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  #201  
Old 10-21-2019, 05:05 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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There is only one victim here, an innocent HO. Either the Cop was incompetent, his PD process were faulty, or both. I appreciate the list JJ' posted and agree with many of them, but I do not support transferring all that risk from the Cop to the HO by not announcing. The cop is paid to take on risk, the HO is not. If the fatal-funnel doorway is too much risk, find another way to inform the resident's you are there.

Cheeze, I know I would never want a cop coming to my house unannounced (ever) but especially at 2AM-dark. Nothing good could possibly come from it. And unfortunately, the odds would not be on any HO's side especially those who own guns and believe in the right to self-defense.
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Last edited by combat auto; 10-21-2019 at 05:08 PM.
  #202  
Old 10-21-2019, 05:17 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Not long ago, there was another thread in this sub-forum regarding a homeowner who fired at some thug/trespasser in Dallas (Oak Cliff). The homeowner thought the thug/trespasser got away, unhurt. And chose NOT to call the police. (Again, this was Oak Cliff, which might have additional relevance).

Next morning, the homeowner noticed an object in the park across the street. Turned out to be the remains of the thug/trespasser.

I suspect the homeowner decided not to call the police right away (when firing shots) due to fear that there was more risk than benefit to him.
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  #203  
Old 10-21-2019, 05:24 PM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Not long ago, there was another thread in this sub-forum regarding a homeowner who fired at some thug/trespasser in Dallas (Oak Cliff). The homeowner thought the thug/trespasser got away, unhurt. And chose NOT to call the police. (Again, this was Oak Cliff, which might have additional relevance).

Next morning, the homeowner noticed an object in the park across the street. Turned out to be the remains of the thug/trespasser.

I suspect the homeowner decided not to call the police right away (when firing shots) due to fear that there was more risk than benefit to him.
Apples and oranges to this discussion. I don't recall if I chimed in on that thread or not, but I do recall coming to the conclusion that the homeowner was in the wrong because he fired at a retreating bad guy.

The primary issue in this thread, if I can be so bold as to break it down, is whether or not a LEO can shoot at an unknown person holding a gun in a building without announcing and at least trying to get the person to comply with a lawful command.
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  #204  
Old 10-21-2019, 05:32 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by borderboss1 View Post
Apples and oranges to this discussion. I don't recall if I chimed in on that thread or not, but I do recall coming to the conclusion that the homeowner was in the wrong because he fired at a retreating bad guy.

The primary issue in this thread, if I can be so bold as to break it down, is whether or not a LEO can shoot at an unknown person holding a gun in a building without announcing and at least trying to get the person to comply with a lawful command.
No disagreement on any of this. +1911 here and your other excellent post. Whether the homeowner in other thread might be legally deemed or accused of bring in the wrong (i.e., beginning with formal charges) is still open, but I think that we, as Forum members, mostly thought his actions were of unclear or doubtful propriety... not an example to follow https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=1001606

My thinking was merely a reflection on the reasoning behind a citizen's decision not to call the police ... until the next morning.

People in certain neighborhoods likely do have some fear about calling police, and one wonders if their fear might have some-- just some-- basis in experience...e.g., the occurrence discussed in our current thread.

I fear I was going slightly off-topic, so let me drop that subject and re-focus on the current thread.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 10-21-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #205  
Old 10-21-2019, 05:35 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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The answer BorderBoss is ‘yes’. In certain circumstances, and just so all here understand.....I do not think (based on what little WE know at this point) this situation remotely qualifies.

Last edited by shooter59; 10-21-2019 at 05:47 PM.
  #206  
Old 10-21-2019, 06:05 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Not the first time

Trying to find some precedent cases, this is from Law Enforcement World..OMgoodness, you ain't going to believe this story from June 14 - not exactly the same of course but apropos nevertheless:

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/...mergency-call/

I'm thinking of shutting of my ADT alarm, I might be safer overall ;-).
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Last edited by combat auto; 10-21-2019 at 06:18 PM.
  #207  
Old 10-21-2019, 06:23 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Trying to find some precedent cases, this is from Law Enforcement World..OMgoodness, you ain't going to believe this story from June 14:

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/...mergency-call/

I'm thinking of shutting of my ADT alarm, I might be safer overall ;-).
+1911 CA for finding and sharing this.

More evidence that those of us in our own homes really need to think about how we react to persons appearing unexpectedly at night around our home.

Regardless of the outside person's possible right (?) to shoot question, there is an obvious risk for the homeowner to be aware of and to give advance thought to. Even if the homeowner is later deemed to be in the right, that's of little consolation if one is dead or severely wounded.

In my mind, I think it likely raises questions (or exposes a downside consideration) about a homeowner using a weapon-mounted light to get a better view of someone unexpectedly on/in your property at night. It's not possible to aim that light without also pointing the gun at the same subject. I'm gathering that at least some in LE believe that that's sufficient reason to fire at such homeowner inside of his/her own home. Whether it's right or not, I think this is a clear learning from this thread.

Thoughts -- either way -- welcomed. We learn by sharing.

Your comment on the alarm system (combined with an armed homeowner) is also of possible interest... for those times when we're in our homes.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 10-21-2019 at 06:46 PM.
  #208  
Old 10-21-2019, 07:11 PM
Mike 139 Mike 139 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
Thanks. That is exactly like the situation being discussed. When police think there might be a break in with a possible armed suspect inside they should just walk up to the door and say "anyone home". Makes good sense.
...and bring along a translator for those in Sanctuary Cities/ States.

JJ hit all the important points, Job 1 is to go home safe at the end of your shift.

The most important thing for People wondering about this situation is always use common sense....Place layers of security around your home starting with locked doors, garage door closed, outside cameras that can be monitored on your TV or Cell phone, they sell these systems @ Sams and Costco... And...this is important...Don’t point weapons at Police...These are the People that wear a Blue or Green Uniform with a silver or gold Badge over the left Breast Pocket......If you see lights in your yard or hear knocks on your door, you can ALWAYS call 911 and ask if the police are at your door/yard....

Always have a plan, use common sense, and don’t bring problems on yourself.
  #209  
Old 10-21-2019, 07:43 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Mike, do you advise against a homeowner's use of a weapon-mounted light (to get a view of whatever or whoever might be in or reconnoitering around their home at night?

It's hard to object to your security recommendations. I think anyone would agree that these are good ideas, even those persons who aren't able to check all of the boxes.

There are multiple subjects intermingled in this discussion... some, including some I've raised, have an independent relevance to the question of whether the former Fort Worth officer's actions were acceptable.

Sometimes I've received a mandatory notice from an entity that had a security breech whereby bad actors stole personal identity information from their servers, including my social security number, etc. Usually in that same notice, the entity recommends that I (not them) should take good security precautions as to passwords etc. Maybe it's just an incorrect perception on my part, but it seems as if, with those suggestions, they are implying that I'm somehow at fault for their security breech and/or if I'd done more, their systems would not have been breeched.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 10-21-2019 at 08:07 PM.
  #210  
Old 10-21-2019, 08:04 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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For those having more familiarity than myself with 911 operations in large cities, do 911 operators know what police officer dispatches have been made ... e.g., a dispatch, unknown to the homeowner, to that homeowner's home or adjacent property. Would they (911 operators) promptly and accurately answer that question to the homeowner?

I don't know; just asking. This might be a useful nugget of knowledge to possess....what 911 can and cannot do in this regard on a timely basis when the homeowner has genuine fear/concern as to unknown persons who might represent an impending break-in...e.g. sooner than five minutes in future.

Much of my planning, up to now, has been based on the perception that whatever I might need to do really needs to be done very fast ...e.g., sooner than five minutes, maybe even less than one minute.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 10-21-2019 at 08:16 PM.
  #211  
Old 10-21-2019, 08:11 PM
Mike 139 Mike 139 is offline
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C,,,,, I don’t recommend anyone try to clear their House/ Perimeter by themselves.... You don’t know how many subjects you may be dealing with. or what their level of training is...a couple years back, there was a small group of commercial burglars that had military training... they knew how to ‘ cut the pie’ an infantry tactic for going around corners, they wound up killing 3 or 4 Police Officers before being stopped..JJ would know more about it..It was in CA.

I recommend a Safe room in the house and a cell phone to communicate with 911 if you suffer a home invasion.

I’m old school....I’ve always used a handheld light out to my side when clearing buildings, and I’ve arrested a lot of burglars, over the years, some armed....

When under stress, you always revert back to your training, so have a plan and update/ revise it as necessary, as you get older, make revisions to deal with limitations.

As to your 2nd post,, Yes they do,and they always have a desk Sgt. on duty to address any concerns.

Last edited by Mike 139; 10-21-2019 at 08:14 PM.
  #212  
Old 10-21-2019, 08:21 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Good stuff. Thank you and +1911 Mike.

I totally understand LEO use of weapon-mounted lights but for a non-LEO homeowner, I'm shifted even further to an opinion that these have big downside risks.

While I sense that your perception of the Fort Worth incident might be a notch or two different from mine (at immediate present), I nonetheless recognize the value in your input ... and I also remain open-minded to new information about what occurred in FW. More than once, additional information has caused me to have a wholly different perception of fault than my first perception.

If I'm ever able to build a retirement home, I will choose some level of bullet-resistant glass, in addition to the other suggestions you've made. Again +1911 for your input. (There are UL ratings for bullet-resistant glass. Any rating higher than "5" adds considerable protection, although also becoming more costly.)

---

I fear that my primary present-day house is rather small and has too many security "holes". I doubt that it would take long for a typical break-in thug to find a way inside. Not sure that I have much choice beyond having a 1911 close at hand and a corner, windowless backroom to withdraw towards. A second home of mine, for when I'm there, is considerably more robust.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 10-21-2019 at 08:55 PM.
  #213  
Old 10-21-2019, 08:32 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Dispatch will stay on line with homeowner...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
For those having more familiarity than myself with 911 operations in large cities, do 911 operators know what police officer dispatches have been made ... e.g., a dispatch, unknown to the homeowner, to that homeowner's home or adjacent property. Would they (911 operators) promptly and accurately answer that question to the homeowner?

A "burg" is a priority call and when dispatched, "beat" partners will begin to go toward the call as "back up". When the homeowner (R/P) calls in a "break in/ burg in progress" they may stay on the line with dispatch, describe their location and their description and if armed. The LEO will advise their arrival and this will be passed to home owner (R/P). The homeowner (R/P) may then direct the LEO toward the suspect if known. The specific circumstances dictate what dispatch supervision might recommended the homeowner (R/P) to do.

I don't know; just asking. This might be a useful nugget of knowledge to possess....what 911 can and cannot do in this regard on a timely basis when the homeowner has genuine fear/concern as to unknown persons who might represent an impending break-in...e.g. sooner than five minutes in future.

Much of my planning, up to now, has been based on the perception that whatever I might need to do really needs to be done very fast ...e.g., sooner than five minutes, maybe even less than one minute.
Different jurisdictions may have different recommendations for the "reporting party" (R/P).
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Last edited by jjfitch; 10-21-2019 at 08:38 PM.
  #214  
Old 10-21-2019, 08:39 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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I am not sure if this is relevant to this thread or not.

But I will make an observation here. I grew up in Montgomery county Maryland. The police department for that county are very well vetted, paid and very highly trained. While I have no wish to live there today. I will say this. The police force was very effective insofar as what most of us would consider to be traditional policing. You can read this as a very low crime rate, with very low instances of violent encounters between police and citizens.

Now it is understood that this is a generally well heeled population for the most part countywide, but not entirely. I just can not help but wonder if better recruitment, pay scales and training would not come into play for negating poor outcomes from police encounters for a given jurisdiction.

And if this is in fact the case. As I strongly believe that it is. Then the blame lies for the most part on the shoulders of those that determine the level of training, salaries and vetting of police officers on their watch. This would of course be the elected officials of the given jurisdiction.

Scapegoats are convenient. Place the blame where it really belongs! I am largely of a mind to thinking that Ms. Geiger as well as this officer are largely going to be the fall persons for systemic failure. Their fault is clear. But someone should have been looking out for them.

Last edited by USMM guy; 10-21-2019 at 08:51 PM.
  #215  
Old 10-21-2019, 09:04 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
But I will make an observation here. I grew up in Montgomery county Maryland. The police department for that county are very well vetted, paid and very highly trained. While I have no wish to live there today. I will say this. The police force was very effective insofar as what most of us would consider to be traditional policing. You can read this as a very low crime rate, with very low instances of violent encounters between police and citizens.

Now it is understood that this is a generally well heeled population for the most part countywide, but not entirely. I just can not help but wonder if better recruitment, pay scales and training would not come into play for negating poor outcomes from police encounters for a given jurisdiction.

And if this is in fact the case. As I strongly believe that it is. Then the blame lies for the most part on the shoulders of those that determine the level of training, salaries and vetting of police officers on their watch. This would of course be the elected officials of the given jurisdiction.

Scapegoats are convenient. Place the blame where it really belongs! I am largely of a mind to thinking that Ms. Geiger as well as this officer are largely going to be the fall persons for systemic failure. Their fault is clear. But someone should have been looking out for them.
More excellent observations.

I think that all of us participating in this thread's discussion should take a deep breath and think again about the posts we might disagree with as well as those we agree with. It's so easy to move towards an opinion that it was one specific person's fault (and I confess to having some inclination in that direction), but I think there is wisdom in other opinions as well.

And as we've probably all recognized, it is at least possible that more critically relevant information might come to light in the future. Together with some others here, my trust in the media's presentation of these types of events is far less than 100%.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 10-21-2019 at 11:18 PM.
  #216  
Old 10-21-2019, 10:52 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Trying to find some precedent cases, this is from Law Enforcement World..OMgoodness, you ain't going to believe this story from June 14 - not exactly the same of course but apropos nevertheless:

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/...mergency-call/

I'm thinking of shutting of my ADT alarm, I might be safer overall ;-).
Good grief! Lord help us all. You just never know when you'll have a nightmare on your hands, or if you'll live through it.... not even in your own home.
  #217  
Old 10-21-2019, 11:57 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Good grief! Lord help us all. You just never know when you'll have a nightmare on your hands, or if you'll live through it.... not even in your own home.
This is the part that speaks to me that, surely, something is not quite right. Combined with the woman being shot dead in her own home, while playing games with a nephew, by someone outside, peering in at her, pointing a gun at her, and then shooting her, all through a window, it's why my sentiments (at present, based on what's reported) run more in one direction than the other. I'm not a LEO, and perhaps that's my blind spot and that's also why I appreciate perspectives from the LEO side...but it still, as of now, doesn't feel quite right to me. Or even close to o.k.

Thinking about an unknown person in my backyard, suddenly peering at me through a window, with a bright light and firearm in hand, aimed directly at me is a nightmarish scenario. Even if I failed to take good security precautions and even if my tactical reflexive actions were inadvisable, the thought of that possibly being the last moment of my life feels terribly wrong. (Based on input/discussion in this thread, it is more likely now that I would not make such errors; so that is a big positive takeaway from this thread).

And this is probably the reason why this thread has reached nine (9) pages. There's something about such circumstances visiting themselves, in total surprise, upon a law-abiding firearms owner (possibly next time in another place even a non-owner with merely a cellphone in hand calling 911), that hits a person in the gut.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 10-22-2019 at 12:47 AM.
  #218  
Old 10-22-2019, 04:59 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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^Chrys', Excellent post my Friend. Encapsulates the situation well. Yes, there is something wrong if homeowner's get shot in their own home, be it bad process or bad policing. Perhap's the one-off low probability bad policing can't be stopped (just like incompetent doctor's can't be totally eliminated), but there is no excuse for the PD community for having bad processes.

Yes, cops want to go home the end of their shift, and Homeowner's want to stay home after encounters with police in their house (rather than having a trip to the morgue)...Having a policy (or out of personal negligence of a cop even if the policy doesn't exist in a certain department) of not announcing their presence is a recipe for disaster and shifts way to much risk from the cop (who is payed to take risk) to the homeowner.

Just an aside, besides my personal friends who are cops, I have had 4 Cops come to my house in the line of duty. Once so I can donate a rifle to the local PD (and I did not touch that rifle in front of the Captain, I pointed at it in the garage and he picked it up), once because I was flat on my back with pain and had to call for an ambulance (they send a cop too around here I guess when the ambulance comes), and 2 times associated with an X-girl friend situation (long story, decades ago, she showed up at my house with I'll intent). In each case it was daylight, and I knew they were coming so no problem. But showing up at night unannounced is a recipe for disaster especially in a place like TX with such high gun ownership (as in the case we are studying)...Don't have to be a brainiac or a tacticool-guru who frequents all the popular training courses to figure this out.
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Last edited by combat auto; 10-22-2019 at 05:26 AM.
  #219  
Old 10-22-2019, 08:09 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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"Check the welfare", "open door", "D/V" and "suspicious circ" calls all have one thing in common: AMBUSH!

Ask the families of Christenson, Teal, Hagen, Lohman, Doty, and Thatch all killed in the line of duty investigating these calls. All ambushed in Riverside County, Ca.

Doty and Thatch shot through windows!

My perspective is somewhat "jaded"!

Excessive use of force under color of authority must be investigated to the maximum and prosecuted to the maximum!

Regards,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 10-22-2019 at 08:11 AM.
  #220  
Old 10-22-2019, 08:17 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Yes, horrible that these officers got killed. Innocents are dying on both sides, just more justification that new processes need to be developed to keep both sides safer (obviously in a free society there will always be some risk).
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  #221  
Old 10-22-2019, 08:27 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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This may come across as callous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
"Check the welfare", "open door", "D/V" and "suspicious circ" calls all have one thing in common: AMBUSH!

Ask the families of Christenson, Teal, Hagen, Lohman, Doty, and Thatch all killed in the line of duty investigating these calls. All ambushed in Riverside County, Ca.

Doty and Thatch shot through windows!

My perspective is somewhat "jaded"!

Excessive use of force under color of authority must be investigated to the maximum and prosecuted to the maximum!

Regards,
But that is not my intention. Nor is it my intention to take away any of the heroism no doubt attached to the names that you listed. As has been stated here a number of times. Not many here would relish the job of a LEO in todays world.

However in fairness it should be considered that California for the most part has the highest paid LEOs in the country. Additionally as the saying goes. If you can not take the heat, then you should step away from the fire.

I will reiterate that it is by no means my intention to impugn or slight the actions of any of the valiant men and women that man the blue line on a daily basis. Just trying to add to the conversation.
  #222  
Old 10-22-2019, 09:05 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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By now, I (and probably most of us participating in this thread) have fully expressed our thoughts. (Pending possible release of additional information to the general public).

So, for me, this is a good time for me to thank each of you for your contributions. Even when thoughts differing from mine were expressed, I found value, often considerable value in the totality of those posts. Thanks again.
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  #223  
Old 10-22-2019, 10:45 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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Since we are still here.

Another thought has occurred to me. Was there a Canine unit available to assist on this call? We will likely never know. But it appears to me that as what apparently became a suspected burglary. Then a Canine assist would have been the way to go.

Now I do not know the extent of what most of these dogs are capable of, I expect that it varies quite a bit. But I do know that they are capable of some pretty amazing things. So you have a residence with doors open, and you think that there could be a bad guy lurking about. Why not send a dog in to smoke them out or otherwise subdue them. My impression is that this is exactly what some of these dogs are trained for.

So what happens then? Best case scenario is that problem solved with no one seriously injured. Worst case that maybe the woman shoots the dog and things maybe go downhill from there. But still a good chance that everybody goes home that night except the dog. Not a great outcome for sure but still better than any innocent people being killed.

So this begs the question. Was there a suitable Canine unit available to service this call? Did the responding officers even inquire as to such availability? The Dallas Ft. Worth metro area is pretty big. I would be very surprised if they did not have significant amount of Canine staffing. Whether there was one available or not? I will reiterate that we will likely never know.

So let us assume that there was no dog available. This is quite possible as I do know that they are quite an expense to train and care for. Additionally that they always appear to be in demand. My deep training in law enforcement procedures gleaned from Watching COPs episodes to see what all of my friends are up to. You hear a lot of "We are going to sit tight here until the Canine unit shows up."

So going from there, if there is a shortage of these valuable assets. Is it because every penny of tax money that goes into the budget is already judiciously allocated to get the best use of it. Or are the Canine units being restricted to only three new dogs this year instead of four, because the mayor wants to do a 200,000$ makeover on his office this year?
  #224  
Old 10-22-2019, 11:37 AM
Mike 139 Mike 139 is offline
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JJ.. Back in 85 ,Dept.. sent me to Northwestern University The Traffic Institute, for Police Officer Survival Tactics... Course Director was a George Brunette... The two Instructors were from Riverside...Really enjoyed these guys and passed the knowledge along doing In- Service @ the Dept.


USMM... Reference K-9... For most Depts. this is a long learning curve... Most are like your last paragraph and spend the least amount possible ,trying to use donated Dogs or not wanting to spend the time and effort/moneyto do it right.

I’m LONG Retired.,,,,, BUT, our K9’s were imported from Germany or Czech Republic and the Officers picked were State Certified and training constantly. We usually had two on each Shift ...They were “at large” and since we had a mutual Aid agreement with the County, they stayed as busy as we did...Call to call.

Subject commits a felony,runs away or crashes, Set up a Perimeter and call K-9. An Officer/ Sgt. ALWAYS goes in with the Handler and Dog when entering a Bldg. or Perimeter. Alarm call and find a break? Again set up a perimeter and get K9 there. Often, when K9 arrived, after announcing the Dog was there ,and hearing it Bark, the Subject/s would immediately exit and surrender.

There are strict guidelines for deploying K9....unless conducting a search for a Child/ missing person, K9 is only used for Felonies and drug searches on traffic stops/crowd control, etc.

In this Ft. Worth case, K9 would have NOT been enroute... You have to know what you’re dealing with before requesting K9. You NEVER send in the Dog alone...These Dogs are Dedicated, Loyal and are better than most People, They are covered under State Statute, same as Police Officers, another words ,it’s a FELONY to kill /injure a Police Dog.

Forensics will ascertain if the deceased was in fact HOLDING the gun in her hand....The Police would have NOT been there, except for the neighbor calling in for an open front door at 0200, which was not normal, and people are up moving around inside... One of which may or may not have had a firearm in hand. Yes...on these types of calls, a reasonable and prudent person would proceed cautiously and attempt to ascertain what was going on before making entry/ contact.

Last edited by Mike 139; 10-23-2019 at 07:10 AM.
  #225  
Old 10-22-2019, 11:41 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 6,201
No free pass from me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
But that is not my intention. Nor is it my intention to take away any of the heroism no doubt attached to the names that you listed. As has been stated here a number of times. Not many here would relish the job of a LEO in todays world.

However in fairness it should be considered that California for the most part has the highest paid LEOs in the country. Additionally as the saying goes. If you can not take the heat, then you should step away from the fire.

I will reiterate that it is by no means my intention to impugn or slight the actions of any of the valiant men and women that man the blue line on a daily basis. Just trying to add to the conversation.

LEO's are paid a higher rate in the metro areas due to the cost of living, yet few can live there because the pay still doesn't approach what is required. Now add in the "**** hole" factor and some areas still can't fill openings.

Nobody signs up so they can get killed in an ambush no matter what the pay!

Every single officer involved shooting gets analyzed for training purposes and tactics get formulated from there. Hence the "fatal funnel"!

In another post you mention "K9's". So now the first responder is going to wait for the K9!

Tomorrows headline: "Family killed in home invasion while LEO's wait for K9"

To say you don't mean to "impugn" doesn't get a free pass!

Regards,
__________________
John, Retired LEO, CA POST Certified Firearms Instructor, NRA Endmt., NRA Instructor, NRA RSO, Blue Lives Matter
Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!

Last edited by jjfitch; 10-22-2019 at 11:47 AM.
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