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  #26  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:02 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobconroy75 View Post
Those questions have been on those forms for my entire adult life. I'm not convinced that they are related to "racial media" issues.

Not sure why people are so sensitive about being asked to specify their ethnicity. If someone takes a guess about someone else's' ethnicity in this day and age, they are often publicly shamed no matter if they guess right or wrong. The only answer is to ask everyone to publicly state their ethnicity. Right? If you tell me how you "identify racially", then we will both know.

To suggest that ethnicity doesn't or shouldn't matter...is ridiculous. Ethnicity is a real thing. It isn't "dirty" or "negative" unless you or others make it so.

I happen to be Caucasian and I don't really care who knows about it. Wanna know a secret? People can identify my ethnicity on sight. Wanna know another secret? That premise almost certainly applies to you as well, no matter who you are. So, why the outrage?

People are too sensitive these days.
You are missing the point. It's not about being dirty or negative, or political correctness, or shame.

Its about being technically correct. The definition of Hispanic people as the US Government wants to impose is technically incorrect when used as an ethnicity as defined by these bureaucrats. Ask any cultural anthropologist. (BTW, Cultural anthropology has its incorrect issues, as well)

You have to read the back pages of the 4473 form to see how they apply the term Hispanic and that is not a correct definition.

But the government bureaucrats get to redefine the cultural or ethnicity terms simply because they can. Imagine if those same bureaucrats getting to redefine 300 years of Newtonian physics... like gravity or conservation of energy? I would imagine they would change established wisdom on that matter as well.

Understand? Quick example... a tomato and a zucchini are fruits to a botanist. Those are seed bearing parts of the plant... BUT!!!! To the US Department of Agriculture, they are vegetables. See the point I am making? Now I can imagine a zucchini doesn't really care how you categorize him, but some people may if they are forced to be called Hispanic and they have no Hispanic heritage and are lumped into a group of people that are completely unrelated to them or their ancestors.

Let me give you an example, lets say a set of parents are Irish. They are born in Ireland, and they trace their lineage to Ireland going back a 1000 years. They move to Bogota Columbia for a job,they have a child there, live there for just a few years, then move to New York City, where the child is raised and considers himself Irish-American.

Under the US Government definition, the ethnicity of that child is Hispanic... not Irish. They look at the birth certificate and if you are born in any of the countries named on the back of the 4473 form, you must identify yourself as Hispanic even if you don't speak a word of Spanish and Spanish culture was never part of you.
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  #27  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:04 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Originally Posted by Jacobconroy75 View Post
Those questions have been on those forms for my entire adult life. I'm not convinced that they are related to "racial media" issues.

Not sure why people are so sensitive about being asked to specify their ethnicity. If someone takes a guess about someone else's' ethnicity in this day and age, they are often publicly shamed no matter if they guess right or wrong. The only answer is to ask everyone to publicly state their ethnicity. Right? If you tell me how you "identify racially", then we will both know.

To suggest that ethnicity doesn't or shouldn't matter...is ridiculous. Ethnicity is a real thing. It isn't "dirty" or "negative" unless you or others make it so.

I happen to be Caucasian and I don't really care who knows about it. Wanna know a secret? People can identify my ethnicity on sight. Wanna know another secret? That premise almost certainly applies to you as well, no matter who you are. So, why the outrage?

People are too sensitive these days.
Ask the other question, if 10a and 10b serve no purpose at all in the transfer of a firearm, then why are they even on the form to begin with?

A form "full" of irrelevant questions serves what purpose? If it's not directly related to the transfer, then what are they for? Might as well add in a new 10c, "what brand car tires do you buy", and then there's 5 checkboxes to pick from with last one being "other", because certainly those buying Michelins are probably a specific set of people vs those buying the Douglas brand, and if ATF finds you lied then they got you, yet the question is totally irrelevant to the purpose of 4473.
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Last edited by 1911_Kid; 10-04-2019 at 10:16 PM.
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  #28  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:08 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911_Kid View Post
Ask the other question, if 10a and 10b service no purpose at all in the transfer of a firearm, then why are they even on the form to begin with.

A form "full" of irrelevant questions serves what purpose? If it's not directly related to the transfer, then what are they for?
... and that my good friend is precisely what Antonin Scalia expressed in his dissent in US v Abramski.
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  #29  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:09 PM
Jacobconroy75 Jacobconroy75 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
You are missing the point. It's not about being dirty or negative, or political correctness, or shame.

Its about being technically correct. The definition of Hispanic people as the US Government wants to impose is technically incorrect when used as an ethnicity as defined by these bureaucrats. Ask any cultural anthropologist. (BTW, Cultural anthropology has its incorrect issues, as well)

You have to read the back pages of the 4473 form to see how they apply the term Hispanic and that is not a correct definition.

But the government bureaucrats get to redefine the cultural or ethnicity terms simply because they can. Imagine if those same bureaucrats getting to redefine 300 years of Newtonian physics... like gravity or conservation of energy? I would imagine they would change established wisdom on that matter as well.

Understand? Quick example... a tomato and a zucchini are fruits to a botanist. Those are seed bearing parts of the plant... BUT!!!! To the US Department of Agriculture, they are vegetables. See the point I am making? Now I can imagine a zucchini doesn't really care how you categorize him, but some people may if they are forced to be called Hispanic and they have no Hispanic heritage and are lumped into a group of people that are completely unrelated to them or their ancestors.

Let me give you an example, lets say a set of parents are Irish. They are born in Ireland, and they trace their lineage to Ireland going back a 1000 years. They move to Bogota Columbia for a job,they have a child there, live there for just a few years, then move to New York City, where the child is raised and considers himself Irish-American.

Under the US Government definition, the ethnicity of that child is Hispanic... not Irish. They look at the birth certificate and if you are born in any of the countries named on the back of the 4473 form, you must identify yourself as Hispanic even if you don't speak a word of Spanish and Spanish culture was never part of you.
Well, you have a good point there. My people have been here for 100+ years. Our birth certificates are all in this country. Interesting to hear how a different set of circumstances can affect a persons "perceived ethnicity".

Food for thought.

Last edited by Jacobconroy75; 10-04-2019 at 10:10 PM. Reason: fine point
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:49 PM
anonymouscuban anonymouscuban is online now
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Originally Posted by Equin View Post
Iím considered ďHispanic,Ē American whose parents are from the US Territory of Puerto Rico to be exact. I could be wrong, but I think the other categories are distinguished by race. Hispanics can be of any race, though. Although many are mixed with European (mostly Spanish), Native American and African ancestors, there are quite a few who are not of mixed race who identify with only one racial category. So thatís my best guess as to why the Hispanic category is separate.



But as to why these questions are asked in the first place, I honestly donít know. Iím guessing itís more of a way to identify the person in question, not just by name and date of birth, but also by race and ethnicity. But I could be wrong about that, too.
Sounds about right. My "race" is white but I am Hispanic.

That said, I agree with those that said this is all irrelevant. My racial or ethnic makeup is completely irrelevant to who I am. It has zero to do with my intelligence, my integrity, my morality, my honesty. It's about as relevant as the color pants I'm wearing. However, we seem to be against racial and ethnic profiling for some stuff but its perfectly for others. Not OK by me. Treat me as an individual not as part of some group.

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  #31  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:53 PM
Equin Equin is offline
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Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
You are missing the point. It's not about being dirty or negative, or political correctness, or shame.

Its about being technically correct. The definition of Hispanic people as the US Government wants to impose is technically incorrect when used as an ethnicity as defined by these bureaucrats. Ask any cultural anthropologist. (BTW, Cultural anthropology has its incorrect issues, as well)

You have to read the back pages of the 4473 form to see how they apply the term Hispanic and that is not a correct definition.

But the government bureaucrats get to redefine the cultural or ethnicity terms simply because they can. Imagine if those same bureaucrats getting to redefine 300 years of Newtonian physics... like gravity or conservation of energy? I would imagine they would change established wisdom on that matter as well.

Understand? Quick example... a tomato and a zucchini are fruits to a botanist. Those are seed bearing parts of the plant... BUT!!!! To the US Department of Agriculture, they are vegetables. See the point I am making? Now I can imagine a zucchini doesn't really care how you categorize him, but some people may if they are forced to be called Hispanic and they have no Hispanic heritage and are lumped into a group of people that are completely unrelated to them or their ancestors.

Let me give you an example, lets say a set of parents are Irish. They are born in Ireland, and they trace their lineage to Ireland going back a 1000 years. They move to Bogota Columbia for a job,they have a child there, live there for just a few years, then move to New York City, where the child is raised and considers himself Irish-American.

Under the US Government definition, the ethnicity of that child is Hispanic... not Irish. They look at the birth certificate and if you are born in any of the countries named on the back of the 4473 form, you must identify yourself as Hispanic even if you don't speak a word of Spanish and Spanish culture was never part of you.
Excellent point. My sister traced some of our ancestors and discovered an Irishman with the last name of ďSolivanĒ (Sullivan) who immigrated to Puerto Rico sometime in the 1700ís. My guess is that Ireland, being a Catholic ally of Spain, and enemy of England at the time, was allowed to send immigrants to Spanish-held colonies in the Americas. Of course, that Irish ancestor of ours then married another ancestor Puerto Rican lady probably mixed with Spanish, Native American Taino and African blood. But the point is a good one.

Also, some Americans of Hispanic ethnicity donít like to be lumped in with all other Hispanics in America. Those of Cuban and Puerto Rican descent have a different culture, different foods, different music, different accents and use different Spanish words than those of Mexican descent. And those Americans of Mexican descent whose ancestors had settled in US states like Texas and New Mexico hundreds of years ago have significant historical and cultural differences from those who recently immigrated. But yet the categorization tends to lump all these groups of Americans together into one group despite the differences and complexities of each.

So again, Iím not sure why the question is asked on the Form 4473 other than to further identify the individual or perhaps to collect statistical data on the types of Americans applying to buy a firearm? Unless maybe there are other reasons Iím not aware of?
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  #32  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:40 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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anonymouscuban------------- I completely agree. Race is not relevant . Another thing I dislike is when I see an article that says "first black Phoenix Mayor elected" or some such.

I think the headline should be, simply, "Joe Smith elected as mayor"

That's it. His race needs no mention. Just like how there wouldn't be a headline like:

"179 lb man elected" There's no point in it.
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  #33  
Old 10-05-2019, 01:55 AM
Electricmo Electricmo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobconroy75 View Post
Those questions have been on those forms for my entire adult life. I'm not convinced that they are related to "racial media" issues.

Not sure why people are so sensitive about being asked to specify their ethnicity. If someone takes a guess about someone else's' ethnicity in this day and age, they are often publicly shamed no matter if they guess right or wrong. The only answer is to ask everyone to publicly state their ethnicity. Right? If you tell me how you "identify racially", then we will both know.

To suggest that ethnicity doesn't or shouldn't matter...is ridiculous. Ethnicity is a real thing. It isn't "dirty" or "negative" unless you or others make it so.

I happen to be Caucasian and I don't really care who knows about it. Wanna know a secret? People can identify my ethnicity on sight. Wanna know another secret? That premise almost certainly applies to you as well, no matter who you are. So, why the outrage?

People are too sensitive these days.
Not sensitive. But I would like to know why those questions are asked when it is a God Given right for me to be able to defend myself, why does it matter to the government what my race is when I'm exercising that right? I'm not at all mad just wondering what everyone's take is on the situation?
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  #34  
Old 10-05-2019, 06:38 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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They have us over a barrel when we’re completing a 4473 form. We’re buying a firearm. The government loves building databases and lists. Whether or not it’s accurate or right is down on their list.
I don’t like they still have SS# on there. Even though it’s listed as optional, my guess is many still put it in. With all the identity theft today, SS#s should be removed.

Does the BATF guarantee our information is safe, secure and confidential?
Show me.
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  #35  
Old 10-05-2019, 07:00 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is online now
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I can’t help it, I have chronic Toxic Masculinity. I am getting scrutinized and profiled by all the Nasty Women. Profiling is unfair and it hurts my feelings. Buying guns is just a symptom.
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  #36  
Old 10-05-2019, 07:13 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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A quick glance at the line at the local license bureau will show that all men are not created equal.
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  #37  
Old 10-05-2019, 09:56 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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And if you are a Dutch Caucasian from Johannesburg and become a U.S. citizen?

Yeppers - you are 100% African-American.

ALL meaningless ways to separate folks rather than be one with humanity.

Except of course for those doggone Jovian NeanderthalsÖ..
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  #38  
Old 10-05-2019, 10:07 AM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
... and that my good friend is precisely what Antonin Scalia expressed in his dissent in US v Abramski.
I do suspect, if a group of pro-2A took this issue to court it might end up at SCOTUS and we would prevail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
They have us over a barrel when we’re completing a 4473 form. We’re buying a firearm. The government loves building databases and lists. Whether or not it’s accurate or right is down on their list.
I don’t like they still have SS# on there. Even though it’s listed as optional, my guess is many still put it in. With all the identity theft today, SS#s should be removed.

Does the BATF guarantee our information is safe, secure and confidential?
Show me.
No, they can't secure crap, and to boot, all that paperwork is not secured well at the FFL (who's accessing the paperwork to steal info???). And to think States like CA also collect this data, you trust them too?
But know this, all your info (SS, credit card #'s, bank acct's, all your PII) has high probably that it's already out on dark web.
The best you can do is, freeze your credit reports with the 3 credit agencies and then lock away the PIN # they give you.
I no longer care about putting my SS# on any forms. For me, OPM was hacked some time ago and all my eQIP info was taken, which includes info about assets too !!
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Last edited by 1911_Kid; 10-05-2019 at 10:14 AM.
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  #39  
Old 10-05-2019, 09:36 PM
INV136 INV136 is offline
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What state does OP reside in where he has to fill out a "background check form" to purchase a gun? In Texas we just complete the BATFE form 4473 Firearms Transaction Record, which is not a "background check form," and present a License To Carry (which exempts us from the NICS "background check"). We don't fill out any "background check form."
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  #40  
Old 10-05-2019, 11:16 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Originally Posted by INV136 View Post
What state does OP reside in where he has to fill out a "background check form" to purchase a gun? In Texas we just complete the BATFE form 4473 Firearms Transaction Record, which is not a "background check form," and present a License To Carry (which exempts us from the NICS "background check"). We don't fill out any "background check form."
yeah, 4473 (5300.9) is a transfer doc.
but many do not have the luxury of "skipping" the NICS check, thus the 4473 is also seen as the BC, or at least the legal form (instrument) that requires the BC.

Why do you even have to answer question 11 of the 4473 if you have a LTC and FFL will check off #21 ???
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  #41  
Old 10-06-2019, 01:43 AM
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STORM2 STORM2 is online now
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With over 53 years on Uncle Sam’s payroll, TRICARE since retirement, almost as many years with an FAA Medical Certificates and recurrent documents. Contiguous Passports, DoD, DoJ, DoS and other who the hell knows who owns them forms I doubt I have much chance of privacy from Uncle Sam. Then there are the state records. The greater risk now are the increased outsourcing of the monster ever increasing government. It has become so big it takes civilian contractors to do the actual work. They hold the data and then they subcontract to whoever. Security is diluted until you can see through it. The good news....most of us are not on the 6pm news so relax, fill in the form, pay the man and smile knowing the sub-sub-sub contractor will screw up and loose the data.

Last edited by STORM2; 10-06-2019 at 01:53 AM.
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  #42  
Old 10-06-2019, 09:16 AM
Electricmo Electricmo is offline
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Originally Posted by INV136 View Post
What state does OP reside in where he has to fill out a "background check form" to purchase a gun? In Texas we just complete the BATFE form 4473 Firearms Transaction Record, which is not a "background check form," and present a License To Carry (which exempts us from the NICS "background check"). We don't fill out any "background check form."
I live in Missouri. I have a CCW permit and still have to fill out the form and wait for the Government to clear my purchase at the LGS before acquiring the firearm. Usually less than 10 minutes.
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  #43  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:24 PM
tipoc tipoc is offline
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IIRC question 10A and B used to be voluntary (like the SS # question #8) and were worded differently. As pointed out that was changed a few years ago.

It was also pointed out earlier that the ATF states plainly why they are collecting the info.

Quote:
Question 10.a. and 10.b. Federal regulations (27 CFR 478.124(c)(1)) require
licensees to obtain the race of the transferee/buyer. This information helps the FBI
and/or State POC make or rule out potential matches during the background check
process and can assist with criminal investigations.
Pursuant to Office of
Management and Budget (OMB), effective January 1, 2003, all Federal agencies
requiring collection of race and ethnicity information on administrative forms and
records, were required to collect this information in a standard format. (See 62 FR
58782) The standard OMB format consists of two categories for data on ethnicity:
"Hispanic or Latino," and "Not Hispanic or Latino" and five categories for data on
race: American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black or African American,
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, and White.
(To see what a state POC is go here https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...dy-state-lists)

According to them it's about making it easier to track the individual buyer of the gun in the event of a criminal investigation. Which means that they keep this information for a long time. The very last sentence of the form let's you know that "confidentiality is not assured", regarding the information. So other agencies with a Office of Budget and Management identifying number can access the information. If not the forms the information.

As far as the wording goes they explain that it is to standardize the wording across all federal forms.

As for question 10 the form used to say "Hispanic or Latino" and "Non-Hispanic White". It currently says "Hispanic or Latino" and "Not Hispanic or Latino". Which is at least clearer. The questions used to be voluntary.

This is a bureaucratic form used by cops to help them track the guns and the buyers. It's a cop thing. At the same time the language of questions 10a and 10b are from other bureaucratic agencies and match the language used by other agencies across the board for whatever purposes they have. This alone lets you know the information is shared.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; 10-06-2019 at 12:29 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:43 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Quote:
Question 10.a. and 10.b. Federal regulations (27 CFR 478.124(c)(1)) require
licensees to obtain the race of the transferee/buyer. This information helps the FBI
and/or State POC make or rule out potential matches during the background check
process and can assist with criminal investigations.
So riddle me the scenario.

NICS agent only obtains a distinction of the applicant based on 10a and/or 10b?
This would mean all the other questions matched with more than one person?
Seems very VERY not probable. Stolen identity could be something, like a white guy gets ID of a black man but does not know that the ID was from a black man, so when NICS gets it their side pulls up the ID as a black man but 4473 says "white".

I find the explanation to be hogwash. It's straight up profiling, and I see no value in knowing the yearly race/ethnicity stats of those using form 4473.
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  #45  
Old 10-06-2019, 01:17 PM
Icecream Icecream is offline
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I am not defending this just trying to get the info out there. Again, there is so much misinformation and misunderstanding, I am not an expert its I have been to BATF seminars with 17 years as FFL.
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  #46  
Old 10-06-2019, 01:34 PM
tipoc tipoc is offline
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I don't know how it is in other states but where I live, for folks to buy a handgun they have to show a drivers license or other photo ID, show a card from the state that they passed their Basic Firearms Safety Course both written and gun handling parts, provide a fingerprint, wait 10 days for the NICS to clear and of course pay the fees and taxes.

So unless a person has an entirely fake identity it would be hard.

There is the ticket.

This is a cop thing. So think like a cop to see it. This is a country where we take off our shoes to get on a plane, and carry our shampoo and toothpaste in a clear bag. Where I can't carry a pocket knife into a football game. Cops with guns are there to stop me. If it theoretically, maybe, can help them track a terrorist they want the data.

It's another data point that they have and they love data. States and other agencies have access to the raw data. This comes from the Brady bill. Not the wording of the questions but that the POC and OBM can use the data. https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...dy-state-lists

Does this help the ATF track stolen guns? I don't know. I do know that they like to collect information and they, the ATF or another agency, will use it one way or another. If for nothing else than to say "more Black people are buying guns in Nebraska" or something similar.

If it violates someones rights, well when did they care about that?

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; 10-06-2019 at 01:38 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10-06-2019, 07:42 PM
RED HORSE RED HORSE is offline
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Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
anonymouscuban------------- I completely agree. Race is not relevant . Another thing I dislike is when I see an article that says "first black Phoenix Mayor elected" or some such.

I think the headline should be, simply, "Joe Smith elected as mayor"

That's it. His race needs no mention. Just like how there wouldn't be a headline like:

"179 lb man elected" There's no point in it.
And this is exactly why we continue to have a race problem in the U.S. The question to ask is who is benefiting from continuing the race issue.
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  #48  
Old 10-06-2019, 08:59 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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People who feel marginalized & think that centuries of oppression can be Made Square / paid back.
+ people who want to feel good by "helping" the above. With programs or by voting.

But we cannot Square Up with this. So we gotta just let it go. Move on.

And what would help solve racial inequality, in my opinion, would be to ignore racial differences altogether.

The first step is easy: Remove racial questions, if any, on government, school, employment, and financial documents.

Some folks have even suggested not hiring or choosing students with names on the applications.

Just Candidate # 45689. So it's a 100% level playing field based solely on merit.

That way Mike Adams, Laquisha Washington, and Akmar Bajabadad all have the same chance at the spot. Interesting idea.
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  #49  
Old 10-06-2019, 09:03 PM
INV136 INV136 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911_Kid View Post
yeah, 4473 (5300.9) is a transfer doc.
but many do not have the luxury of "skipping" the NICS check, thus the 4473 is also seen as the BC, or at least the legal form (instrument) that requires the BC.

Why do you even have to answer question 11 of the 4473 if you have a LTC and FFL will check off #21 ???
I would imagine that they require them because they would prosecute someone who falsely answered those questions, for perjury. Just because someone has an LTC doesn't mean that they might not try and commit a straw man purchase for another person or might be addicted to or be an unlawful user of marijuana.
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  #50  
Old 10-06-2019, 11:24 PM
remanaz remanaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
....wait 10 days for the NICS to clear ....
That 10 day wait is not for NICS. NICS only takes a few minutes.
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