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  #1  
Old 11-05-2013, 01:16 PM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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Problems with Sig Nitron

So I've had a Sig Nitron (the standard base model) for awhile now. When I first bought it-the gun had serious reliability issues, numerous failures to feed, failures to eject, the works.

I sent it back to Sig and they polished the feed ramp and throated the barrel. The gun ran much better...only have a few rare hiccups, but it was much improved so I was fairly happy with it.

Due to the ammo shortages I've pretty much been using only Winchester white box which seems to work most of the time with the SIg. Now I got some Federal ammo and I'm having major issues with it in the Sig.

Every single time I try to rack the slide and draw a bullet into the chamber, the slide jams about 3/4 of the way back and the bullet is stuck. It hits (the ramp I believe) with such force the bullets are actually getting pushed back into the casing. I've tried this with multiple Federal rounds from different boxes, same issues. These same bullets feed without fail in my Colt.

What gives? Is Federal really that differently shaped from other types of ammo?

What's my next move here?

I don't really want to have to send it to Sig again, but this is really unacceptable. I really feel like this gun is a lemon and I would not trust my life to it, its had too many issues for me to feel confident in it.
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  #2  
Old 11-05-2013, 01:58 PM
CCW_Husker CCW_Husker is offline
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Interesting. What do you mean by Federal ammo? I have a Railed TacPac 1911 and it runs very well with most of the mags I have on hand. I say most because I have a couple of older Wilson ETM's that I need to put new springs in. Those mags will cause a fail to feed on the last round. Othere than that, mine runs like a rapped ape with everything I've ran through it: WWB 185gr and 230gr ball, Remington UMC 230gr ball, Federal 230gr HiShok JHP, 230gr HydraShok, Rangers, everything short of a flint rock. It sucks that your Sig is having issues. A little more info on the ammo that is giving you fits will allow the collective braintrust here to help you out.
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  #3  
Old 11-05-2013, 03:45 PM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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Hey Husker, I'm talking about "Federal" brand ammo, I think its pretty common all over the US :

http://www.federalpremium.com/

For whatever reason its completely unusable in the gun. Its not the magazines, I run the same ones (wilson combat) with my other guns and they work great. I guess I better send it back again to Sig.

It's a shame ,I love the features and look of the gun but it is far and away my most troublesome 1911.
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  #4  
Old 11-05-2013, 05:42 PM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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Can you post a picture of the breech face and exactly what the jam looks like?
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2013, 08:54 AM
CCW_Husker CCW_Husker is offline
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Gotcha. Federal Champion... load number WM5233. It is supposed to be Federal's Wally World special, but I first saw it at Cabelas. It is supposed to be common, but I haven't seen it in a good while here. While it has warts (small pistol primers and plated projectiles), it has ran in everything I've put it through. It's a fun load. I have not ran it in my Sig because it hasn't been around in .45 in my AO. Custom2 is on to something. He has posted before about rough breach faces and tight chambers with the Sigs in the past. Additionally, I misspoke about my few and far between malfunctions. I got hung up on feed issues because that is what you are having. My apologies for the mix up on my part. My issues have been with a failure to extract/stovepipe on the last round of a couple (the oldest two) of my ETM's that need springs. It has also been published, by Hilton Yam at MSW, that Sig's extractor geometry is less than optimal and did not pass his extractor function test. That being said, new springs will fix my mild issue. As to conclude with your issue, post up some photos and Custom2 will help you out.
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2013, 12:08 PM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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Well now I'm confused. Go to take some pics, and lo and behold the Federal bullets are now feeding properly. This is odd because the last ten rounds I tried were jam failures with smashed in bullet heads. I did notice that the bullet casings get pretty scratched and roughed up from the chambering, however.

Here is a picture of the ramp/barrel, I forgot to get a shot of the breech face, I was not able to get a jam picture because suddenly it was not jamming? There is a little lip of metal between the feed ramp and the barrel itself...wonder if that could use some polishing? Or perhaps the feedramp itself needs another going over?

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  #7  
Old 11-07-2013, 05:31 AM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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Look at your feed ramp and barrel ramp. They are very well polished. DO NOT round off the top of the feed ramp and DO NOT polish the ramp any more. 1911's are suppose to have space between the ramp and barrel. Rounding this gap can cause more harm than good.

Please post a picture of your breech face.
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Last edited by David Panciotti; 11-07-2013 at 05:33 AM.
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:45 AM
CCW_Husker CCW_Husker is offline
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Great... the gremlins go away and the gun behaves when you actually want it to hiccup. I guess that Murphy works both ways.
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2013, 01:00 PM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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Yeah, I wasn't going to mess around with the ramp and barrel hood because Sig did do a great mirror polish on it... I just don't understand whats causing it so was grasping at straws. Here is the breechface


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  #10  
Old 11-08-2013, 07:02 PM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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When the gun jams, does it look like the bullet made it mostly up the ramp and about to chamber but gets held up by the extractor? The picture of your breechface shows a bunch of brass marks on the J cut ( the cutout that looks like a J)

Your breechface looks smoother than I thought it would. Up close, does it look porous or rough?

Can you slip a live round in between the breechface and extractor claw relatively easy? Does the extractor claw hold that round enough so you can gently shake the slide without it falling out? Will a live round drop in and out of the barrel freely (plunk test) or is it tight?

Sorry, I ask a lot of questions but I find that asking a ton of questions is the best way to diagnose issues.
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Last edited by David Panciotti; 11-08-2013 at 07:07 PM.
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  #11  
Old 11-08-2013, 08:13 PM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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I was able to get it to jam again... seems quite random.

The bullet looks like its almost up the ramp when it jams as you can see in the pics.

The breechface feels smooth and doesn't feel rough or pitted at all.

The plunk test- bullet drops in and out no problem. I can slip a round relatively easily in the extractor claw. Its definitely snug, but not difficult to do. I'm no expert at extractor tension but it seems like it is not too tight or loose.

The other thing I notice is there are contact brass marks on the edge of the slide stop pin. Now, earlier I had been having issues with the gun not locking open after the final shot, and replaced the slide stop with one from Wilson combat, as I had read from others with Sigs having this issue. It seemed to completely eliminate that issue and I didn't have any problems with it for months using Remington and Winchest ammo. As I said, this jam only occurs with Federal. I'm wondering if perhaps that is the cause, the edge of that slide stop is hitting the bullet with this particular brand? Its definitely making contact enough to rub off on it.

Last pic is not super clear but it shows two of the failed bullets next to a good round, you can see the scrapes on the side of the brass and the bullet is jammed a bit down into the casing.

Thanks for the help.









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  #12  
Old 11-08-2013, 10:36 PM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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All the brass on the J cut makes me think there is something going on there. The round wants to go in the chamber but the case gets stopped dead half way up into the extractor.

If you press on the extractor, does it move freely and spring back into place? Does it have full travel?

I bet if the breech face was polished like the USED TO do on every gun, 80% of the issues would go away.

You can also check the breechface to extractor hook distance if you have some feeler gauges or gauge pins. The gap should be around .075.
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Last edited by David Panciotti; 11-08-2013 at 10:41 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-10-2013, 04:02 PM
rofire rofire is offline
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There's also some brass rubbing on the sharp corner of the slide release. Looks like an aftermarket release?
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  #14  
Old 11-13-2013, 09:17 AM
CCW_Husker CCW_Husker is offline
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As an end user... How hard is it to polish the breach face? Secondly, is it posible that the J-cut is slightly out of spec and would polishing it further help?
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  #15  
Old 11-13-2013, 11:27 AM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCW_Husker View Post
As an end user... How hard is it to polish the breach face? Secondly, is it posible that the J-cut is slightly out of spec and would polishing it further help?
It isn't very hard at all. I use sandpaper on a spring loaded tool to keep it flat. Polishing up or deburring the J cut could help.
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2013, 01:41 PM
CCW_Husker CCW_Husker is offline
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I've heard that a popsicle stick works too for keeping things flat. What grit, wet or dry, how long does one one polish it up for/what is the indicator that you are done?
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  #17  
Old 11-17-2013, 10:37 AM
viper49 viper49 is offline
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From the pictures you might having issue with the extractor and the federal brass rim might be a bit thicker. One way to see is to take the slide off and try to slide different fired cases between the extractor. Just a thought.
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  #18  
Old 11-17-2013, 07:52 PM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCW_Husker View Post
I've heard that a popsicle stick works too for keeping things flat. What grit, wet or dry, how long does one one polish it up for/what is the indicator that you are done?
300 or finer would work. It doesn't have to be mirror polished, just smooth.

You have to be careful too. If you take it down too much you could cause more malfunctions than you started with.
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  #19  
Old 11-17-2013, 07:54 PM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper49 View Post
From the pictures you might having issue with the extractor and the federal brass rim might be a bit thicker. One way to see is to take the slide off and try to slide different fired cases between the extractor. Just a thought.
And it's a good thought. Extractor to breechface clearance is very important to proper feeding and extracting. A good spec to use is around .075.
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  #20  
Old 11-18-2013, 09:51 AM
CCW_Husker CCW_Husker is offline
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Originally Posted by custom2 View Post
300 or finer would work. It doesn't have to be mirror polished, just smooth.

You have to be careful too. If you take it down too much you could cause more malfunctions than you started with.
Thank you. It's the taking to much off that scares me about this. I have a few friends that are gunsmiths. I might talk to them about it. Mine runs really well, but I still want it to run better.
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  #21  
Old 11-18-2013, 03:12 PM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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Husker, I'd say if the gun is running well with no issues, I wouldn't do anything to it, but what do I know?
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  #22  
Old 11-18-2013, 07:27 PM
David Panciotti David Panciotti is offline
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Arithon was kind enough to ship his gun to me care of the FFL holder I work for part time. I was able to look over his gun today and I found some things that I feel are contributing to his failures. I (nor the gunsmith who owns the place) am not charging him a dime for any work I (we) perform. I am doing this to try to help you guys get your guns running.

Upon my preliminary inspection I found that the breech face is not smooth like I said before in my previous post. There is a burr in the J cut as well as where the disconnector rail transitions into the breech face. His barrel does not rest on the slide stop pin, it rides the link. I can push his barrel down when it is in lock up. Many production guns do this. It isn't optimal but not the end of the world either on a production gun. The barrel was "throated" by what looks like a metal scraper.

The overtravel screw is not adjusted properly. There is too much travel after the trigger is pressed and I can feel the trigger move when held back and the slide is racked.

I will report back on Saturday when I strip the gun down, check head space, barrel ramp to frame ramp gap, extractor to breech clearance and hopefully, fix his pistol.
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Last edited by David Panciotti; 11-18-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2013, 08:43 AM
CCW_Husker CCW_Husker is offline
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Originally Posted by Arithon View Post
Husker, I'd say if the gun is running well with no issues, I wouldn't do anything to it, but what do I know?
because I can't ever seem to leave well enough alone and if there is a simple thing that might make my stuff run better... I figure why not. It's the same reason I put pipes on my truck even though I am married and no longer have a need to use said truck as a mating call.
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  #24  
Old 11-19-2013, 01:00 PM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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As Clint said, a man has got to know his limitations.

I thought the gun was just built too tight, was finicky and had some minor problems but now its starting to sound like a basket case, when somebody that knows what they are doing looks at it.
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2013, 01:06 PM
SIGLars SIGLars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arithon View Post
As Clint said, a man has got to know his limitations.

I thought the gun was just built too tight, was finicky and had some minor problems but now its starting to sound like a basket case, when somebody that knows what they are doing looks at it.
I have owned a number of "basket cases" over the years but none of them were SIGs. You have a Pro looking your piece over and I have no doubt he will get it running well.
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