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  #1  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:02 PM
ShallowWaterAngler ShallowWaterAngler is offline
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Why do even 1911 "experts" hedge everything they say?

So I watch YouTube videos and read several web articles. I'm getting tired of even so called 1911 guys saying things like, "I love my 1911 BUT"

it's less forgiving.
It's ammo sensitive.
You have to be dedicated to it.
It has more bobbles.
You have to understand it's a 100 year old design.
It doesn't have the capacity of modern firearms.
You have to train to disengage the safety.
It's too heavy for carry.
Anything less than a commander isn't reliable.
Requires more maintenance?
Requires more gunsmithing to tweak it to work well?
And so on........

I find this incredibly irritating. To me it seems that the "experts" don't want to get any flack for liking the 1911 (like they should be ashamed of it).

What is it less forgiving of? Limp wristing? Not as much as many others.

Ammo sensitive? Combine 10 different 1911s with 5 different magazine manufacters and 10 different ammo types and you have 500 different combinations, and your shocked not all work flawlessly? I've seen glocks that were just as ammo sensitive.

Dedicated? Why because it is so different from every other gun that you couldn't possibly figure out how to use it in a home invasion if you happen to happen to also own a beretta or a wheel gun?

100 year old design? So the design worked well then but not now???

Capacity??? Umm. John Browning fixed that supposed problem with the Hi Power decades ago. Besides, how many people are complaining about the capacity of their revolvers or of their single stack glocks?

Too heavy for carry? First it's no heavier than any other full sized steel gun. Second, they do make them in smaller models if you don't carry on a belt.

Not reliable at small sizes? Does it need to shoot 1000 rounds without a hiccup to protect me? No. It just needs to fire when I pull the trigger. Sure you can get a lemon every now and again, but look at glocks. They have lemons of their own, and that's just one brand, not the dozen that make a 1911.

Maintenance? Who brags that their car will run 1000 miles without any oil? Why is it a big deal then for guns? Clean your guns. And btw John Browning, and many others, have proven the design in numerous torture tests. Besides not all guns are built to be tortured. Some have tight tolerances and are built more for shootability than reliability under dirty shooting scenarios. Why then should they be lumped together?

Gunsmithing? I saw Vickers telling Yeager that he shoots for Colt, and then shortly after saying the 1911 needs more tweaking from a gunsmith? Are you kidding me? I don't even know a gunsmith, but somehow my gun runs just fine. Maybe I'm just lucky. Then again, maybe it doesn't need as much attention as suggested. If Glock loses the rights to their name and their designs, and clones start being made from every company all over the world, including all of the aftermarket parts, I wonder how many people will start saying glocks need more gunsmithing, especially for all of these drop in parts used to modify them.

Well I'm done ranting. Beck of a first post, but I've been lurking here for about a year. Oh and if some words seem incoherent, I blame autocorrect.
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:07 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is online now
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Meh.
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:08 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Cars, guns, computers, motorcycles, golf clubs... everybody is an expert nowadays thanks to YouTube. "Meh", indeed.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1946 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #4  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:15 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Another vote for 'meh'. Take 'experts' with a grain of salt. There are as many self-described experts as there are idiots out there, and sometimes, the two converge, namely on Youtube.
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  #5  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:28 PM
ShallowWaterAngler ShallowWaterAngler is offline
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Correction to original post. I said Vickers. I believe it was actually Hackathorn who was telling this to Yeager.
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  #6  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:32 PM
Dangerous Dangerous is offline
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The 1911 may be a 100 year old design but the wheel is thousands of years old and still works fine.
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  #7  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:41 PM
ACPete ACPete is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Cars, guns, computers, motorcycles, golf clubs... everybody is an expert nowadays thanks to YouTube. "Meh", indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Another vote for 'meh'. Take 'experts' with a grain of salt. There are as many self-described experts as there are idiots out there, and sometimes, the two converge, namely on Youtube.
Yes, YouTube is often YouBoob.

Let 100 + years of service speak for the 1911...not Joe "expert".

(no offense to any Joes here)
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  #8  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:55 PM
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When the Beretta 92F was adopted by the Army in 1985 all the gun rags were talking about how it was state of the art in handguns, and how the old M1911A1 would soon be relegated to museum displays alongside Lugers and Broomhandles. 30 years later we all know how that worked out... the 1911 is more popular than ever and the Beretta is now the one soon to be confined to museums.

I'm sure back in the 1950s people were talking about how the Army's .45 Automatic didn't beat a good .357 Magnum revolver either. Heck, as far back as the 1920s "experts" were pointing out how a .45 Auto was too complicated to use, the FMJ bullet lacked stopping power compared to a good .44WCF or .45LC lead slug, and how it became useless if you lost the magazine for it. Some things never change.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1946 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.

Last edited by dsk; 02-15-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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  #9  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:59 PM
Snoopy47 Snoopy47 is offline
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First off, the OP only has 2 posts.

Nextly, a 1911 is not a 1911 is not a 1911.

A polymer is a polymer is a polymer. Meaning, Who's making aftermarket M&P's, Glocks, XD's, and the like?

Start going to matches were folks are tweaking their guns left and right and you will see random mechanical problems from every make and model.
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  #10  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:13 PM
UncleEd UncleEd is offline
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I think the OP is saying the 1911 is a good gun and it doesn't need all the qualifiers.
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  #11  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:44 PM
Martowski Martowski is offline
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Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
First off, the OP only has 2 posts.

Nextly, a 1911 is not a 1911 is not a 1911.

A polymer is a polymer is a polymer. Meaning, Who's making aftermarket M&P's, Glocks, XD's, and the like?

Start going to matches were folks are tweaking their guns left and right and you will see random mechanical problems from every make and model.
Agree... 1911 is a pattern, not a brand. Whereas polymers are all branded so there's greater consistency between various individual examples of the same model (think comparing a G19 to a G19, vs comparing 1911s from various manufacturers).

I will say, though, that the OP only having two posts doesn't necessarily correlate to shooting experience. Could just mean they are on the internet less. Or, it could mean something else. Either way, welcome.
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:56 PM
Gary Wells Gary Wells is online now
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Now I know why I never frequent youtude .
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  #13  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:29 PM
Black Jack Black Jack is offline
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Unfortunately, a lot of the "experts" will tell you whatever they have to in order to please whomever is paying them.

As for the "YouBoobers", well, back in the 60's, 70's and early 80's was the beginning of the trend to modify the 1911 for greater customization and accuracy. The result was something that was very accurate, but also very finicky about ammunition and somewhat unreliable. After a while - late 80's and into the 90's - the better gunsmiths finally figured out how to customize the 1911 and make it more accurate while keeping it reliable. I find that most of those that accuse the 1911 of being unreliable are still spouting off about the issues from way back then without really knowing what they are talking about.

Personally, I have never had any reliability issues with the 1911 platform, either the older ones that I used in the military, nor the newer production models.

Of course, anytime a manufacturer tries something new, they risk a period of troubleshooting until they "get it right" - I believe that Kimber had issues when it tried moving to an external extractor, but others since then run external extractors without problem. These things happen and are not unique to the 1911 platform, or even to firearms for that matter, and should not be taken as a reflection on the 1911 platform, but rather as an R&D glitch that still needs to, and will be worked out.
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:41 PM
79JMP 79JMP is offline
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Experts and opinions are what BJ's are to fellatio.

They all suck.


Have mercy.
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  #15  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:46 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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The real problem isn't the 1911.

It the vast number of manufacturers making some variety of 1911 original design.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Let's face it. There are some other "Patented Guns" whose patents have expired and then you have a variety of gun makers making copies.

Remember, once the patents are public domain, anyone can freely make one without a licensing agreement or fee. Plus they have the right to modify that design. A good example is the Winchester Model 1894 lever action rifle. There are several Italian manufacturers that make that gun, plus some American companies that made that gun. The quality on those have been all over the place historically.

Now back to the real issue. Some manufacturers are good and other suck at making things. Same with cars, radios, TVs, cellphones.

If you had 10 different car manufacturers making the same model vehicle... i.e a Ford F150, and all of them using the same blueprints, I am sure some guys would make a perfect F150 (and it might not be Ford), some would be junk, and some would make a decent truck at an affordable price.

Now take Glock for instance. Their design isn't something that is copied by 10 different manufacturers. I don't believe their design is public domain and may be protected by a copyright, which may last longer than a patent.

Glock controls all guns called 'Glock' and so they have more control on their design and manufacturing. Sometimes they make problem guns, but they have a good reputation because they have 100% control of their design and production.
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:56 PM
oldman45 oldman45 is offline
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I have been shooting 1911 guns for some 50 years. Never had an issue with any of them except for Llamas. Even the cheap military 1911s worked well for me.

As to experts hedging their opinions, well as an expert in court I must hedge my opinions because they can come back to bite me in the rear. Anything said can be brought up later as being said for 100% fact and nothing is ever 100%.
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:59 PM
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tgt_usa tgt_usa is offline
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Plus ...

... an expert knows enough about the topic of expertise, including the exceptions to the rules, that they -have- to hedge ... usually.



;- )
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:34 PM
Maddog521 Maddog521 is online now
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I don't believe everything I read on the W W W!
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:36 PM
Pedro 1 Pedro 1 is online now
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... an expert knows enough about the topic of expertise, including the exceptions to the rules, that they -have- to hedge ... usually.



;- )
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:16 PM
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Now I know why I never frequent youtude .
There's a lot of good stuff on YouTube, but whenever I click on links about 2/3 of the time I find myself immediately shutting them off after a few seconds and going to something else. All it takes is a cheesy intro or some off-camera dude saying "Heyyyyy Yoootooobe, wassup?" and I know it was made by somebody who was off drinking beer when the brains were handed out. But fortunately there are enough good ones on there that I now watch YouTube videos exclusively and no longer even bother subscribing to TV channels.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1946 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:11 PM
Citruslime45 Citruslime45 is offline
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I agree, it's pretty silly. Supposedly, 1911 fans are the most fanatical and unreasonable of all, yet anyone on the internet who proclaims that they believe it's the handgun best suited for their personal self defense needs gets endlessly flamed. Meanwhile, you'll have people who straight up declare that the Glock is the bestest pistol ever outright, and somehow you're an idiot for voicing any disagreement. You're not even allowed to express the sentiment that maybe the 1911 is still viable in today's world.

Unforgiving and difficult to use? Tell it to all the greenhorns who fought in both world wars, Korea, and Vietnam-or the FBI testers who fired 17500 rounds through the Springfield Professional without a single malfunction. For most of my life, I'd thought the 1911 had a reputation for being rock stout reliable, and it's only been in the past 2 years or so that I've heard (through these aforementioned internet experts) that it's supposedly "finicky." And regarding the manual safety, call it a ridiculous argument, but I don't even own a 1911 and I reflexively slip off the imaginary safety whenever I practice an empty handed draw.

Yes, the 1911 is heavy for its capacity-but it's very rare that there are any free lunches in reality, and this is one example. More weight means less recoil; single stack means a thinner, more ergonomic grip that's also easier to carry. I mean, hey, if we're going by the oft-repeated mantra that shot placement is king, then that recoil, grip, trigger, and mechanical accuracy sure do seem to make the gun a good tool for putting holes where you want them.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:18 PM
july19 july19 is offline
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Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
The real problem isn't the 1911.

It the vast number of manufacturers making some variety of 1911 original design.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Let's face it. There are some other "Patented Guns" whose patents have expired and then you have a variety of gun makers making copies.

Remember, once the patents are public domain, anyone can freely make one without a licensing agreement or fee. Plus they have the right to modify that design. A good example is the Winchester Model 1894 lever action rifle. There are several Italian manufacturers that make that gun, plus some American companies that made that gun. The quality on those have been all over the place historically.

Now back to the real issue. Some manufacturers are good and other suck at making things. Same with cars, radios, TVs, cellphones.

If you had 10 different car manufacturers making the same model vehicle... i.e a Ford F150, and all of them using the same blueprints, I am sure some guys would make a perfect F150 (and it might not be Ford), some would be junk, and some would make a decent truck at an affordable price.

Now take Glock for instance. Their design isn't something that is copied by 10 different manufacturers. I don't believe their design is public domain and may be protected by a copyright, which may last longer than a patent.

Glock controls all guns called 'Glock' and so they have more control on their design and manufacturing. Sometimes they make problem guns, but they have a good reputation because they have 100% control of their design and production.
Fully agree with this ^ analogy. What if Stan Chen or__________(whomever you would like to insert)was the only smith/manufacturer producing 1911's?
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:20 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Over the course of my life.

I have run into a great number of people that claimed to be "experts". Some of them were even hired by people that I worked for. The idea being that they would train us to be better at what we already knew how to do. Some of them had things to say that were beneficial to us. At least as many of them were feather merchants.

Back when they started hijacking merchant ships for ransom. The company hired some of these experts to come up with plans for all of the shipboard crews to deal with boarding's by pirates. They sent a bunch of these "experts out to each ship in the fleet to tailor a "security plan" for each ship. OK so this is all well and good. There were three of them that road my ship for a couple of weeks. They would walk around all purposeful with notebooks and flashlights, they loved their flashlights. And nod and make hushed comments amongst them selves. Occasionally they would ask a question.

Well eventually they came up with this grand "security plan" for our vessel.
Interestingly enough this plan included provisions for all crew members to retreat to a "safe space". This in the event that the ship was completely compromised and controlled by hostiles. A space that could be sealed off with steel watertight doors. In our case this turned out to be a cargo hold that was no longer utilized due to cargo requirements for the current charter.

So when they gave us this grand plan. And I pointed out to them that this cargo hold that was designated for this purpose was a CO2 protected space. Additionally that the CO2 fire suppression system for this hold could be activated from either the bridge or the engine control room. And that the instructions for doing so were clearly labeled to include pictograms for non English speakers. Talk about the wet blanket effect on these "experts" What a bunch of ding dongs.
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  #24  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:16 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is online now
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People can argue about the surpremacy of platforms all they want. Though the reality is, there is no surperior. Criticisms of the 1911 mean little. Some say it is picky with ammo. So what if it does not take certain ammo, carry it with ammo it likes. Another argument is they are higher maintainence to keep going, for a tight tolerance "race gun" this may be true. But a run of the mill "mil-spec" pistol is not going to face such issues, unless they are lemons, which is not the design's fault. In four wars, and the heavy training around them, these guns were able to last. They may have rattled a bunch afterward, but they worked. As for magazine capacity goes with proper training you can make quick changes. Same goes for the safety switch, it becomes second nature if you're trained. So in the end it is really no better or worse than competing platforms. When it comes to accuracy, reliability, and durability . What happens is Glock guys drink too much of their kool-aid, and start to find problems in the classic Browning design that are not really there. And unfortunately 1911 owners start to belive their bull crap. However the situation can be flipped. 1911 guys can often brainwash folks into thinking the 1911 is the apha and omega of handguns, and everything is, and always will be inferior to it. I dont follow either philosophies. I personally prefer the Hi power platform, but I am still a sucker for DA/SA autos. But as long as I am not drinking Glock, or 1911 Kool-aid, I still feel like my own individual.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FNHipowerluv View Post
People can argue about the surpremacy of platforms all they want. Though the reality is, there is no surperior. Criticisms of the 1911 mean little. Some say it is picky with ammo. So what if it does not take certain ammo, carry it with ammo it likes. Another argument is they are higher maintainence to keep going, for a tight tolerance "race gun" this may be true. But a run of the mill "mil-spec" pistol is not going to face such issues, unless they are lemons, which is not the design's fault. In four wars, and the heavy training around them, these guns were able to last. They may have rattled a bunch afterward, but they worked. As for magazine capacity goes with proper training you can make quick changes. Same goes for the safety switch, it becomes second nature if you're trained. So in the end it is really no better or worse than competing platforms. When it comes to accuracy, reliability, and durability . What happens is Glock guys drink too much of their kool-aid, and start to find problems in the classic Browning design that are not really there. And unfortunately 1911 owners start to belive their bull crap. However the situation can be flipped. 1911 guys can often brainwash folks into thinking the 1911 is the apha and omega of handguns, and everything is, and always will be inferior to it. I dont follow either philosophies. I personally prefer the Hi power platform, but I am still a sucker for DA/SA autos. But as long as I am not drinking Glock, or 1911 Kool-aid, I still feel like my own individual.
The funny thing is, handguns are weak and often ineffective tools for fighting anyway. Debating the best battle rifle would make 100x more sense than arguing about pistols. Unfortunately however there are plenty of guys who like to puff out their chests and proclaim that their choice is the best bar none, be it choice of vehicle, choice of firearm, or even choice of lawn mower. Others just have to be an expert on everything. A long time ago I went hiking with a female friend who also happened to bring along one of her other love interests as well. Somehow during our hike the topic of discussion turned to guns, and when it became obvious that I knew a Hell of a lot more about them than he did he started getting visibly annoyed and began hotly debating everything from the best defensive stance to best choice of firearm. He absolutely hated the fact that I showed him up as a know-it-all who actually knew nothing yet pretended he did anyway. Unfortunately in the end I didn't get the girl, but neither did he which is good because he was an idiot.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1946 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.

Last edited by dsk; 02-15-2017 at 10:39 PM.
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