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  #1  
Old 05-24-2019, 11:56 PM
markm markm is offline
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A passable striker

While I have several striker guns from different manufactures I still don't like them, I would say the M&P performance center is the most bearable to me so far and I do kind of like the grips on the M&P 2.
One that I have is a Q5 Match and never really took to it, but I saw this one today with a steel frame and by golly it felt like a real gun, so much so I keep trying to thumb the hammer. The Walther triggers aren't great, feel like many other strikers but not terrible. And the haunch on the back of the grip that I don't usually like for heel support reasons is offset by this magwell. Even though the grips are plastic they have a really nice texture to them and I don't get the urge to wash my hands like I do with most plastic guns. Maybe someone will make G10's for them though.
The down side is holy cow the magazines are expensive, like STI expensive, but maybe I can find the plastic +2 pads and convert my other mags.
We'll see how it shoot this weekend and then who know...
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  #2  
Old 05-25-2019, 05:13 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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I have two walther's a PPQ45 and PPQ9. Both are excellent guns. I don't shoot the 9 much, but I shoot the 45 quite a bit. It is only 4.25" but it handles recoil with 230 HST with aplomb and shoots like a 5" gun. Recovers very quickly. You will come to appreciate the Walther signature grip (shape). The "bump" on the lower part on the back of the grip feels just perfect in hand and I think is what helps the gun come back from recoil so smartly...The trigger on the 45 is a thing to experience, the 9mm trigger is very good also, but the 45 trigger is even better. It is a very fast gun for a 45-poly.

Overall the walther PPQ's are also very accurate. Folks on the walther foroum reported 1.5" groups rested at 25 yards, and this has also been reported in a couple of gun magazines. 1.5-1.0" groups rested at 25Y with the plastic Q5.

My PPQ's could use better sight's but that is already taken care of on the Q5's. I also had to wrap my grips in rubber grip tape to create more friction with the hand's, but your's look a little better...I wouldn't mind if they had a thumb safety though which one could use when they wanted to.

That steel Q5 is going to be quite a shooter for you, expect the best and it will deliver it. I want one but just have too many gun's now already.

Yes the mags are slightly expensive, but they are a work of Italian art, best mag's out there in this space. Even Wilson Combat decided to use them as a starting point for the EDC-X9 project...I pay about $40 for mine and they are worth every penny. How much are they getting for the Steel-Q5 mags?
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Last edited by combat auto; 05-25-2019 at 05:37 AM.
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  #3  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:41 AM
Texas Guy Texas Guy is offline
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A passable striker

Waltzer PPQ/PPQ M2 sights are easily interchanged (I have trijicon HD’s ).

The trigger is the best out of the box striker trigger that exists. Little take up, smooth, crisp break and short reset.(mine pulls at 4.25lbs)

The grips you have two choices, slight swell in the palm, or flat swell. Back when I was looking to purchase my first handgun, I handled a Walther PPQ; I never forgot how good the gun felt in my hand. The ergos are fantastic, thus when I decided to go with a 9mm; the Walther was my only choice.

For the downsides, a magazine is $40. The recoil assembly is polymer(like Glock gen 3).

The aftermarket hasn’t quite caught up with the M2, holsters produced use the same mold as the PPQ(which has the integral mag release in the trigger guard) this requires Additional molding of the M2 to the holster with a heat gun. The edges of the picatinny has mold lines which can irritate the skin when carrying IWB(easily dressed up).

The PPQ/PPQM2 and Q5 are similar design(the Q5 match frame is steel/some options may not apply)


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  #4  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:41 AM
scubadad scubadad is offline
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Walther makes a great gun. Had a p99 in 9mm and just picked up a sw990l in 45 which is a walther/sw hybrid.

One poly/striker gun that surprised me is the ruger sr45. Trigger is right up there with the walther ppq and the dam thing runs like a swiss watch. It will not win an beauty contests but it works.
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  #5  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:02 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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M&P, Apex, 320, HK, Walther, Glock.... I can't tell squats worth of difference between any of them.
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  #6  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:14 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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I can tell the difference in triggers between different Glocks, let alone different makers....


Anyway, on the subject of steel frame Q5: there have been several reports already of them not running well and some had gone back to Walther. Something to with internal dimensions, I think, but I dont follow this too closely.
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  #7  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:34 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
I can tell the difference in triggers between different Glocks, let alone different makers..
Do you spend significant trigger time on them??? I own the ones I mentioned....but rarely shoot them.....which is why they all feel the same to me.
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  #8  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:47 AM
markm markm is offline
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I've only looked at the Walther site so far but the mags were $75 and they had basepads (metal, I think aftermarket) for $49, outch.
The guiderod is metal and I'd like a safety too but at 43oz I'm not thinking it's a carry gun, but it feels nice.
The trigger just has the signature striker creep, I think to finish cocking the striker. But it just feels a little squeeky/crunchy like the poly Q5, I polished the trigger bar and FP safety plunger because I noticed that it was smooth with the slide off and that helped

On a side, I bought a Xd 5.5 because I'd heard they had a fully cocked striker and thinking it would be different, not so much. But that and the 320 X-Vtac, both with trigger kits in them are spooky cause you can't tell when they will go off, there is no shelf, just start pulling and somewhere in there is goes bang.
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  #9  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:32 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Do you spend significant trigger time on them??? I own the ones I mentioned....but rarely shoot them.....which is why they all feel the same to me.
Yup. There are not the guns I shoot the most, but I've spend quite a bit of time shooting them and also tweaking triggers to my preferences so I am attuned to them.

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Originally Posted by markm View Post

The trigger just has the signature striker creep, I think to finish cocking the striker.
I think that all PPQs, including Q5, are fully cocked/tensioned strikers. Best of my knowledge, the only strikers on the market that aren't fully cocked are Glocks and SDs. Some folks feel that it adds to safety margins.
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  #10  
Old 05-25-2019, 12:32 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
M&P, Apex, 320, HK, Walther, Glock.... I can't tell squats worth of difference between any of them.
That's because almost all striker fire handguns have a passive safety that must be internally depressed to allow the striker to go forward. This is what causes the slight "sponginess" that we feel. The secret to shooting a striker fire is to not "milk" it like a 1911 trigger with a glass rod break, but merely press it back quickly. Don't try to "stage" it. Unfortunately, there is a cornucopia of aftermarket parts vendors claiming to turn your striker fire handgun's trigger into a 1911 for $$ and none do that, which is patently obvious to anyone with a smidgen of mechanical know how. If a person wants a 1911 trigger then buy a 1911.
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  #11  
Old 05-25-2019, 12:59 PM
yeti yeti is offline
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I was intrigued when Walther announced the steel frame Q5 Match and need to actually shoot one. The Q5 striker trigger can never be the equal of a well prepped 1911 or even a TSO, but I don't find them unpleasant at all. Kudos to Walther for taking a bit of a risk, sorry to hear they may have issues.
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  #12  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:03 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
That's because almost all striker fire handguns have a passive safety that must be internally depressed to allow the striker to go forward. This is what causes the slight "sponginess" that we feel. The secret to shooting a striker fire is to not "milk" it like a 1911 trigger with a glass rod break, but merely press it back quickly. Don't try to "stage" it. Unfortunately, there is a cornucopia of aftermarket parts vendors claiming to turn your striker fire handgun's trigger into a 1911 for $$ and none do that, which is patently obvious to anyone with a smidgen of mechanical know how. If a person wants a 1911 trigger then buy a 1911.
Interesting, in the PPQ-45 manual, they actually say not to stage the trigger. It is really a unique trigger, it has a long pre-travel (vs 1911) which is good for safety on this type of gun, but the break is super minimal which helps keep the gun on target of course (other things equal), and a quick reset...It is a very fast trigger in this way...They market it as a "Quick defense trigger".

I don't use my PPQ-9 much and don't know what is says in the manual about using it. But the 9 trigger feels much like any other quality striker trigger in its dynamic, just a little smother and crisper-break in then most in the poly space.
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:47 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
...it has a long pre-travel (vs 1911) which is good for safety on this type of gun, but the break is super minimal which helps keep the gun on target of course (other things equal), and a quick reset...It is a very fast trigger in this way...They market it as a "Quick defense trigger"...

"Good for safety"? Never rely on any sort of trigger "travel" as a form of safety. As well, as I have repeatedly pointed out on this forum when someone starts talking about trigger reset then you should walk away as they don't know what they are talking about. No human being can shoot to perfect reset. It's a myth of tsunami level BS proportions. Rob Leatham says he can't do it and he's perhaps the greatest combat shooter of the last thirty years.
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  #14  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:56 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
"Good for safety"? Never rely on any sort of trigger "travel" as a form of safety. As well, as I have repeatedly pointed out on this forum when someone starts talking about trigger reset then you should walk away as they don't know what they are talking about. No human being can shoot to perfect reset. It's a myth of tsunami level BS proportions. Rob Leatham says he can't do it and he's perhaps the greatest combat shooter of the last thirty years.
LOL, Oh chezze I knew I posted that at the risk of the speech police getting after me - LOL!

Think of it this way, on a gun with no other safety (besides that thing on the trigger), I prefer a longer take-up than a 1911 type gun. It adds value in that sense for me.

On the reset, you would have to define exactly what you and Rob L. mean by the word "perfect" in this context which you added to the discussion not me. (I said quick, you said perfect).
I am sure it will be an interesting if not very valuable in a practical sense discussion. I'll be back to hear you out. It is conceivable that quick and perfect can be the same thing but usually they are not. Let's see if you know what you are talking about.
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  #15  
Old 05-25-2019, 03:04 PM
markm markm is offline
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Originally Posted by yeti View Post
I was intrigued when Walther announced the steel frame Q5 Match and need to actually shoot one. The Q5 striker trigger can never be the equal of a well prepped 1911 or even a TSO, but I don't find them unpleasant at all. Kudos to Walther for taking a bit of a risk, sorry to hear they may have issues.
Me too, and I wouldn't say issues and I have learned something new, it's the plastic I hate more than the striker. Kinda wish M&P would make a metal frame as those seem to fit me best and point right naturally.

On the reset, the Q5 has a pretty short reset, well compared to say and HK, but would agree that too much is made of that. I only notice it when I switch guns in one session, most recently was shooting a Sig with SRT and switched to one without and wondered for a bit why it wasn't firing, thought I had a malfunction.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:52 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
"Good for safety"? Never rely on any sort of trigger "travel" as a form of safety. As well, as I have repeatedly pointed out on this forum when someone starts talking about trigger reset then you should walk away as they don't know what they are talking about. No human being can shoot to perfect reset. It's a myth of tsunami level BS proportions. Rob Leatham says he can't do it and he's perhaps the greatest combat shooter of the last thirty years.
1. Relying on pistol features vs having a pistol with features more forgiving to human error are different things. Length of trigger travel is a well recognized characteristic that adds to margins of safety. So much so that manufacturers invested in developing trigger modules with long DA-like trigger travels but light and consistent SA-like trigger breaks.

2. "Shooting to reset" vs benefit of a shorter reset distance are different things. First is a BS, second is a feature that allows for less finger movement regardless whether you run past reset point or fooling yourself otherwise. 8 mm of finger travel resets your Glock and lets your finger out past reset freely by 4 mm. 8 mm of finger travel may or may not reset your HK P30. Which one do you think is easier to shoot faster? You quote Robbie, I shot Robbie's striker pistol: how long do you think reset is on his XDM?

3. Robbie never been in combat. You meant competition shooter.
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  #17  
Old 05-25-2019, 05:15 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
1. Relying on pistol features vs having a pistol with features more forgiving to human error are different things. Length of trigger travel is a well recognized characteristic that adds to margins of safety. So much so that manufacturers invested in developing trigger modules with long DA-like trigger travels but light and consistent SA-like trigger breaks.

2. "Shooting to reset" vs benefit of a shorter reset distance are different things. First is a BS, second is a feature that allows for less finger movement regardless whether you run reset point or fooling yourself otherwise. 8 mm of finger travel resets your Glock and lets your finger out past reset freely by 4 mm. 8 mm of finger travel may or may not reset your HK P30. Which one do you think is easier to shoot faster? You quote Robbie, I shot Robbie's striker pistol: how long do you think reset is on his XDM?

3. Robbie never been in combat. You meant competition shooter.
Excellent post...And I'll add, Einstein was on the right track when he said space and time are the "same thing"/on a single continuum. . I bet he knew a bit about trigger design too.
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Old 05-26-2019, 02:25 AM
Boge Boge is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
LOL, Oh chezze I knew I posted that at the risk of the speech police getting after me - LOL!

Think of it this way, on a gun with no other safety (besides that thing on the trigger), I prefer a longer take-up than a 1911 type gun. It adds value in that sense for me.

On the reset, you would have to define exactly what you and Rob L. mean by the word "perfect" in this context which you added to the discussion not me. (I said quick, you said perfect).
I am sure it will be an interesting if not very valuable in a practical sense discussion. I'll be back to hear you out. It is conceivable that quick and perfect can be the same thing but usually they are not. Let's see if you know what you are talking about.
Yes, I know what I am talking about, but let Rob enlighten you.

Stop at 2:38 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8

Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
...

2. "Shooting to reset" vs benefit of a shorter reset distance are different things. First is a BS, second is a feature that allows for less finger movement regardless whether you run past reset point or fooling yourself otherwise. 8 mm of finger travel resets your Glock and lets your finger out past reset freely by 4 mm. 8 mm of finger travel may or may not reset your HK P30. Which one do you think is easier to shoot faster? You quote Robbie, I shot Robbie's striker pistol: how long do you think reset is on his XDM?

3. Robbie never been in combat. You meant competition shooter.
People trigger "slap" and don't recognize it for what it is. In a rapid fire sequence you will never notice a few mm of pull length.

Since when was this thread about being in combat?
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:32 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Yes, I know what I am talking about, but let Rob enlighten you.

Stop at 2:38 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8



People trigger "slap" and don't recognize it for what it is. In a rapid fire sequence you will never notice a few mm of pull length.

Since when was this thread about being in combat?
Yea but you either misread my post or you don't know the difference btwn fast and perfect. Who ever said "perfect" I sure the heck didn't.

On slapping, there are all sort's of degrees of that. Bill Wilson and some of his pro buddies essentially swing that finger all the way outside the trigger guard. Good for Bill (a fantastic history and body of work in the sport and industry, and he has a ton of business from me also), but that method doesn't work for me.

OK to look at what one's favorite guru does, but that doesn't mean it is the best thing for every shooter out there. There are ton's of guru's and they seldom have 100% agreement on technique.

On the vid you posted, pretty basic stuff (not saying there is anything wrong with it), I don't know any experience shooter who rides the reset OR stages the trigger to the break-point when engaging at speed "close shot's on big target's" <-His words...Further out and/or smaller target's staging (not the same thing as riding the reset) makes sense at times, skill level will determine what those times are for any given shooter. And staging is a "variable" - one applied different amounts as needed...In rare occasion's one may want to ride the reset when they want the utmost of stability on the gun, exact-consistency of finger-placement on the trigger, and the tightest possible group's. I used this technique when I shot 5R 2" 25Y group free hand-standing with my WC-TE-45 some years ago. I've posted the target every chance I got since then so I am sure you guy's don't want to see it again LOL. I also used this technique recently with my M4 with new WC-trigger and new Aimpoint red dot to shoot a 3" 9R group at 100-Yard's - not bad with a no magnification red dot, especially considering I could barley see what I was aiming at - LOL.

The important thing to remember is that trigger control is an "art" best practiced by using different techniques based on what one wants to accomplish on the accuracy-speed continuum...This is what work's best for me, I make no claim it work's best for anyone else.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:04 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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One of the ranges that I used to frequent used to have a special every November. Someone would come in from a gun manufacturer as well as some venders, they would have raffles and demonstrations. Rob Leatham was there one year giving tips along with his 1911 that had a 1 1/2lb pull. He said he liked to just "tap" the trigger. Now I guess this was good for competition but not so great for carry. I don't think he was worried about reset.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:07 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by SCfromNY View Post
One of the ranges that I used to frequent used to have a special every November. Someone would come in from a gun manufacturer as well as some venders, they would have raffles and demonstrations. Rob Leatham was there one year giving tips along with his 1911 that had a 1 1/2lb pull. He said he liked to just "tap" the trigger. Now I guess this was good for competition but not so great for carry. I don't think he was worried about reset.
Yep, with a 1.5lb trigger you don't have to worry much about staging the trigger either.
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:13 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by Boge View Post

People trigger "slap" and don't recognize it for what it is. In a rapid fire sequence you will never notice a few mm of pull length.
Slapping trigger is about how you press it, not how you reset it. People train and condition themselves how far to release their trigger finger in training. You'e right in that trying to release just exactly to reset point is idiocy, everyone runs by that point forward. But trigger that mandates that you release your finger by 10 mm is going to be harder to run faster than one that is OK with 6 mm of release, and also will be more prone to short stroking. There may also be some accuracy downsides when slapping at the high amplitude of finger travel, but that's secondary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post



Since when was this thread about being in combat?
Since you called Robbie the greatest combat shooter. I pointed out that you misspoke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Leatham says he can't do it and he's perhaps the greatest combat shooter of the last thirty years.
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  #23  
Old 05-26-2019, 12:06 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I got my Q5 as a compromise until I can get ($$$) a STI or similar 2011. Mine in polymer, I got it used, and at a decent price. The trigger is good, but nothing like a CZ or 2011. In my mind, if you are gonna spend the money on a steel Q5 then just get a STI or CZ and be done with it.

Mine has been flawless and has a superior factory trigger - better than any other striker pistol, but for a steel gun and that price point, I think there are better proven pistols. If you love the Q5 then why not get a steel one too? Good luck.
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:08 PM
Boge Boge is offline
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...Since you called Robbie the greatest combat shooter. I pointed out that you misspoke.
Freudian slip. My mistake.
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  #25  
Old 05-26-2019, 01:39 PM
markm markm is offline
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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I got my Q5 as a compromise until I can get ($$$) a STI or similar 2011. Mine in polymer, I got it used, and at a decent price. The trigger is good, but nothing like a CZ or 2011. In my mind, if you are gonna spend the money on a steel Q5 then just get a STI or CZ and be done with it.

Mine has been flawless and has a superior factory trigger - better than any other striker pistol, but for a steel gun and that price point, I think there are better proven pistols. If you love the Q5 then why not get a steel one too? Good luck.
I have plenty of STI's and was buying a few strikers, well out a boredom, 1400 bucks is a lot I will agree for one of these but less that half of most of my STI's.

I only got a sample of two, the polymer and the steel, but I would disagree with the trigger quality. Of the half dozen I have I would half to rate it at the lower end. Of course I can't remember which of my other ones I have put trigger kits in.
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