door Gunners we have posting on this forum regarding anything self defense, training, legal etc.
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  #44  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:42 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Most of these stories are no different than many "Chairborne" Commandos & Shuttlecraft Door Gunners we have posting on this forum regarding anything self defense, training, legal etc.
Ah yes the standard "crap on anyone" who doesn't share your particular idea or viewpoint of the week.

NEVER should believe someone who actually had something happen to them. And should NEVER believe someone had an experience that didn't mimic yours.
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  #45  
Old 01-07-2020, 03:19 PM
mjkortan mjkortan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
Ah yes the standard "crap on anyone" who doesn't share your particular idea or viewpoint of the week.

NEVER should believe someone who actually had something happen to them. And should NEVER believe someone had an experience that didn't mimic yours.
Exact reason why I was absent from this forum for so long and why they get such a bad name. 2 decades of experience as and infantry marine more hands on experience with weapons then I would venture to say a vast majority here ever had and yes I took a class with a sub par putz of a instructor 🙄. But hey itís a free country. Iím just happy itís done that check in the box is complete and I can soon legally exercise the right of which I defended.
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  #46  
Old 01-08-2020, 05:16 PM
EJC EJC is offline
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Originally Posted by mjkortan View Post
Finally got around to taking the class in my state. Now out of the 3 other cwpís Iíve held in different states this was the first time I had to take a training course, as I was exempt for military service. I have to say I was down right disappointed, concerned and frustrated at the lack of professionalism and safe handling practices by the instructor. This man was a current highway patrol man and the total disregard for muzzle discipline was annoying. All through out the class high continued to flag students blatantly flag himself and showed 0 concern for the safe handling of a weapon loaded or not.

What are others experiences with theses classes? I for one am extremely disappointed after todayís events.
Your problem may have been that your instructor was HWP. When I took my SC course several years ago, I took a private lesson and he just ran us through the legal section and spared us the range trip, although I was prepared to go through with the range part.
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  #47  
Old 01-08-2020, 05:16 PM
Sconie Sconie is offline
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Good that you said something. FWIW, the class that I took years ago here in Arizona was excellent.
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  #48  
Old 01-08-2020, 05:20 PM
Glock Holiday Glock Holiday is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
As a retired NRA Instructor the most dangerous people I have ever seen on a live range were all L.E guys.
I agree with you 100%. I think it's mostly getting complacent with firearms what with being around them daily..
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  #49  
Old 01-08-2020, 05:24 PM
jlag19 jlag19 is offline
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The only thing that an instructor ever did to bother me was that he would not show the class how he concealed carry when the course was a conceal carry renewal. He wanted to play like it was a secret and wanted to be cute about it. The request was not for him to pull the firearm out, but to demonstrate how he carries. Pretty ridiculous.
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  #50  
Old 01-08-2020, 05:55 PM
tamartin98 tamartin98 is offline
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Originally Posted by mjkortan View Post
All through out the class high continued to flag students blatantly flag himself and showed 0 concern for the safe handling of a weapon loaded or not.
Personally, I would notify the licensing agency. Be specific with the date and location of the training and hopefully the state agency will investigate and question the other students to confirm your story.

Notifying his supervisor at his police agency would be getting pissy, but if he is that reckless maybe Instructor Barney Fife should have to keep his bullet in his pocket.
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