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  #1  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:16 AM
Electricmo Electricmo is offline
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Background check profiling.

Bought a pistol the other day and as I was filling out the background check form I realized once again that the Government is profiling us. I like how they prosecute us for doing the same thing that they are doing. Ethnic and gender questions? What does that have to do with anything?
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:51 AM
flechero flechero is offline
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Ethnic, gender and citizenship questions, along with ID to buy a gun, but NOT to vote
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:53 AM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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I am wondering why is Hispanic/Latino ethnicity a question of yes or no and separated from the rest of the ethnicities?
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:03 AM
markm markm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
I am wondering why is Hispanic/Latino ethnicity a question of yes or no and separated from the rest of the ethnicities?
Yes I wondered about that too, must be the Dim's checking to see just what kind of votes they are getting without the wall...
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:13 AM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Yes I wondered about that too, must be the Dim's checking to see just what kind of votes they are getting without the wall...
Its been that way since before they were against the wall .
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:21 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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I don't think there should be an ethnicity question on ANY governmental, financial, or job/school related forms or applications, .

My, or anyone's ethnicity has no more relevance than astrological signs or people's shoe sizes.

If I'm a law-abiding citizen it doesn't matter if "my people" are Neanderthals from Jupiter.
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  #7  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:27 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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We claim that all men are created equal, yet still insist on this Race-Related BS.
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  #8  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:36 AM
Equin Equin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
I am wondering why is Hispanic/Latino ethnicity a question of yes or no and separated from the rest of the ethnicities?
Iím considered ďHispanic,Ē American whose parents are from the US Territory of Puerto Rico to be exact. I could be wrong, but I think the other categories are distinguished by race. Hispanics can be of any race, though. Although many are mixed with European (mostly Spanish), Native American and African ancestors, there are quite a few who are not of mixed race who identify with only one racial category. So thatís my best guess as to why the Hispanic category is separate.

But as to why these questions are asked in the first place, I honestly donít know. Iím guessing itís more of a way to identify the person in question, not just by name and date of birth, but also by race and ethnicity. But I could be wrong about that, too.
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  #9  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:39 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Yes, if it's race question as a descriptive like height & weight on a driver's license or a police report I have no problem with that.

Although, over time, that will become less valid as people mix DNA.

And Equin, You are correct. There was an extremely pasty "white" dude that I worked with. I would have guessed him as a Nordic person. Nope! Hispanic from Brazil!

Btw, my daughter is half Asian & half white. Her coloring is so neutral that nobody can tell what race she is.

On various forms & in conversations she has lied, claiming all kinds of heritage without anyone doubting her.
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  #10  
Old 10-04-2019, 12:32 PM
tipoc tipoc is offline
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It has more to do with identifying the buyer, tracking guns and gathering of statistics.

They do it when you buy a gun but not a refrigerator.

This started years back and is a bi-partisan thing. I don't know who started it but I've never heard a Republican elected official object.

tipoc
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  #11  
Old 10-04-2019, 12:35 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flechero View Post
Ethnic, gender and citizenship questions, along with ID to buy a gun, but NOT to vote [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG] [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/headscratch.gif[/IMG]
Ironic isn't it? However one of those two has real power......
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2019, 12:37 PM
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AZ Husker AZ Husker is offline
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On job applications I put Black lesbian veteran in a wheelchair. Covers all bases.
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  #13  
Old 10-04-2019, 12:48 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Yep they can ask the same question about ethnic background.

On the census survey, but not about citizenship.
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  #14  
Old 10-04-2019, 01:06 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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These questions also made it into the ATF NFA forms in Sept 2019.

It's exactly for profiling, so "they" can spin media reports on who is buying what.
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  #15  
Old 10-04-2019, 01:34 PM
Icecream Icecream is offline
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4473 update came under Obama 2012ish but was established under Clinton 1999 / 2000. It took that long to deplete current stock of 4473s due to wasted paper act or go paperless. All gvnt forms required this information by law 2000ish.

If I remember, 28 CFR requires race to be used in all back ground checks since 68 gun act. 2000 it was separated into 10a and 10b. You can list multiple races. Its one on the question you have to provide an answer along with name, birth date, sex, residency and must provide proof with a gvnt issued ID.

Its listed on the form if you read it, many do not.
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  #16  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:07 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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1911_Kid. And you know this is intended for spinning media reports because the head of the ATF called you & told you so?

Awesome. You must be well connected.
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  #17  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:26 PM
98Skippy 98Skippy is offline
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They use these descriptors when checking criminal history. If there are 2 john does with the same birth date, race, sex are used for better identification.
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  #18  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:11 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remanaz View Post
I am wondering why is Hispanic/Latino ethnicity a question of yes or no and separated from the rest of the ethnicities?
I have raised that issue a zillion times.

It makes no anthropological sense and has no forensic value at all if it is intended to be used for identification since under the definition you could have a person with direct 100% White European lineage to any European nation that was has parents born in a South American country like Argentina (an example because they had a large immigration of non-Latin Europeans) that immigrated to the USA a generation ago, and must answer yes... even if their European origins are Slavic, Germanic, Scandinavian... ETC.

Peru for example has a small community of Japanese. One of the former president of Peru was of Japanese origin. Under the US definition he would have to answer that he was "Hispanic" if he immigrated to the USA.

Another example would be John Sununu Sr, (former governor of New Hampshire, Chief of Staff for George Bush, POTUS#41). He was born in Havana Cuba, but his family is Lebanese/Palestinian of Christian descent. He was a first generation Cuban and immigrated to the USA as a child.

Havana Cuba actually had a small community of refugees from across the middle east as well as Europe after WWI and WWII. They had an open immigration policy and it was a stepping stone for entry into the USA because there were immigration quotas on European countries after WWI. Today Canada, serves in this capacity since the Canadians will take almost anyone, and once they get Canadian citizenship, they are free to move to the USA and apply for residency.

Anyhow, it is derived from the census definition of Latino/Hispanic, according to a congressional hearing on the subject about 5 years ago or so. The government changed the 4473 form at that time to be consistent with the US Census, and all other demonym conventions used by the US government. Apparently they wanted to delineate Americans that trace their recent heritage to countries controlled by the Spanish Empire from all other European nations, such as the British Empire. It has no real merit.

It is highly irregular and the congressional hearings also raised the question why they make such a bizarre delineation between Hispanic and non-Hispanic, because it could be interpreted as discriminatory.

But the real problem is that a person answering yes could be any race type from Negro, to Meso-American Indian to a mix of all three or four races. It could also be a person of 100% White European ancestry. So it would offer absolutely no help in identification.

Yet, they make no effort to delineate between people of Arab, Persian, Germanic, Slavic, Italic or Anglo heritage from those that have a link to a land that was once controlled by the Spanish Empire.

Edit:
It was in 2012... under Obama that the 4473 was amended after I did a little more research.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ers-to-declar/

Quote:
With little fanfare, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in 2012 amended its Form 4473 ó the transactional record the government requires gun purchasers and sellers to fill out when buying a firearm ó to identify buyers as either Hispanic, Latino or not. Then a buyer must check his or her race: Indian, Asian, black, Pacific Islander or white.
and

Quote:
ďThis issue concerns me deeply because, first, itís offensive, and, secondly, thereís no need for it,Ē said Evan Nappen, a private practice firearms lawyer in New Jersey. ďIf thereís no need for an amendment, then thereís usually a political reason for the change. What this indicates is it was done for political reasons, not law enforcement reasons.Ē

Last edited by PolymerMan; 10-04-2019 at 04:17 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:16 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Originally Posted by 98Skippy View Post
They use these descriptors when checking criminal history. If there are 2 john does with the same birth date, race, sex are used for better identification.
I would think questions 2/3/4/5/8 on 4473 would be plenty enough to distinguish between two people with same name, bday, race, sex.
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  #20  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:24 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
Edit:[/B] It was in 2012... under Obama that the 4473 was amended after I did a little more research.
4473 was also changed about ~3yrs ago. Many changes to it.

see https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-for...cord-revisions
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  #21  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:30 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911_Kid View Post
4473 was also changed about ~3yrs ago. Many changes to it.

see https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-for...cord-revisions
Yes... but the "Hispanic/Non-Hispanic" question was made mandatory in and around 2012 with a definition of how the BATFE wanted that answered based on their instruction on the back pages. Before that revision, it was optional. If you or any one of your parents were born in a Spanish speaking South American Nation or Spain, or had a Spanish sir name, then you had to answer yes.

Last edited by PolymerMan; 10-04-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2019, 05:12 PM
Icecream Icecream is offline
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There is so much misinformation out there about background checks and the BATF. I do not know it all and don't claim to but I have been an finger printed FFL for 17 years and attended BATF training seminars. Like a top secret clearance or SBI has nothing to do with a criminal background check. Its a chart they follow from your information directly from the 4473 for criminal history, the more information or description they have of who your are the better, that's it. If they get a no-go block with the current information, its passed off to a supervisor. Some times additional research is required so a delay response is given. If your information is flagged, denied response is given.

Straight from BATF, I was close. I should have pulled out seminar training material and read it first.

Why did ATF amend Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record, to include information on race and ethnicity? Form 4473 has included a question on race since it was established in 1968. ATF amended Form 4473 in 2001 to add ethnicity to the race question. In April 2012 to meet the requirements of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) regarding the format in which government forms ask about race and ethnicity the two questions were separated. OMB’s standards for race and ethnicity questions require agencies to ask both race and ethnicity in a specific manner. OMB published guidance to agencies regarding the adoption of these standards in 2000, but permitted ATF to continue using its existing form until 2012, when it required ATF to make changes to the format of the questions during the standard Paperwork Reduction Act approval process. To comply with OMB guidance, question 10 on Form 4473 was divided into 10a (Ethnicity) and 10b (Race); they are not a new requirement that prospective firearms purchasers provide additional information regarding race or ethnicity.

Did previous versions of ATF Form 4473 include demographic questions? Yes, per federal regulation, all previous versions of ATF Form 4473 have included demographic or identifying questions, including a question pertaining to race of prospective firearms purchasers. Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.124 (formerly 178.124), has required collection of information concerning the race and other identifying information of the transferee on Form 4473 since 1968.

Why is this demographic information needed? Demographic information can be useful to law enforcement when tracing firearms used in crimes, to ensure the correct identification of an original purchaser and avoid misidentifications. Additionally, during background checks, this information is needed to facilitate proper identification by providing additional information that helps match -- or rule out a match -- between an individual and a potentially prohibiting record. See 28 CFR 25.7
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Old 10-04-2019, 05:35 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Well, just because there's a std for other reasons, that does not mean the question has to even be asked.

There's no technical reason to ask 10a or 10b for BC to do a transfer of a firearm.

If 10a and 10b had any meaningful purpose for the transfer, and those questions were not per the OMB std, then fixing it to be the std would make sense. But in context of a 4473, 10a 10b makes absolutely no sense at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecream View Post
Why is this demographic information needed? Demographic information can be useful to law enforcement when tracing firearms used in crimes, to ensure the correct identification of an original purchaser and avoid misidentifications. Additionally, during background checks, this information is needed to facilitate proper identification by providing additional information that helps match -- or rule out a match -- between an individual and a potentially prohibiting record. See 28 CFR 25.7
All the other questions on 4473 are not enough to 100% distinguish someone? But adding 10a and 10b does?
How many times has a person been misidentified during a investigation by LE when a documented firearm serial is involved? I not sure I see the value if the scenario is "hmmm, black guy is ID'd on 4473, but the prints of this white guy are on the gun". or "ok, black guy is ID'd on 4473, and we have prints of a black guy on the gun, and they are not the same person". This helps how?
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Last edited by 1911_Kid; 10-04-2019 at 05:46 PM.
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:22 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911_Kid View Post
Well, just because there's a std for other reasons, that does not mean the question has to even be asked.

There's no technical reason to ask 10a or 10b for BC to do a transfer of a firearm.

If 10a and 10b had any meaningful purpose for the transfer, and those questions were not per the OMB std, then fixing it to be the std would make sense. But in context of a 4473, 10a 10b makes absolutely no sense at all.



All the other questions on 4473 are not enough to 100% distinguish someone? But adding 10a and 10b does?
How many times has a person been misidentified during a investigation by LE when a documented firearm serial is involved? I not sure I see the value if the scenario is "hmmm, black guy is ID'd on 4473, but the prints of this white guy are on the gun". or "ok, black guy is ID'd on 4473, and we have prints of a black guy on the gun, and they are not the same person". This helps how?
I agree 100%. The Hispanic population is as diverse as the non-Hispanic population and then you have people in both groups that are much more similar to each other then in the group they identify themselves with.

It is similar to when the Nazi regime in 1933 Germany asked if you were of Aryan or Non-Aryan heritage.

Which brings me to the question, is there a fear that there is some Spanish conquest of English speaking America?

Under that question, a person of White European heritage that is from a Latin Nation is lumped in with someone with 100% Indigenous native from South America.

Or in the non-Hispanic category someone from Iran is lumped in with someone with Heritage from Britain. The question does nothing to help identify the persons true ethnicity, but may have political undertones that date from the 19th century when there was rivalry between the Spanish speaking world and the English speaking world in the western hemisphere.

Like many of the bureaucratic government forms, it represents a sort of ignorance and lack of understanding cultural anthropology.

It's pseudo-science of sorts.

Imagine if a biologist wanted to document the animals of North America and surrounding seas, and they categorized 'Animals with tails', and 'Animals without tails' as the main categories of the fauna. That means humans, frogs, crabs, cockroaches and starfish would be lumped together, and wolves, birds,
lizards, and lobsters would be lumped in the other category.

There would be no scientific taxonomy based on genetic relationship, but rather some pseudo-scientific taxonomy based on ignorance of the subject.

It is what Antonin Scalia warned in US v Abramski that some bureaucrat could conjure up any irrelevant question on a government form and if you answer incorrectly, you could face perjury charge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrams...States#Dissent
Quote:
"[I]f the bureaucrats responsible for creating Form 4473 decided to ask about the buyer's favorite color, a false response would be a federal crime."[25] Justice Scalia concluded with the statement:

Last edited by PolymerMan; 10-04-2019 at 08:26 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:47 PM
Jacobconroy75 Jacobconroy75 is offline
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Those questions have been on those forms for my entire adult life. I'm not convinced that they are related to "racial media" issues.

Not sure why people are so sensitive about being asked to specify their ethnicity. If someone takes a guess about someone else's' ethnicity in this day and age, they are often publicly shamed no matter if they guess right or wrong. The only answer is to ask everyone to publicly state their ethnicity. Right? If you tell me how you "identify racially", then we will both know.

To suggest that ethnicity doesn't or shouldn't matter...is ridiculous. Ethnicity is a real thing. It isn't "dirty" or "negative" unless you or others make it so.

I happen to be Caucasian and I don't really care who knows about it. Wanna know a secret? People can identify my ethnicity on sight. Wanna know another secret? That premise almost certainly applies to you as well, no matter who you are. So, why the outrage?

People are too sensitive these days.
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