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  #1  
Old 05-22-2020, 01:37 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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POTUS: Houses of Worship Essential

Love it, and I would love to see the Lefty "Die on this Hill" if they are stupid enough to stay on top of it.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-order...refuse-1506065
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  #2  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:15 PM
Get Out Get Out is offline
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IMOA, we'll see in about 5 to 14 days when the incubation period is completed!

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6920e2.htm
https://www.healthline.com/health/co...ubation-period
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  #3  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:19 PM
wildphil wildphil is online now
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Trump is standing up for what is right once again. It has been crazy the bars are allowed to have 50 people inside at one time. But churches could only have 10.
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  #4  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:57 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by wildphil View Post
Trump is standing up for what is right once again. It has been crazy the bars are allowed to have 50 people inside at one time. But churches could only have 10.
EXACTLY!

He is doing it because it is the right thing to do....It also happens to be a winning position for him to take...The longer any Lefty Governor resists this order, the more POTUS can make of what he is doing vs the Left.

Eventually, he will have to order the Justice Dept to file for an Injunction...This is a suite POTUS will not loose, not with abortion clinics and liquor stores open.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:10 PM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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IMOA, we'll see in about 5 to 14 days when the incubation period is completed!

Know anybody who has it? I don't.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:11 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Freedom to decide should be a high priority. This doesn't necessarily mean re-opening of every church; it is more about the right to do so. Personally, I'm on the side of caution; but I'm not on the side of government mandates lasting weeks on end. The latter seems far adrift from the Constitution.

Government shutdown mandates should be sparsely used. Not saying never; only saying sparsely; and, even then, only for short time periods. If people continue to feel that a shutdown is needed, they can so choose for themselves ... voluntarily.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:16 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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So they're essential on 21 May, but were non-essential on 15 MAR......?

Bold move- after a Federal judge already struck down one Governors order, and over 2 months of widespread infringement....
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  #8  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:30 PM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Freedom to decide should be a high priority. This doesn't necessarily mean re-opening of every church; it is more about the right to do so. Personally, I'm on the side of caution; but I'm not in the side of government mandates lasting weeks on end. The latter seems far adrift from the Constitution.

Government mandates should be sparsely used. Not saying never; only saying sparsely and even then only for short time periods.
Personally, being on Chemo, I'd love to see society wear masks and gloves and keep 6' away from me forever ;-)...But I know it isn't going to happen once this scare is over.

More importantly, although I accepted the initial period of quarantine as reasonable until the hospital entries peaked, I am totally against it now. Why, because to me it is no longer reasonable. People need to get their jobs back, feed their kids, have a life.

The vast majority of deaths are in the risk group's. It is us in the risk groups who are responsible to keep ourselves safe, I wouldn't possibly want someone to be out of work over this.

As far as the "places of prayer", they will have to follow the SD rules for now. But it is a Constitutional right religion. For many people that means praying with others...As for me, although I am very Christian, I do my praying at home, several times a day. But that is my choice based on my medical situation...But those who want to pray with others and be guided by a "live" spiritual leader should be allowed to.

Enough is enough!

I know you don't disagree My Friend, I'm just expressing myself because I feel as strong about 1A/Freedom of Religions as 2A and all the other rights we have.
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  #9  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:39 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Personally, being on Chemo, I'd love to see society wear masks and gloves and keep 6' away from me forever ;-)...But I know it isn't going to happen once this scare is over.

More importantly, although I accepted the initial period of quarantine as reasonable until the hospital entries peaked, I am totally against it now. Why, because to me it is no longer reasonable. People need to get their jobs back, feed their kids, have a life.

The vast majority of deaths are in the risk group's. It is us in the risk groups who are responsible to keep ourselves safe, I wouldn't possibly want someone to be out of work over this.

As far as the "places of prayer", they will have to follow the SD rules for now. But it is a Constitutional right religion. For many people that means praying with others...As for me, although I am very Christian, I do my praying at home, several times a day. But that is my choice based on my medical situation...But those who want to pray with others and be guided by a "live" spiritual leader should be allowed to.

Enough is enough!

I know you don't disagree My Friend, I'm just expressing myself because I feel as strong about 1A/Freedom of Religions as 2A and all the other rights we have.
+1911
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:30 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Freedom to decide should be a high priority. This doesn't necessarily mean re-opening of every church; it is more about the right to do so. Personally, I'm on the side of caution; but I'm not on the side of government mandates lasting weeks on end. The latter seems far adrift from the Constitution.

Government shutdown mandates should be sparsely used. Not saying never; only saying sparsely; and, even then, only for short time periods. If people continue to feel that a shutdown is needed, they can so choose for themselves ... voluntarily.
I would suggest that the government mandating shutdowns of churches- even for a nanosecond- is "far adrift from the Constitution ". As a Federal judge stated very clearly in his injunction, 'there is no pandemic exception to the Constitution'.

Since you seem to support such mandates for a "short" period of time, what exactly is that hard ceiling- how many days, weeks, months, years....? As this is a time based standard, the specific of the circumstance, situation, event are irrelevant....

For good or ill, it is purely the prerogative of churches and their governing bodies to determine how to manage or mitigate risk, and the individual members to make their own choices as to what is appropriate for their specific circumstances.
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:00 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
The vast majority of deaths are in the risk group's. It is us in the risk groups who are responsible to keep ourselves safe, I wouldn't possibly want someone to be out of work over this.

As far as the "places of prayer", they will have to follow the SD rules for now. But it is a Constitutional right religion. For many people that means praying with others...As for me, although I am very Christian, I do my praying at home, several times a day. But that is my choice based on my medical situation...But those who want to pray with others and be guided by a "live" spiritual leader should be allowed to.
Your first statement above is spot on. Society does not owe you a risk free environment. It is up to you to understand and manage your risk. To your credit, you've been quite consistent in this position since this event began.

As to the second point, I would suggest that there is far more to exercising Christian faith than just prayer. Much depends upon what denominational doctrine and traditions you subscribe to. Based on my beliefs and understanding of Scripture, there are certain things that believers are commanded to do: to follow Christ's example of Baptism, to partake of the Lord's Supper often, and to gather together regularly, to teach and admonish one another, to worship and praise as a body of believers....
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
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  #12  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:48 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
......

Since you seem to support such mandates for a "short" period of time.....
Not so WCB.

Instead, I find myself in an undecided state. E.g., I've heard compelling arguments on both sides of this debate...compelling enough so that I respect both and see merit in both. I suppose I have the defect of perceiving competing viewpoints as possibly both having reasonability.

But for a government to continue to state "there's an emergency and thus citizens cannot...", I feel on firm ground in saying that such an argument becomes progressively weaker with each passing day. This is not the same as supporting any of the mandatory shutdowns we've seen. Instead, it's only saying that I can see a fair difference of opinion among intelligent people on Day One. But I don't see plausible reasonableness in continuing to cite an "emergency" as a basis for denying Constitutional freedoms.

By definition, an emergency is not ongoing. Although not part of this immediate discussion, I think it's also a fair question to ask whether a virus spread is an emergency. It's certainly a concern to me and many others; but whether it is an "emergency" is a different question...and again, I suspect that reasonable people can have different opinions.
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  #13  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:58 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Not so WCB.

Instead, I find myself in an undecided state. E.g., I've heard compelling arguments on both sides of this debate...compelling enough so that I respect both and see merit in both. I suppose I have the defect of perceiving competing viewpoints as possibly both having reasonability.

But for a government to continue to state "there's an emergency and thus citizens cannot...", I feel on firm ground in saying that such an argument becomes progressively weaker with each passing day. This is not the same as supporting any of the mandatory shutdowns we've seen. Instead, it's only saying that I can see a fair difference of opinion among intelligent people on Day One. But I don't see plausible reasonableness in continuing to cite an "emergency" as a basis for prohibiting Constitutional freedoms.

By definition, an emergency is not ongoing.
Fair enough.... I misunderstood the post I cited.

FWIW, looking at competing perspectives or viewpoints, seeing the merits (and flaws) of each, and using that to form an opinion is not a "defect"... its intellectual honesty.
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:24 PM
Tenring1911 Tenring1911 is offline
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That is great news, POTUS is just amazing. I am going to make another campaign contribution to try and help any way I can get President Trump re-elected.

.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:24 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Fair enough.... I misunderstood the post I cited.

FWIW, looking at competing perspectives or viewpoints, seeing the merits (and flaws) of each, and using that to form an opinion is not a "defect"... its intellectual honesty.
+1911.

Your understanding was quite plausible. Probably what I would have thought in your shoes.

In my prior business career, I was oftentimes obligated by position to make a decision in one direction or the other. There was no option to be undecided. Some of those decisions were not easy; and some were painful because I knew they caused pain to good, reasonable persons.

Perhaps due to that background, whenever I'm not obligated to decide one way or another, and where there appears reasonable people and reasonable arguments on both sides, I breathe a huge sigh of relief when I can be undecided.

Always a +1911 for your contributions WCB.
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  #16  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:55 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Your first statement above is spot on. Society does not owe you a risk free environment. It is up to you to understand and manage your risk. To your credit, you've been quite consistent in this position since this event began.

As to the second point, I would suggest that there is far more to exercising Christian faith than just prayer. Much depends upon what denominational doctrine and traditions you subscribe to. Based on my beliefs and understanding of Scripture, there are certain things that believers are commanded to do: to follow Christ's example of Baptism, to partake of the Lord's Supper often, and to gather together regularly, to teach and admonish one another, to worship and praise as a body of believers....
Absolutely on the Christian life, but this isn't a thread on how the various religions practice, nor do I think most people on the forum particularly care how you or I practice, so I had no reason to list the other stuff I do besides prayer which is likely the most important thing to do. Because prayer is not just reciting stuff, it is a 2 way communication with the Lord...

Religion is an interesting thing, and even institutionalized religion, but (to me) it is very important not to have "ritual" crowd-out a personal relationship with the Lord. A little ritual is fine, but most of it (to me) is about the relationship, communication, and guidance one gets from the Lord. I've seen far too many Christians of all denominations who do all the rituals on Sunday but don't walk the life under stress (like when someone pisses them off for example).

Each denominations even under the Christian umbrella puts various focuses on one vs the other (ritual vs relationship). One of several reason's I left the Catholic Church years ago, too much ritual, some focus on a 1:1 relationship with the Lord, but for me it wasn't enough...But that is America, we each get to choose how to worship. Thank God!

More generally, Religion "practices" of all kinds is a very interesting topic, and I am very well read on the subject, but again, I don't think it is the focus here. Perhaps you can start a thread in the members only section, I would even renew my membership to enjoy a discussion like that. You should become a member too based on all your posting, a "one-time" payment of only $5 will get you started with no obligation to renew after a month. We can certainly have a good "religion" discussion over 30 days :-).
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Old 05-23-2020, 05:32 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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That is great news, POTUS is just amazing. I am going to make another campaign contribution to try and help any way I can get President Trump re-elected.

.
Awsome, and thanks for the reminder, time for me to make my next contribution also.
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Old 05-23-2020, 07:23 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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CA, I owe you an apology. I had no intention whatsoever of questioning your faith, or how you exercise it. I did not intend to suggest or imply that how you practice your faith was somehow improper, inadequate or incorrect.... it is not my place to pass judgment -or even comment- on your relationship with God.

You're correct- this thread isn't about how one practices their faith in general- nor is it about mandatory closures of your favorite cornner bar or local restaurant. Its about mandatory church closures, the free exercise of religion guaranteed by the Constitution, and the belated POTUS response to it....

However, it IS also about how closures of churches impact the free exercise of religion. I simply illustrated an example of where gathering together was not a 'choice' or 'preference ' as you suggested in your post, but an absolute obligation. For those that take this mandate seriously, the government closing churchs, even for an instant, is an absolute infringement, we are being told, under threat of law, that we cannot practice or faith as directed.
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams

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Old 05-23-2020, 07:36 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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At this point, theres no valid reason to keep things on lockdown. The healthcare system was overloaded as the numbers of covid19 grew exponentially 2-3 months ago justifying the original lockdown. That has passed for the most part. Numbers are flat or down. They created a surplus of ventilators where +covid19 patients are doing better on high flow oxygen vs being intubated. (Vented patients died for the most part). As with anything unknown, some significant mistakes were made. Governors Cuomo and Murphy Executive ordering Hospitalized CV+ patients to rehab facilities was a death sentence for many of those people. An error they refuse to take responsibility for ( blame potus, surprise, surprise).
All businesses should be opened imho. The liberals are using this to create more dependency. If YOU’re at risk, or scared don’t go places you don’t need to. Businesses and churches will figure it out on their own how to SD patrons or they may chose to stay closed. They don’t need a 5 step, 2 month floating timetable to micro manage EVERY Increment for business or place of worship. They’re overcompensating at this point because its letting them dictate to society and implement more socialistic generated debt for all of us.
If you were to go out to eat, and the restaurant was packed with tight tables, are you staying or leaving? I’m leaving. The same applies to churches, if the 10am mass is packed, well guess what? I’m not staying, and I know HE will understand.
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Old 05-23-2020, 07:38 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
CA, I owe you an apology. I had no intention whatsoever of questioning your faith, or how you exercise it. I did not intend to suggest or imply that how you practice your faith was somehow improper, inadequate or incorrect.... it is not my place to pass judgment -or even comment- on your relationship with God.

You're correct- this thread isn't about how one practices their faith in general- nor is it about mandatory closures of your favorite cornner bar or local restaurant. Its about mandatory church closures, the free exercise of religion guaranteed by the Constitution, and the belated POTUS response to it....

However, it IS also about how colsures of churches impacr the free exercise of religion. I simply illustrated an example of where gathering together was not a 'choice' or 'preference ' as you suggested in your post, but an absolute obligation. For those that take this mandate seriously, the government closing churchs, even for qn instant, is an absolute infringement, we are being told, under threat of law, that we cannot practice or faith as directed.
No apology needed but thanks...

In the main, I agree on the last par. that is why I felt compelled to post this thread. Hum, on your choice of words, I'll meet you half way, for some it is an obligation to go to a church, for others it is a choice/option...That is called Freedom of religion. For example, for various reason's (which again I don't think we should go into here) I choose to practice my beliefs outside a brick and mortar church (I do attend on-line Church-services), BUT, as I've stated above, I fully support and stand by those who feel it is an obligation to go to one. (Maybe it didn't come across that way, so I'm going to use/add the word "obligation" at this point for those who feel "obligated" to go.)

But really, obligated vs choice is not the issue here, anyone should be (able) to go to a church whether they feel obligated, or feel it is a choice or option. There is no requirement in the Constitution that you are only protected by 1A if you go to church every week, once a year, or never, or whether one feels obligated or not to go.

It is Freedom of religion on "demand" as long as your action's don't hurt anyone in a direct way. ("Hurt in a direct way" requires a deep dive discussion and would be part of this thread if you want to go that route).
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  #21  
Old 05-23-2020, 07:41 AM
IGWright IGWright is offline
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Know anybody who has it? I don't.
That's the thing.
I don't know anyone who I can verify has it,
or had it.

I do know a number of people in LA who have claimed to have had it.
But they are usually people who could probably be bribed/convinced to make up a story "for the greater good".

"To help people make the right decision when it comes to the quarantine."
Lot of that sh*t goin' on these days.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:15 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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But really, obligated vs choice is not the issue here, anyone should be (able) to go to a church whether they feel obligated, or feel it is a choice or option. There is no requirement in the Constitution that you are only protected by 1A if you go to church every week, once a year, or never, or whether one feels obligated or not to go.

It is Freedom of religion on "demand" as long as your action's don't hurt anyone in a direct way. ("Hurt in a direct way" requires a deep dive discussion and would be part of this thread if you want to go that route).
Perhaps its going down the rabbit hole a bit, but I do think that a religious mandate to gather regularly impacts the discussion a little. Without such a directives, one can make the argument that closing a chuch is NOT a 1A infringement. IF all of the mandated activities or practices can be exercised remotely, then is there really infringement?
However, if one of the essential elements of doctrine is gathering together, and this doctrine is well established and supported, then prohibiting such gatherings directly prevents people from practicing their faith as they see fit.

To be clear, I do NOT support the position articulated in the first paragraph I wrote. It is simply to illustrate how seemingly minior differences may have significantly different results....
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:24 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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WCc, just spit ballin to your not a 1A infringement...not that i dont get your point.
^^ Worshipping, beyond the worshipping, is a social event (sometimes the only one) for many people.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:45 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Perhaps its going down the rabbit hole a bit, but I do think that a religious mandate to gather regularly impacts the discussion a little. Without such a directives, one can make the argument that closing a chuch is NOT a 1A infringement. IF all of the mandated activities or practices can be exercised remotely, then is there really infringement?
However, if one of the essential elements of doctrine is gathering together, and this doctrine is well established and supported, then prohibiting such gatherings directly prevents people from practicing their faith as they see fit.

To be clear, I do NOT support the position articulated in the first paragraph I wrote. It is simply to illustrate how seemingly minior differences may have significantly different results....
Well, they can't use the remote argument with impunity as you know. That might be roughly analogous to keeping all the range closed because one can "dry-fire" at home...Just like one needs to feel recoil to fully train, many need to have others around them (physically) and with a live spiritual leader to manifest their religious beliefs.

We had to to issue a law suite in NJ to get the outdoor ranges open (another one is being worked on for the indoor ranges). The judge told both sides to work it out, that is WTH are you kidding NJ, beaches and boardwalk open but not ranges outside. So the Gov. opened them as of yesterday.

Trump may have to get a suit going if the Lefties are dumb enough to fight his "order". But with abortion clinics and liquor stores open it will be an easy win.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:48 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
WCc, just spit ballin to your not a 1A infringement...not that i dont get your point.
^^ Worshipping, beyond the worshipping, is a social event (sometimes the only one) for many people.
It is- its supposed to be. Worship contains a plethora of elements and components, and is not supposed to be a solo activity. One of those elements is congregating, for a variety of purposes. This is the basis for the requirement to gather together. I could cite references, however, the moderators have allowed a great deal of latitude in this area.... there's no need to push the subject and get the thread locked.
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I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
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