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  #1  
Old 03-25-2019, 01:38 PM
FightinTXAggie FightinTXAggie is offline
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71% of today's youth (ages 17-24) ineligible for military service...

....due to obesity, lack of education/intelligence, and criminal backgrounds.

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/w...uitment-crisis

Interesting article from one year ago. The breakdown on physical fitness, etc., comes about 2/3 down the page.

Makes one wonder who will man the guns, so to speak, in another 20 years.
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  #2  
Old 03-25-2019, 02:01 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Meanwhile in China...

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Old 03-25-2019, 02:13 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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You forgot about all of them.

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Originally Posted by FightinTXAggie View Post
....due to obesity, lack of education/intelligence, and criminal backgrounds.

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/w...uitment-crisis

Interesting article from one year ago. The breakdown on physical fitness, etc., comes about 2/3 down the page.

Makes one wonder who will man the guns, so to speak, in another 20 years.
With extensive criminal records. I really can not see why we do not have mandatory service like the Israelis. So much benefit to the nation and to these young men and women could be achieved by this. But then again I guess that all of the rich people could not bear to have their precious children exposed to any kind of hard work or discipline.
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:14 PM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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Running laps around Ft. Jackson in July can FIX obesity...
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:52 PM
wildphil wildphil is offline
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Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
Running laps around Ft. Jackson in July can FIX obesity...
That is what I was thinking. If bodies were needed to fill the ranks of our military. I am sure enough folks could be whipped into shape. And those with criminal records could have their attitudes adjusted enough to do just fine in the military.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:03 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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I call BS.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:05 PM
jtq jtq is online now
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Originally Posted by 7.62Kolectr View Post
Meanwhile in China...

https://youtu.be/3FDL4ZYEfcw
They're making music video's?
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:08 PM
jtq jtq is online now
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Let me add, we have 17 - 24 year olds all over the country that can march in formation.

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Old 03-25-2019, 03:13 PM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
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This is firearms related how?

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  #10  
Old 03-25-2019, 03:33 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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If it comes to it... we won’t have a choice.

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Originally Posted by wildphil View Post
That is what I was thinking. If bodies were needed to fill the ranks of our military. I am sure enough folks could be whipped into shape. And those with criminal records could have their attitudes adjusted enough to do just fine in the military.
I hope so, I am a big fan of the All Volunteer Military. I am definitely not opposed to Registration for the Draft, but we haven’t really needed conscription in a long time...but it is good to know, we got them registered - if we do need to build a real Army. We have fought America’s longest war, with all volunteers. I am not sure we need to include females in the draft? I think it would be interesting to see where all the feminists, social warriors and even daddy’s would fall on the registration of “females in the draft” issue.

Interesting fact about the Draft. Look it up... since and including WWII, the United States has proportionally used fewer and fewer draftees to fight our wars. Yea, that includes Vietnam.

I can testify that today’s Soldiers are as fit as ever. My guess is that we have more athletes in the military than ever before, at least in the Combat Arms branches of our military. Usually a Marine or Combat Arms Soldier / Sailor and Airman has specifically asked for that duty... not many snowflakes on the Tip of the Spear. Lots of strong Warriors.

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Old 03-25-2019, 03:41 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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In the OP.

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Originally Posted by Kodadek View Post
This is firearms related how?

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It was in the first post

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Originally Posted by FightinTXAggie View Post
Makes one wonder who will man the guns
It would be nice to have a Military sub forum... especially since the 1911 was America’s oldest serving military sidearm. We have an LEO sub forum we even have a Disaster subforum... check it out, they are currently talking about Aladan’s Lamp.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:49 PM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FightinTXAggie View Post
....due to obesity, lack of education/intelligence, and criminal backgrounds.

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/w...uitment-crisis

Interesting article from one year ago. The breakdown on physical fitness, etc., comes about 2/3 down the page.

Makes one wonder who will man the guns, so to speak, in another 20 years.
I believe it. I got a buddy who was in the Marines. Love be him to death, but his score on the asvap was so low, he basically couldn't do anything but move boxes around. I'm shocked they even took him. Seriously it was like, "okay, sign your name here. You can do that right? If you can sign your name and we'll let you do supply."

Got another buddy who scored off the charts that ended up as a mechanic...go figure.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:53 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I really can not see why we do not have mandatory service like the Israelis. So much benefit to the nation and to these young men and women could be achieved by this. But then again I guess that all of the rich people could not bear to have their precious children exposed to any kind of hard work or discipline.
Conscription only works well in a society that has some sense of national identity and common purpose, as well as cultural values. It worked in WWII... not so well during the Vietnam era.

To do so in 21st Century America would be destructive to military readiness and discipline. It would be prohibitively expensive to pay and train conscripts doing 2-4 years, and even more expensive to seperate those unwilling to assimilate to military life.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:24 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I am not so sure that I would agree with this.

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To do so in 21st Century America would be destructive to military readiness and discipline. It would be prohibitively expensive to pay and train conscripts doing 2-4 years, and even more expensive to seperate those unwilling to assimilate to military life.
I think that if some proper oversight was in place. That this could be a big plus for the nation. I am not necessarily talking about turning every eighteen year old conscript into something that resembles a Seal, Ranger, paratrooper, you name it. But maybe just somebody that learns how to live within a structured, and disciplined environment. Perhaps persons that could patrol streets at night in teams much as the old Guardian Angels used to do. To deter crime or delinquency. Maybe just taking old folks to church on Sunday and shepherding them in this endeavor to be in place should the would be martyr shows up. Or maybe even just pick up trash in the city park.

I think that you could do this without tremendous expense. And with minimal supervision as well. Basic PT never did any otherwise healthy individual harm as far as I know. But as stated earlier. We will never see it. It makes too much sense. And the rich people will not allow their kids to be subjected to it.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:46 PM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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Originally Posted by wildphil View Post
And those with criminal records could have their attitudes adjusted enough to do just fine in the military.

How many teen-aged miscreants back in the day, were given the choice by the judge of, "Jail, or military?" That seemed to work out fine.
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  #16  
Old 03-25-2019, 10:04 PM
FightinTXAggie FightinTXAggie is offline
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HarryO45 and Wccountryboy make great arguments for an all-volunteer, fit, educated, professional (and American cultural/nationalistic) military. Higher standards and better training seem to continue to raise the quality of our military personnel.

USMMguy and WarWagon..good counterpoints as to the benefits of conscription/discipline/structure, and guidance. I would agree based on principal, personal values, and historical precedence. But—- I think that worked well back in the day when, as WC noted, we had a populace with national identity, common purpose, and structural values. Things we have been missing, by and large, for a generation or two.

Nowadays I feel that, unfortunately, with conscription, we would be training and inciting more anti-American activity (mostly of the muslim and socialist/leftist variety) that we have recently seen of the military-trained variety (several cases come to mind, i.e., Hassan), due to many people now living (even born & raised) in America that don’t identify or act like Americans. They seem to get more and more bitter and vindictive as time moves on.

Good discussion.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:18 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Well, the European perception is is that Americans, in general, are fat & stupid. This Pentagon report seems to support that.

But when I'm in Europe I surprise them, by showing that some of us are SKINNY.... .......... and only moderately stupid.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:47 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
With extensive criminal records. I really can not see why we do not have mandatory service like the Israelis. So much benefit to the nation and to these young men and women could be achieved by this. But then again I guess that all of the rich people could not bear to have their precious children exposed to any kind of hard work or discipline.
I can guarantee you that you don't want anything like a draft in the modern military. The military spent a lot of time trying to whip people into shape that didn't want to be in the military during the draft.

Unless you've had charge of individuals who were drafted or enlisted because of the draft I wouldn't be too quick to recommend it.

Just about anyone who has had that experience will tell you the same thing. Most 18 yo's these days wouldn't make it.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:02 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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As I previously stated.

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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
I can guarantee you that you don't want anything like a draft in the modern military. The military spent a lot of time trying to whip people into shape that didn't want to be in the military during the draft.

Unless you've had charge of individuals who were drafted or enlisted because of the draft I wouldn't be too quick to recommend it.

Just about anyone who has had that experience will tell you the same thing. Most 18 yo's these days wouldn't make it.
I do not necessarily look to a draft insofar as producing soldiers as the end goal. What I would like to see is conscription more dedicated towards just producing a young population of civilians more inclined towards leading a more disciplined life with a focus on socially responsible behavior. Additionally I would submit that no allowance for failure to "make it" be acceptable.

We have already in place a society very similar to the Greek state of Sparta. If this is indeed our bent then we should stay true to this. To do otherwise is folly in the extreme insofar as our long term survival is concerned.

Perhaps a counter balance to these ridiculous indoctrination programs that young children are faced with by current public education focused towards very young children.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:50 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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This is so funny or sorry I can no longer tell which.

So what some of you would wish is to task the military with fixing all of our social problems. Not only do you wish the military to fight our wars you would also like the military to fix what all those failed parents have not taken care of as well. Sorry it just doesn't work that way.

I had enough responsibility making sure that me and my men were prepared for war. I don't need the added responsibility of fixing something others didn’t have the time nor desire to do in the first place.

Frankly I am glad that was not the case when I was a Sergeant and that we had the voluntary service. At least then when someone joined they had a reason or a desire to serve. God knows even then some of those didn't really belong or want to be there. Yes even some of those received Bad Conduct Discharges. If they can’t follow instructions I have no time to play games. I didn’t run a nursery school. Heck, I remember one college boy telling me he was much smarter than I and he didn't have to do what I told him because he was going to college after he got out. It was really so sad for him when I told him I could recommend punishment under the UCVMJ and eventually process him out on a Bad Conduct Discharge and that would prevent him from getting that college money. Boy he started to listen more intently and do what he was told then. Now you see this is a motivator right there. Thing is that just doesn't work with everybody. There are just some blockheads that want to think they know better or have better things to do. I always got the feeling those were kids that just weren't raised right. Yep, even back then there were kids that weren't raised right. Thing is I had a full time job. The mission was to prepare my soldiers for war. This takes plenty of time and I certainly don’t need additional obstacles getting in my way. Either you did what you were told or you faced the consequences. Soldiers placed in my care were held accountable for their actions.

Put them in your prisons but don’t task me with being their parent because you failed your child. I may have to fight your wars but I shouldn't have to be your babysitter too.


By the way my wife is a teacher and she can't possibly fix all those failed parents either. Johnny just seems to get his way at home no matter how many times she tells her parents that's not what's best for Johnny.

Last edited by Dddrees; 03-26-2019 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:42 AM
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+1911 on USMC Guy's suggestion, 2 years mandatory service...There is a lot of benefit to the "kid" (M-service (4 years) worked wonder's for me in my life for all the many years since), and also benefits to the country. For one, it will help re-indoctrinate these kids to notions like service to the country, the constitution, pride in the country, responsibility, expose to firearms (so they respect and don't fear/equate then to scary-things), etc., etc. They need to have some "skin" in the game, and for most it will likely change the perception of many things...Yes, there will be flunkies, there always has been, who drop out, but with some guidance from the Drill Sargent, and peer-pressure of the other in their group, most will rise to the occasion...Highly unlikely it will ever happen though.
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:06 AM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:07 AM
Cappi Cappi is offline
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Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I do not necessarily look to a draft insofar as producing soldiers as the end goal. What I would like to see is conscription more dedicated towards just producing a young population of civilians more inclined towards leading a more disciplined life with a focus on socially responsible behavior. Additionally I would submit that no allowance for failure to "make it" be acceptable.

We have already in place a society very similar to the Greek state of Sparta. If this is indeed our bent then we should stay true to this. To do otherwise is folly in the extreme insofar as our long term survival is concerned.

Perhaps a counter balance to these ridiculous indoctrination programs that young children are faced with by current public education focused towards very young children.
with you
been thinking the same thing for years
Give them options of a civil side or mil side (if they can qualify for mil standards)

but of course it's pipe dream .
Just look at the negative reaction here

it's not just the young folk that have lost the "can do" spirit that made America great once

"can't do it, too hard, no one cares" blah blah blah.....

.................................................. ........................................









Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
It worked in WWII... not so well during the Vietnam era.

.
and you're basing that on what?

you unknowingly and unintended, just slapped 650,000+ that didn't run off to Canada or have the mean$ to hide out in college
Over 17,000 of them gave all


Surely you're not basing performance suppositions on two very differently fought wars?
I'd also suggest, no American warrior in history saw the sustained hardcore combat Ops of 67, 68 and '69 .
While not letting the Mil take the war to where it needed to go to be most effective

Never been a soldier , but sure it would be quite demoralizing to those in combat

so you'll have to help me with specifics of why/how the draftee of 66 to 70 was so different from the ones of 41-45

did more of them end up in jail?
More dishonorable discharges?
More AWOL or desertion ?


Maybe I'm being over sensitive, but your comment hit me wrong, my good friend

Born in '57 and being aware, it's a war I identify with.
Maybe half of the "older kids" I grew up with in my neighborhood went to 'Nam
and maybe half of them were drafted in the late '60s

Our leadership f'd them all
Just sensitive about any implication they "weren't as good"






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Old 03-26-2019, 06:26 AM
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Good point Cappi, it wasn't the Service people who failed in V.N. it was the politician's and too many of the American people...The service people served with the highest honor, and the record shows they prevailed in every major battle...But the politician's wouldn't let them win the war, and eventually that did take a toll on moral after so many years of stalemate.

Some time in the early 1990, my Dad when he was still alive, a WW2 Veteran asked me why the Vietnam Vets are still winning about the Vietnam war as compared to how the WW2 vets handled post war transition...My answer was simple but poignant: "Dad, because when you came home from WW2 you were all considered war hero's of the noble war. When the Vietnam vet's came home they were spit on at the airport and called "baby-killer's." He realizing this was the perfect metaphor btwn the two very different situation. But still, I was shocked, because men of his ilk seldom admitted they were wrong, or show much emotion, but he looked down as to reflect for a moment, and with watery eye's, shook his head up and down slowly twice and said: "You are right, yes, you are right"...I'll never forget that moment.
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:43 AM
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IF the bad guys bombed, invaded or otherwise attacked the borders of the United States next week or next month AND the draft were resumed. The majority of the draftees would not show up for roll call. There would be a year long or more debate/lawsuit over whether the women had to also serve, what age had to go, who got exemptions and then there are those who just MUST protest something. The broadcast and social media would add endless controversy over whether the attack was true, justified or actually had occurred. The bad guys would be battling our military who’s rules included OSHA, EPA and an endless list of other Federal Regulations. Us old guys would have to suit up and join the existing troops with whatever NRA folks could get off work that day, didn’t have kid’s soccer, a conference call or a dental appointment. Those left would be sitting around talking about us. Yep, I can say all this ‘cause I got my 30 and started out as a Draftee.
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