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  #1  
Old 05-14-2017, 11:12 AM
derweibhai derweibhai is offline
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Handgun course 1911 safety question

So I was at a handgun instructor class re-certification the other day and got a little PO-ed, and want to pose a question to you guys. I was using a 1911 of course.

So part of the qualification is starting at low ready, starting with finger outside the trigger guard, you have to come up on the timer beep, and fire 3 rounds in under 1 second from 5 yards in a reduced size target. No problem right?

My issue was that they were requiring me (the only guy in the class not using a Glock) to start with the safety engaged. (I have timed myself and it takes me an average of .19-.20 longer to disengage the safety and fire from this position. My argument is that I disengage my safety upon rotation out of the holster when I put both hands on the gun during the draw stroke. Of course the Glock guys didnt have this issue without the safety.

I was over on a few of the times by a couple 100ths of a second, but it was still points off what would have been a perfect score.

You guys have any thoughts on this, I am still ticked off obviously.

Last edited by derweibhai; 05-14-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-14-2017, 11:37 AM
Oldfut808 Oldfut808 is online now
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A 1911 should not be a problem.

A da/sa gun that requires a long pull on the first shot would be a problem.
Especially something like a sw 39/59/69 series that decocks on safe, then requires an awkward upward movement on the safety lever, then a long da first shot.

So what were you using?
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Last edited by Oldfut808; 05-14-2017 at 11:47 AM.
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  #3  
Old 05-14-2017, 11:47 AM
derweibhai derweibhai is offline
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It is the Nebraska LEO firearm instructor re-certification. It requires you to have your sights on the bottom of the FBI Q target at 3 and 5 yards and you have to raise the pistol and fire 3 shots in under 1 second at the beep inside a reduced sized portion of the target.

My issue is that under any other circumstance the safety would be off as the gun rotated towards the target. The extra "grip squeeze" of taking off the safety can throw a shot off at 5 yards when you are trying to shoot that fast.

I carry a Sig Traditional Match Elite .40
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  #4  
Old 05-14-2017, 11:50 AM
Howe.45ACP Howe.45ACP is online now
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I'd sacrifice a few points just to keep a Glock off of my hip...just sayin

I can understand your concerns.
Not trying to be an ass.

Last edited by Howe.45ACP; 05-14-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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  #5  
Old 05-14-2017, 01:00 PM
derweibhai derweibhai is offline
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I agree, it was more annoying than anything.
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  #6  
Old 05-14-2017, 01:22 PM
Howe.45ACP Howe.45ACP is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derweibhai View Post
I agree, it was more annoying than anything.
Yea I bet... You're singled out & penalized just cuz you have style. Typical. The ro is prolly logged into J "tuck & run" Yagers blog 24/7 too.
Glad to hear you posted a good score.
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Old 05-14-2017, 01:39 PM
88MARINE 88MARINE is offline
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Originally Posted by Howe.45ACP View Post
Yea I bet... You're singled out & penalized just cuz you have style. Typical. The ro is prolly logged into J "tuck & run" Yagers blog 24/7 too.
Glad to hear you posted a good score.
I just fell off my bar stool...... that was funny........
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Old 05-14-2017, 01:44 PM
Oldfut808 Oldfut808 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derweibhai View Post
It is the Nebraska LEO firearm instructor re-certification. It requires you to have your sights on the bottom of the FBI Q target at 3 and 5 yards and you have to raise the pistol and fire 3 shots in under 1 second at the beep inside a reduced sized portion of the target.

My issue is that under any other circumstance the safety would be off as the gun rotated towards the target. The extra "grip squeeze" of taking off the safety can throw a shot off at 5 yards when you are trying to shoot that fast.

I carry a Sig Traditional Match Elite .40
....
My coworker is there now attending her brother's graduation from Creighton. Lol.

Anyway, I had to Google your gun because sig 1911s are not common here.
It's beautiful. you're lucky to be allowed to carry it.
I did shoot a sig1911 a couple years ago. The owner was all over the paper.
So I looked at it and popped a few rounds off at 25 yards freestyle.
I was very impressed with it. It shot a tiny little cluster.
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  #9  
Old 05-14-2017, 02:13 PM
derweibhai derweibhai is offline
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Mine is a 1.5 inch gun at 50 yards, and I can run our states LEO patrol rifle qual course with it at 100% including all time limits (I have seen combat Marines fail it with box stock M4's). I win bets with it all the time, and I dont gamble unless its a sure thing.

I have been happy with it so far, other than .40 has more recoil than the same piece in 45acp. Perfect reliability as well.
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  #10  
Old 05-14-2017, 10:27 PM
DT Guy DT Guy is offline
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Honestly, I've never felt the safety on a 1911 slowed me down in any way; starting with my thumb on the safety, it's coming off as the trigger finger enters the guard. I've never timed it, but it certainly FEELS like it's *nearly* simultaneous with the trigger pull.

Regardless, I do think that requiring a 1911 to start a drill with the safety on is 'fair' in most cases.

Larry
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  #11  
Old 05-14-2017, 10:51 PM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
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Is your 1911 a .45? What caliber were the Glocks?

I don't feel the safety is a major issue. Caliber will be for follow-up shots within 1 second.
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  #12  
Old 05-15-2017, 12:06 PM
tjpaxton tjpaxton is offline
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It's standard procedure to start any course of fire with the safety "on". You should not disengage the safety until you are certain you are going to fire and sighting/pointing at your target. This safety rule not only applies to range qualification, but real life law enforcement encounters.

By you automatically disengaging your safety every time you take your gun out of your holster, you are violating standard safety practices, LE or civilian. That is a bad habit to have. Your safety should not come "off" until you decide deadly force is necessary and you actually pull the trigger.

As long as you qualify, who cares about your final score.
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Last edited by tjpaxton; 05-15-2017 at 12:17 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-15-2017, 12:10 PM
zogger zogger is offline
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Interesting.

First, I agree with you that you should have been allowed to have the safety off. No reason to penalize you. Plus If I had my gun drawn and were at the low ready, the thumb safety would have been off.

However, I time myself regularly and I have not seen any increase in time because I have to disengage the thumb safety while I raise the gun-assuming I have my thumb on the safety and leave it there when I push it off. If I click off the safety and move my thumb below the safety, that does seem to take some time.

Next time I am at the range I will try some tests and let you know.
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2017, 12:42 PM
tjpaxton tjpaxton is offline
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To add a little more to my previous post (above). I have no problem with making everyone start with their safety engaged, whether their gun has a safety or not. LE or not.

Maybe your concern or grievance should be the one-second time limit for this particular drill. Let's break this down. The average person takes a quarter-second to perceive a threat. It takes another quarter-second to formulate a plan of action, whether that be to zig, or zag, take cover, or fire your weapon. You've already burned a half-second. It is realistic to expect someone to fire 3 well-placed shots in the remaining half-second?

The one-second time limit is probably the better debate, rather than whether or not you can start with your safety "off'.
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  #15  
Old 05-15-2017, 12:50 PM
derweibhai derweibhai is offline
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I wish we would have had time to review our timer results, but we had too many on the firing line to do so.

I did do some independent research though. I know from experience that I average .18-.20 sec longer with the safety on. .18 is a pretty achievable split time for me, maybe even a little slow. The reaction time for officers in deadly force shootings seems to average .39 in testing (see below).

So basically 3 shots at .18 splits is .54 seconds add in my .20 for the safety and you are up to .74 total minus the reaction time. World champion shooters average .17-18 reaction time from beep to first shot and that doesn't come from low ready.

I was only over time a couple times and then it was only by .003 or so, but still counted as a miss.

Though it was interesting to see it broken down like that.

When I preform my normal draw my safety goes off when the gun rotates and both hands make contact, this is basically right when the gun is at chest level a few inches from my vest. I can fire from there all the way out to full extension. In this manner, the safety doesn't add any time at all.

https://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3705348-New-reaction-time-study-addresses-whats-reasonable-in-armed-suspect-encounters/
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:02 PM
derweibhai derweibhai is offline
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An analysis of low ready and it's effect on times.

http://americancopmagazine.com/ready-positions/

This guy was between .25 for finger on trigger and .35 for finger off for a first shot from low ready.

It does seem that we will be some of the last of the officers doing this 3 shots in 1 second standard. They will be changing to a 90% on the regular state qual for the future certifications. I don't agree with this as it will make it way easy, my only gripe was the safety. I would venture a guess that someone using a Beretta 92/96 would have no chance in the current version of the qual.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:03 PM
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RickB RickB is offline
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I do "drills" like that regularly, starting from low ready, finger out of the guard, with option of manual safety on or off, and when I do the former the safety is off before I'm on target; how is disengaging the safety being turned into an "extra step" that adds time to the drill?

Are you starting with your thumb below the safety, raising your thumb, disengaging, then dropping the thumb down to re-grip the gun?
That definitely is an extra step.

Based on what I've read about LEO qualification, and that may be out of date, the described drill is pretty ambitious if officers aren't training constantly.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:08 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I do "drills" like that regularly, starting from low ready, finger out of the guard, with option of manual safety on or off, and when I do the former the safety is off before I'm on target; how is disengaging the safety being turned into an "extra step" that adds time to the drill?

Are you starting with your thumb below the safety, raising your thumb, disengaging, then dropping the thumb down to re-grip the gun?
That definitely is an extra step.

Based on what I've read about LEO qualification, and that may be out of date, the described drill is pretty ambitious if officers aren't training constantly.
I agree. I'm kinda confused as how flipping the safety off added time?
From low ready flip safety off on the raise and fire. Safety on or off shouldn't add time to the equation?
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  #19  
Old 05-15-2017, 05:34 PM
derweibhai derweibhai is offline
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Must be my training scars, but for me that is the amount of time that it adds. I always have my thumb on top of the safety other than when I re-engage the safety.

Remember this is finger outside the trigger guard up on the slide and safely on. Finger inside the trigger guard pressed against the front of the guard with the safety on doesn't add any time, it is the combination of raising the gun a foot or more, disengagement the safety, and putting my finger inside the trigger guard that all takes time. Remember this is three semi precision shots, not just firing.

I am also 6'3 with unusually long fingers, my trigger fingers first joint sits on the front of the trigger guard when alongside.

Not making excuses, obviously I did ok, I just don't get the whole safety on thing at that point on target when all trainings I have ever done are safety off upon rotation.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:01 AM
Fazer386 Fazer386 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derweibhai View Post
So I was at a handgun instructor class re-certification the other day and got a little PO-ed, and want to pose a question to you guys. I was using a 1911 of course.

So part of the qualification is starting at low ready, starting with finger outside the trigger guard, you have to come up on the timer beep, and fire 3 rounds in under 1 second from 5 yards in a reduced size target. No problem right?

My issue was that they were requiring me (the only guy in the class not using a Glock) to start with the safety engaged. (I have timed myself and it takes me an average of .19-.20 longer to disengage the safety and fire from this position. My argument is that I disengage my safety upon rotation out of the holster when I put both hands on the gun during the draw stroke. Of course the Glock guys didnt have this issue without the safety.

I was over on a few of the times by a couple 100ths of a second, but it was still points off what would have been a perfect score.

You guys have any thoughts on this, I am still ticked off obviously.

Off target, safety goes on and finger comes off the trigger. At low ready, come up on target swipe the safety and prep the trigger. Practice until it's second nature. The two should happen at the same time.

Wow, low ready, 3 rounds in 1 second on a reduced target. What instructor certificate are you testing for? I've never heard of that string.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:16 AM
drail drail is offline
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Yup. It has to be an ingrained automatic thing. You can't make popping off the safety into an additional step. I also think the test should be concentrated more on hits than speed.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:11 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is online now
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If at low ready, I would engage the safety anyway. That is what I do. It would not add time to disengage.
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  #23  
Old 05-21-2017, 12:45 PM
zogger zogger is offline
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I did a test at home using a laser bullet and target. This is a good simulation because you have to hit the laser target to get a time. It forced me to get the sights on the target before I pulled the trigger.

I shot from low ready with my 1911 and a full mag of dummy rounds. The test with the safety on was with my finger off trigger and my thumb on top of the thumb safety. Test with the safety off was with my finger off the trigger and my thumb below the thumb safety. I took 20 shots each way and averaged my best 5 times.

My best time was .79 seconds-which I did twice. I did this both with and w/o the safety on.

Result: .04 seconds faster with the safety off than on.

Given my usual time between shots is .25 to .33 seconds, I'd say the difference would not change my overall times either way.

As always, your mileage may vary.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:04 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
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Sorry but no sympathy from me. My Department teaches finger on frame and safety on. As the shooter goes to on target, either from the holster or low ready, the trigger finger moves to the trigger and the safety is disengaged.

This is pretty much universal, shotgun, AR, or 1911.
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  #25  
Old 05-21-2017, 09:34 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zogger View Post
I did a test at home using a laser bullet and target. This is a good simulation because you have to hit the laser target to get a time. It forced me to get the sights on the target before I pulled the trigger.

I shot from low ready with my 1911 and a full mag of dummy rounds. The test with the safety on was with my finger off trigger and my thumb on top of the thumb safety. Test with the safety off was with my finger off the trigger and my thumb below the thumb safety. I took 20 shots each way and averaged my best 5 times.

My best time was .79 seconds-which I did twice. I did this both with and w/o the safety on.

Result: .04 seconds faster with the safety off than on.

Given my usual time between shots is .25 to .33 seconds, I'd say the difference would not change my overall times either way.

As always, your mileage may vary.
Based on your experiment, the TOTAL difference in your time should be only .04 seconds... disengagining the safety shouldn't affect your splits, just the time until first round on target.
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