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  #76  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:37 PM
MichaelE MichaelE is offline
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I agree also. I would not be comfortable knowing a bystander that has had absolutely no training, nor in many cases even fired the gun they choose to carry, is carry to protect him or herself at possibly mine or another's expense.

We're all gun people here and I think we take a lot of this stuff for granite because we've been doing it for so long it's second nature to most of us.

It's the non-gun people that choose to carry that worry me most.

I don't think training should be mandatory, but I do think that someone wanting to carry a firearm has enough sense to get some for their own benefit as well as an innocent bystander's.
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  #77  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:45 PM
jtq jtq is offline
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I was pretty sure this thread was going to morf from the odd guns folks brought to a concealed carry class to a thread about how much training we should have before being allowed to carry a weapon concealed.

In all the "how much training should we have before being allowed to conceal carry" threads, I always get the vibe from the "we need to require more training" folks, they seem to envision a shootout at the mall on a Saturday afternoon, or on Main Street at noon on a Monday between the concealed carrier and an evil perpetrator.

Conversely, I envision a deserted street/gas station/parking lot/driveway/etc., where this is more likely a one on one event.

The people I typically envisioning needing a concealed carry permit is the single woman/mom, who's ex-whatever, is now out of prison who has threatened her. Well, now she needs to get a concealed weapon for protection, but first she'll need a class and demonstrate proficiency.

That shouldn't be hard to schedule. Did someone mention they were required a 16 hour class. That should be easy. I'm sure those are scheduled every day, and they probably are taught on every block in every city.

Then she'll need to score at a certain proficiency level. That should be easy too. Putting 20 rounds into a 4" square at 50 yards with your J-Frame is just the kind of skill level you could expect as a recommended requirement from any of the Democratic candidates for president.

Hey, I'm all for people being competent with whatever tools they use, but requiring somebody to go through training and earn a certain level of proficiency that may take month's to accomplish is a bad idea when Susie's ex is probably going to show up in her driveway tomorrow.
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  #78  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:49 PM
Che Che is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Here in San Diego, CA at my CCW classes I have seen no "oddball" student guns.

This is probably because you must qualify with the gun (or guns, up to three) you plan on carrying.

They will be listed on your license by make & serial number.

You CANNOT carry a gun that you did not qualify with, or you will lose your license.

I can see the sense in that ...
That makes sense to me. For retired police officers or at least on my CCW it does not list what I am authorized. I know some retirees take advantage of it. They qual with a Glock 34 but carry the Glock 26, Glock 42 or Glock 43. Or a Beretta 9mm but carry the Beretta 25 ACP. S&W six inch but carry a S&W two inch.
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  #79  
Old 10-31-2019, 02:41 PM
Captain H Captain H is online now
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Most people that get a CCL never carry. I've seen groups of friends all take the course together for fun and since getting their license, never carry. My wife, while married to her ex, took the course with friends eleven years ago and she has never carried. She renews it every 4 years.
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  #80  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:30 PM
wrag wrag is offline
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I qualed with a colt .38 super... sadly had been too long since I had done much range shooting so I had to use 1 extra mag... need to get out more I reckon... Oh and I do carry... everywhere I go EXCEPT where posted like the VA n such...
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  #81  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:44 PM
RED HORSE RED HORSE is offline
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Here in Louisiana you must shoot 30 rounds with any handgun, demonstrating the ability to reload, you desire and it qualifies you to carry whatever you want. I normally shoot my .357 6" barrel Python just because it always attracts attention from the youngish instructors. But I have seen some strange show up at the 5 year renewals for sure.
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  #82  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:57 PM
DWARREN123 DWARREN123 is offline
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Tennessee many years ago, 50 rounds any handgun.
I used a CZ 75B matte SS in 9mm, did very well. Many folks had .380's or 38 spl.
One gentleman had a older Colt 1911A1, one hole group for all rounds.
50 rounds fired at 3, 5, 7,15 and 25 yards. 5 rounds at each distance.
There were 12 people and if I remember right 4 were female.
Only one person failed and that was a guy with a 38 spl revolver, his and old but never fired it in 10 years.
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  #83  
Old 10-31-2019, 04:40 PM
mkk41 mkk41 is offline
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Awhile ago , my club did an ''Introduction to NRA Bullseye Shooting'' night.

Shoulda seen the odd assortment of pistol those people brought!
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  #84  
Old 10-31-2019, 07:26 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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How MUCH training should be required is a related, but separate subject than whether or not there should be any training at all.

I say that there SHOULD be classes, including range time, required.

How many shots are fired is not terribly important. I say at least 20, but no more than 100. For me, Sergeant York type marksmanship is not what this is about.

The idea is for the student to be able to demonstrate safe gun-handling & muzzle control. And to experience how their gun feels and functions when being used.

Plus having enough accuracy to not put bystanders at undue risk.

That's it for Range Day. Classroom time would be about SD law & theory. The classes I've taken are more about how to AVOID shooting than taking the shot.

This is good.
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  #85  
Old 10-31-2019, 11:04 PM
Jason D Jason D is offline
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There should be no training requirement to own or carry a gun. We are exercising a Right here, and not a privilege.

That said. A person owes it to themselves to know what they are doing.
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  #86  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:28 AM
L84CABO L84CABO is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
How MUCH training should be required is a related, but separate subject than whether or not there should be any training at all.

I say that there SHOULD be classes, including range time, required.

How many shots are fired is not terribly important. I say at least 20, but no more than 100. For me, Sergeant York type marksmanship is not what this is about.

The idea is for the student to be able to demonstrate safe gun-handling & muzzle control. And to experience how their gun feels and functions when being used.

Plus having enough accuracy to not put bystanders at undue risk.

That's it for Range Day. Classroom time would be about SD law & theory. The classes I've taken are more about how to AVOID shooting than taking the shot.

This is good.
I'm the first person to encourage new shooters to get qualified training and continue with training as the progress. The problem I have with making it mandatory is that people who truly needed a gun to protect themselves have literally been killed while waiting for the paperwork to be processed...

The young woman who starts dating a guy who seems perfectly normal on the first few dates but then turns into an absolute psycho and threatens to kill her. This poor woman needs a gun right freaking now, not 10 days from now after she's done her waiting period, plus another 6 months while she waits for the local sheriff to get through his backlog and process her CCW application, BEFORE she can even take her class... You get the point.
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  #87  
Old 11-01-2019, 06:30 AM
Pedro 1 Pedro 1 is online now
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Originally Posted by Jason D View Post
There should be no training requirement to own or carry a gun. We are exercising a Right here, and not a privilege.

That said. A person owes it to themselves to know what they are doing.
Thanks, Jason.
Adherence to The Second Amendment and personal accountability.
Pedro.
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  #88  
Old 11-01-2019, 06:39 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason D View Post
There should be no training requirement to own or carry a gun. We are exercising a Right here, and not a privilege.

That said. A person owes it to themselves to know what they are doing.
I hear what you are saying and donít necessarily disagree, but even possession of a hunting license in many states requires a safety course of some sort. Itís the responsible thing to require people to know what they are doing. Drivers license, same thing. Home security......up to the individual. Out in public waving your heater around because you donít know any better is probably not the best idea. Legal...yes.........smart...no.
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  #89  
Old 11-01-2019, 07:42 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason D View Post
There should be no training requirement to own or carry a gun. We are exercising a Right here, and not a privilege.

That said. A person owes it to themselves to know what they are doing.
Well actually....not completely true. They owe it to everyone else actually. Am clueless, inexperienced person with a loaded gun in public is risking the health and lives of others.
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  #90  
Old 11-01-2019, 07:47 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
How MUCH training should be required is a related, but separate subject than whether or not there should be any training at all.

I say that there SHOULD be classes, including range time, required.

How many shots are fired is not terribly important. I say at least 20, but no more than 100. For me, Sergeant York type marksmanship is not what this is about.

The idea is for the student to be able to demonstrate safe gun-handling & muzzle control. And to experience how their gun feels and functions when being used.

Plus having enough accuracy to not put bystanders at undue risk.

That's it for Range Day. Classroom time would be about SD law & theory. The classes I've taken are more about how to AVOID shooting than taking the shot.

This is good.
I'm the first person to encourage new shooters to get qualified training and continue with training as the progress. The problem I have with making it mandatory is that people who truly needed a gun to protect themselves have literally been killed while waiting for the paperwork to be processed...

The young woman who starts dating a guy who seems perfectly normal on the first few dates but then turns into an absolute psycho and threatens to kill her. This poor woman needs a gun right freaking now, not 10 days from now after she's done her waiting period, plus another 6 months while she waits for the local sheriff to get through his backlog and process her CCW application, BEFORE she can even take her class... You get the point.
That’s an interesting point but maybe not the entire story. First of all, when buying a gun, you don’t need to wait 6 months. A woman in this case, could just carry if she wanted. Illegally, of course. But it’s better than being dead in an attack. Seriously, if someone felt that much in danger....I suspect they would carry. Yea, yea, yea....I know what you mean though.

In WI, the permit process is in immediate. You go online. All you need is to prove you took Hungers Safety when you were 12. It’s a low bar.

In MN, yes, you need to take a class. Once the paperwork is submitted and paid for, permit shows up in a week or two.
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  #91  
Old 11-01-2019, 07:55 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason D View Post
There should be no training requirement to own or carry a gun. We are exercising a Right here, and not a privilege.

That said. A person owes it to themselves to know what they are doing.
I hear what you are saying and don’t necessarily disagree, but even possession of a hunting license in many states requires a safety course of some sort. It’s the responsible thing to require people to know what they are doing. Drivers license, same thing. Home security......up to the individual. Out in public waving your heater around because you don’t know any better is probably not the best idea. Legal...yes.........smart...no.
Carrying a gun is not a God given right....IMO. A gun is man made product. Man made the gun and this makes laws regarding its use.

However, defending ones self I think is. But that doesn’t mean we can use whatever we want. Not sure we want people tossing a grenade at an assailant.

One thing I tell my students all the time, a permit to carry is just that....a permit. You still need to meet certain legal thresholds before you can use it to defend yourself. And a gun in this regards is no different than a hammer or a fist.

I kick box every day. I have SD options most people don’t have. In fact I can put a guy on the ground faster than I could ever draw a firearm from a concealed position. If the four pillars are met and my life is in immediate danger, I can knee strike a bad guy in the head. But as soon as the threat stops, I can no longer continue. If I keep bashing the guy until his head crushes I might be guilty of murder.
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  #92  
Old 11-01-2019, 09:19 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelE View Post
I agree also. I would not be comfortable knowing a bystander that has had absolutely no training, nor in many cases even fired the gun they choose to carry, is carry to protect him or herself at possibly mine or another's expense.

We're all gun people here and I think we take a lot of this stuff for granite because we've been doing it for so long it's second nature to most of us.

It's the non-gun people that choose to carry that worry me most.

I don't think training should be mandatory, but I do think that someone wanting to carry a firearm has enough sense to get some for their own benefit as well as an innocent bystander's.
Thing is not everyone has that common sense.

All laws really are not so much for those with that common sense or who are going to do the right thing.

Most laws are for those who don't , would rather not, or in this case for those who don't think they really need too.

Last edited by Dddrees; 11-01-2019 at 09:27 AM.
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  #93  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:20 AM
Big Pete10 Big Pete10 is offline
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In Texas the CHL class was about the laws, not about teaching anyone to shoot or clean a gun. We did have to shoot to prove proficiency with the handgun. We were expected to know how to shoot. Some brought guns that didn't work, had to borrow a gun to complete the class. Kind of sad.
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  #94  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:37 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by Big Pete10 View Post
In Texas the CHL class was about the laws, not about teaching anyone to shoot or clean a gun. We did have to shoot to prove proficiency with the handgun. We were expected to know how to shoot. Some brought guns that didn't work, had to borrow a gun to complete the class. Kind of sad.
Just another thing that shows how unknowledgeable, how lazy, and irresponsible some people can be.


You really expect that time should be set aside during one of these classes on how to clean a gun? Instead of maybe more time devoted to more important aspects such as safety or actual firing and qualification.

How long and what do you think should actually be covered?
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  #95  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:59 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Originally Posted by mkk41 View Post
Awhile ago , my club did an ''Introduction to NRA Bullseye Shooting'' night.

Shoulda seen the odd assortment of pistol those people brought!
Well it is .22 RF, .45 ACP, and "any center fire' for full up 3 gun Bullseye.

As a lot of folks have discovered the scoring rules tend to make larger holes produce a higher score.
So using a .45 in 'any center fire' does have a slight advantage over a smaller caliber.
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  #96  
Old 11-01-2019, 07:28 PM
RED HORSE RED HORSE is offline
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Well actually....not completely true. They owe it to everyone else actually. Am clueless, inexperienced person with a loaded gun in public is risking the health and lives of others.
So how do you feel about drivers training? There are many people on the road who have never had drivers training. Here you pass a simple test where you are given the answers first. I've know people who pass the test without even being able to read.
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  #97  
Old 11-02-2019, 07:01 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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In general, I am not a fan of comparing gun laws and cars, but at the same time, I understand why people do. But if you want to compare, let’s continue with the comparison.

To drive a car the law requires you to have registration and insurance. Of course, I am not a fan of someone who lacks experience behind the wheel and my kids were required in this state to pass a behind the wheel test. I was too even as an adult.

So if we want to make cars and guns the same then we need to have anyone that carries a gun be required to have insurance and also walk around with some sort of posted registration tag 🙂

At least with cars, if someone breaks the law, they are charged and fined which often prevents someone from driving again....legally.

Naturally anyone can still get behind the wheel of a car and thus, anyone can get a gun. Laws don’t prevent bad people from doing things 100% but they do create a process.
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  #98  
Old 11-02-2019, 07:20 AM
mkk41 mkk41 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jason D View Post
There should be no training requirement to own or carry a gun. We are exercising a Right here, and not a privilege.

That said. A person owes it to themselves to know what they are doing.
How about a training requirement to vote?
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  #99  
Old 11-02-2019, 09:07 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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Talking about all these requirements is interesting but we need to keep in mind that all states are so different. Right now I believe there are 16 "Constitutional Carry" states. That eliminates all questions about training for a permit. I will reserve my thoughts on this for another day.

Now for those who worry about the ability to get a gun immediately IF they need it. I'm sure there are other states like mine, SC, where you can walk into a gun store, buy a gun, pass the backround check, and then walk out with the gun. So you will have it immediately for protection at home or in your car. You can also break the law and carry it.

I, myself would like to see some form of training to at least familiarize the person with the gun and basic functions. However as I think most of us will agree if we do a basic training for the permit, shoot a 50 round box of ammo and then never practice again, what was that training really worth?
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  #100  
Old 11-02-2019, 09:09 AM
Icecream Icecream is offline
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A fully loaded G17, stop, you need to clear it before another step. Muzzle in the barrel and he proceeded to rack the slide and could not figure out why live rounds kept dumping on the floor with his finger clearly on the trigger.

Kimber 1911, took it apart then asked, can you help me or how does this go back together?

Blocks very popular but Ruger was taking over or equal to blocks.
M&P probably next.
Rarely a Sig.
1911s are rare too.

Did have single action Ruger Black Hawk loooong barrel.
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