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  #51  
Old 03-26-2019, 02:10 PM
Ranger566 Ranger566 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
I have always thought that to straighten out the imbecile's in the NFL (and elsewhere) to stop disrespecting the flag, sentence them to 48 hours of watching battle footage of American Service people in WW2, Korea, VN, and the middle-east wars...Do you think they will then "get it" after that - what the flag stand's for?
Assuming that you could make them show up---they'd just sleep through it.

"You can lead the horse to water----but you can't make him drink".
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  #52  
Old 03-26-2019, 02:49 PM
CBR1107 CBR1107 is offline
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Ok, I didn't read all 6 pages of comments yet(will try to tonight), but early on someone called BS.

What parts are you calling BS? I'm a recruiter. What would you like to know?
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  #53  
Old 03-26-2019, 03:26 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Actually I am retired military and yes I agree.
You have my blessing sir. I only did 4 but we all carried the load.

Thanks for your service.
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  #54  
Old 03-26-2019, 04:01 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I am not gonna provide substantiation documentation

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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I don't buy this at face value; without some serious substantiation documentation, it just doesn't make sense.

The infantryman today is orders of magnitude better trained and skilled, just coming off Sand Hill, than they were in the 60s- they're better trained than I was 30 years ago as a fresh Ranger school graduate. The abilities to deliver precision fire at the individual level is exponentially greater. They're better educated, and have and can use far more complex and reliable tools to get their job done. They're proud of their profession.

One can "believe" whatever one wishes, but it doesn't make it fact. And a logical breakdown of the known realities and capabilities make this belief very questionable.
But it does make sense.

American Infantrymen of Vietnam killed more enemy Soldiers per capita than any other Soldier in American History... that is what I said, and I should have said, after the American Civil War. You imply above that you believe that because of the modern Infantryman’s lethality, that he has killed more enemy forces than the Vietnam Veteran. In 1995, North Vietnam chronicled 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters died in the conflict. Compare that to enemy kill counts in the Middle East. We know how many Americans were killed in both conflicts but if you look at how they died - you will find that the majority cause in Vietnam was direct fire (enemy Infantry) Compare that to GWOT (and beyond) and you will find that it is an entirely different kind of fighting. Different terrain and different enemy. Vietnam much closer engagements. Compare the number of American Infantry positions over-run in Vietnam to today’s fights. Even the engagements in Vietnam where larger... larger enemy concentration of forces. The Viet Cong did not fight unless they outnumbered Americans instead they chose to harass until the time was right. Higher casualties on both sides, but Americans would win most engagements. Vietcong and regulars offensives were larger and much more likely to stay fighting after contact.

When you talk about “complex and reliable tools” avaliable to the modern Infantryman... I am not sure if you mean to include Indirect fire and CAS / Drone Bombs? I wasn’t talking about that, just the perspective of the Infantrymen’s kills.

If you are saying that you believe that today’s Infantrymen are better and more capable then those in Vietnam... well yeah. We agree. Today’s American Infantrymen are the best ever. No one wants to fight them. The enemy prefers much softer targets.
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  #55  
Old 03-26-2019, 05:01 PM
earlwb earlwb is offline
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Well right now the military isn't desperate for recruits. So they can be more picky. But yes most young people are not physically fit enough to get through boot camp without remedial fitness training. But if there is a new war where they need to institute the draft again, you can bet they will take them in.
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  #56  
Old 03-26-2019, 05:46 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Just a footnote thought, perhaps mere wistful thinking:

I wonder how many Americans with minor physical impairments (but enough to cause legit disqualification; I don't know if the Vietnam era "X" classification still exists) or "excessive age" would be delighted to serve in some type of special reserve classification. Ready and willing to serve in roles they could fulfill, including in Harm's Way.

I'm primarily referring to people (probably mostly older) who do know how to handle firearms, who stand with pride for our National Anthem, who wish to defend our Country and Constitution, and have reasonable physical capabilities, but not quite passing current military standards

I suspect the military has no current use for such individuals as long as there are enough fully qualified, "right-age" individuals, but I had the above thought as I read through the first few posts.

I do understand that in any ground combat role, and many other roles, servicepersons need to rely on the physical capabilities of servicepersons around them. So that is a roadblock to the above wistful thinking.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 03-26-2019 at 08:07 PM.
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  #57  
Old 03-26-2019, 07:38 PM
SFC Rick SFC Rick is offline
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I can tell you plenty of stories, I was a Master Recruiter for the TXARNG for 7 years! Best job I ever had!
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  #58  
Old 03-26-2019, 07:54 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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recruits

Most of the youths don't even know what sex they are! or their mother wont tell them!
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  #59  
Old 03-26-2019, 09:30 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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This is kind of an interesting side note here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Just a footnote thought, perhaps mere wistful thinking:

I wonder how many Americans with minor physical impairments (but enough to cause legit disqualification; I don't know if the Vietnam era "X" classification still exists) or "excessive age" would be delighted to serve in some type of special reserve classification. Ready and willing to serve in roles they could fulfill, including in Harm's Way.

I'm primarily referring to people (probably mostly older) who do know how to handle firearms, who stand with pride for our National Anthem, who wish to defend our Country and Constitution, and have reasonable physical capabilities, but not quite passing current military standards

I suspect the military has no current use for such individuals as long as there are enough fully qualified, "right-age" individuals, but I had the above thought as I read through the first few posts.

I do understand that in any ground combat role, and many other roles, servicepersons need to rely on the physical capabilities of servicepersons around them. So that is a roadblock to the above wistful thinking.
Maybe I am just fooling myself. But I encounter people half my age, that make the appearance to me. Of generally having not much in the way of stamina or ability to defend themselves. Situational awareness is non existent. And forget about physical fitness altogether. Again maybe I am just pumping myself up. But the softness that I see appears to be, with exceptions of course. To be very pervasive.
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  #60  
Old 03-26-2019, 09:38 PM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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Well yeah, there are lots of clueless, out of shape civilians walking around today. But regardless, our guys in the Military today are in better physical condition than any group of soldiers before.

Why is it that every older generation thinks that they were the first to truly understand how things are and that every other generation, older and younger, weren't so enlightened.
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  #61  
Old 03-26-2019, 10:31 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I think that by definiton older people have more experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
Well yeah, there are lots of clueless, out of shape civilians walking around today. But regardless, our guys in the Military today are in better physical condition than any group of soldiers before.

Why is it that every older generation thinks that they were the first to truly understand how things are and that every other generation, older and younger, weren't so enlightened.
A natural progression of this would appear to be that they are somehow smarter. I think that this is likely true in many cases. However I would not discount the fact that some people are never going to get it. As in some people will be stupid throughout the duration of their lives. Additionally that there are some pretty savvy young individuals that get it very early on.

Anytime that you are dealing with people, absolutes tend to be fairly nebulous. Just sayin.
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  #62  
Old 03-26-2019, 10:48 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Yep. We have fools, geniuses, & everything in between. That's how it's always been.

Many people help Mankind continue to exist, but not many move it forward.

I don't think I am smarter than an African Bushmen just because I own an iphone.

I have no clue what's going on inside it. So, am I just helping Mankind exist with no movement forward? Yep. I've invented very little & nothing of consequence. No great art or beneficial accomplishments.

I'm not going to look down on present or past generations. They all have their losers & heroes.

Last edited by magazineman; 03-26-2019 at 10:52 PM.
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  #63  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:00 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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I must be living in a bubble as I see children of my co-workers, bright, athletic, nice kids enlist, some from high school, some after a couple of years of college. I also provide consultative services to a personnel of a large AFB; doesn't seem like there is a shortage of good kids in active duty around here.
Maybe I am wrong, or maybe some of you need a reality check re current generation of American kids. You know, iPhones don't steal souls, they just allow for better communications.
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  #64  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:04 PM
Benchrest1 Benchrest1 is offline
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I have to say that I see just as many very fat old people. It isn't just the young that are over weight.
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  #65  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:33 PM
FightinTXAggie FightinTXAggie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
I must be living in a bubble as I see children of my co-workers, bright, athletic, nice kids enlist, some from high school, some after a couple of years of college. I also provide consultative services to a personnel of a large AFB; doesn't seem like there is a shortage of good kids in active duty around here.
Maybe I am wrong, or maybe some of you need a reality check re current generation of American kids. You know, iPhones don't steal souls, they just allow for better communications.
Well it would stand to reason that those are the ones that qualify, not in the 71% that (according to the article) don’t.
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  #66  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:53 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Yeah, I understand. But if we only had 29% of youth that qualified, of which only a fraction would enlist, we would expect severe active duty personnel shortages, wouldn't we?
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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  #67  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:56 PM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Yeah, I understand. But if we only had 29% of youth that qualified, of which only a fraction would enlist, we would expect severe active duty personnel shortages, wouldn't we?

So far in times when there are shortages the services typically relax some of their qualifications. They typically do all they can to meet whatever needs they have. Whever they need to drawdown a bit they have the luxury of tightening their standards. It happens all of the time.

Last edited by Dddrees; 03-27-2019 at 12:01 AM.
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  #68  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:59 PM
FightinTXAggie FightinTXAggie is offline
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I think that was mentioned in the article. As in, we might soon be facing shortages.

But I neither wrote nor did the original research for the article. I just read it, found it interesting, and shared it.


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  #69  
Old 03-27-2019, 04:11 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by Ranger566 View Post
Assuming that you could make them show up---they'd just sleep through it.

"You can lead the horse to water----but you can't make him drink".
You got that right Ranger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsvette View Post
Well yeah, there are lots of clueless, out of shape civilians walking around today. But regardless, our guys in the Military today are in better physical condition than any group of soldiers before.

Why is it that every older generation thinks that they were the first to truly understand how things are and that every other generation, older and younger, weren't so enlightened.
Yes, My Friend, it does sound like a bunch of old farts sitting around the common room in the Nursing Home...Well, stereotypes are a great convince to administer "judgement". There has been lots of it going on in a variety of threads lately, especially that NZ thread. Must be a Solar flare or something because it seems to be especially strong right now :-).
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  #70  
Old 03-27-2019, 04:30 AM
4evrnbljns 4evrnbljns is offline
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Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
Running laps around Ft. Jackson in July can FIX obesity...
Enlisted in 1973, basic training at Fort Jackson, had a contract for choice first Duty station and a monetary award for finishing in the top percentage.Running laps during red bulb ,I passed out, when I came to with the smelling salts under my nose the D I was shoving a clipboard in my face saying "sign this" .I was not aware of what I was doing let alone what I was signing but the document I signed voided my enlistment contract, and I finished second highest score out of basic training I would have gotten my bonus and a stripe. I did get the stripe and I had enlisted on a delayed entry program when I was 17 and a half years old so I was in e2 entering basic. With the stripe out of basic to PFC I entered AIT as the highest ranking private I was immediately made squad leader so I learned leadership at an early age. Anyway your comment about the heat at Fort Jackson in July brought back that memory.

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  #71  
Old 03-27-2019, 07:34 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Volkssturm

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Just a footnote thought, perhaps mere wistful thinking:

I wonder how many Americans with minor physical impairments (but enough to cause legit disqualification; I don't know if the Vietnam era "X" classification still exists) or "excessive age" would be delighted to serve in some type of special reserve classification. Ready and willing to serve in roles they could fulfill, including in Harm's Way.

I'm primarily referring to people (probably mostly older) who do know how to handle firearms, who stand with pride for our National Anthem, who wish to defend our Country and Constitution, and have reasonable physical capabilities, but not quite passing current military standards

I suspect the military has no current use for such individuals as long as there are enough fully qualified, "right-age" individuals, but I had the above thought as I read through the first few posts.

I do understand that in any ground combat role, and many other roles, servicepersons need to rely on the physical capabilities of servicepersons around them. So that is a roadblock to the above wistful thinking.
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  #72  
Old 03-27-2019, 07:41 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
I can guarantee you that you don't want anything like a draft in the modern military. The military spent a lot of time trying to whip people into shape that didn't want to be in the military during the draft.

Unless you've had charge of individuals who were drafted or enlisted because of the draft I wouldn't be too quick to recommend it.

Just about anyone who has had that experience will tell you the same thing. Most 18 yo's these days wouldn't make it.
No kidding. Like I said earlier, I have several friends and even more cousins who went into the military. It's a whole new ball game now. No hitting recruits. Now belittling them....no yelling? Give me a break.
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  #73  
Old 03-27-2019, 08:21 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Pvt. Leonard 'Gomer Pyle' Lawrence

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Originally Posted by jamiesaun View Post
No hitting recruits. Now belittling them....no yelling? Give me a break.
I have a friend who is an Army CPT and not too long ago he completed his Basic Training Company Command. I asked him about the “Stress Card” and some of the Snowflake Stuff you hear about. He told me that they don’t have “stress cards”, they do yell at the recruits (as a group). No more nicknames... “Gomer Pyle”.

He told me that they had make a special effort to get the old steel trash cans because they still woke trainees up by yelling and kicking the trash can between the bunks.

I was very interested in the fitness of the trainees, and he told me that they ran the guys very hard. They do a lot of PT. He told me, that when a guy graduated his Army Basic it was his reputation. He did not care how many Soldiers he produced / no quotas / no pressure from his Commander to let slide quality. He took lots of pride that his graduating trainees had the high PT and Marksmanship Scores in his Battalion.

I don’t think the Army has been Hitting guys in Basic Training for a long time. At least not where their are witnesses.
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  #74  
Old 03-27-2019, 08:38 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I have a friend who is an Army CPT and not too long ago he completed his Basic Training Company Command. I asked him about the “Stress Card” and some of the Snowflake Stuff you hear about. He told me that they don’t have “stress cards”, they do yell at the recruits (as a group). No more nicknames... “Gomer Pyle”.



He told me that they had make a special effort to get the old steel trash cans because they still woke trainees up by yelling and kicking the trash can between the bunks.



I was very interested in the fitness of the trainees, and he told me that they ran the guys very hard. They do a lot of PT. He told me, that when a guy graduated his Army Basic it was his reputation. He did not care how many Soldiers he produced / no quotas / no pressure from his Commander to let slide quality. He took lots of pride that his graduating trainees had the high PT and Marksmanship Scores in his Battalion.



I don’t think the Army has been Hitting guys in Basic Training for a long time. At least not where their are witnesses.
How recently did your friend graduate?

Agreed. That was pretty much what my friends told me about the Marines. They still yell, just not directly in their face anymore. And don't single people out. This would have been about 10 + years ago. I assume it's gotten worse, but I may be wrong about that, it's happened before...once


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  #75  
Old 03-27-2019, 08:51 AM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Originally Posted by jamiesaun View Post
How recently did your friend graduate?

Agreed. That was pretty much what my friends told me about the Marines. They still yell, just not directly in their face anymore. And don't single people out. This would have been about 10 + years ago. I assume it's gotten worse, but I may be wrong about that, it's happened before...once


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He was the Company Commander of the Basic Training unit. I have know him for years, he is an Action Shooter and we often shoot together. We had a dinner party and he was invited because he was on leave and nearby. Of course I tried to spend every moment with him... I asked him tons of questions about his Command. I don’t know how many rotations he put through... I am sure he told me, but I forget, but he did the job for 18 months. This was very recent.

He is a Soldier we all can be proud of.

Last edited by HarryO45; 03-27-2019 at 09:24 AM.
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