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  #1  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:21 PM
passx passx is offline
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Overall case length 9mm Luger flat vs round nose

Hi guy’s, i’m just getting started reloading, 9mm Luger, Hodgdon CFE powder 4.9-5.5g, (thinking for the 4.9g, just punching paper), Berry’s 124g flat nose copper plated bullets. The Hodgdon reloading data shows an overall case length of 1.150 but doesn’t differentiat between a flat nose and a round nose for overall length which affect the seating depth. I measured a couple of Winchester 115g flat nosed service Grade rounds that measure 1.113-1.116in overall length. I then measured several blazer brass 124g round nose that measured at 1.49 to 1.53in.

Am I thinking right that the flat nosed rounds should be seated to provide an overall length of around the 1.115in ?

I also have a new Sierra reloading manual that basically says a max length of 1.169in and also doesn’t differentiate over bullet profiles. Am I over thinking this ? What say you ?

Last edited by passx; 05-25-2019 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 05-25-2019, 09:03 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Case length?
I believe you are talking about Over All Length. OAL.

I can't tell you a recipe for your gun and that bullet.
In general, the loaded round must fit the chamber ("Plunk"), it must fit the magazine, and feed from magazine to chamber.
Start at 1.115" and see if it works. Don't load a whole lot until you have tested.

1.169" is an absolute maximum, possible only with the rather pointy roundnose seen in a lot of factory.
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Old 05-25-2019, 09:20 PM
frogfurr frogfurr is offline
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Buy some reloading manuals and read up on coloring the bullet with a black marker or Sharpie to determine cartridge COAL.
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Old 05-25-2019, 09:39 PM
july19 july19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Case length?
I believe you are talking about Over All Length. OAL.

I can't tell you a recipe for your gun and that bullet.
In general, the loaded round must fit the chamber ("Plunk"), it must fit the magazine, and feed from magazine to chamber.
Start at 1.115" and see if it works. Don't load a whole lot until you have tested.

1.169" is an absolute maximum, possible only with the rather pointy roundnose seen in a lot of factory.
1.115 is what I load to on RN Extreme plated. They work in my GI’s and DW Valor.
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Old 05-25-2019, 09:40 PM
passx passx is offline
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Good suggestions, thx. I just went to the Berry’s bullet site and they recommend the 1.169in COL as a max. So that said, the Hodgdon recommendation of 1.150in COL May be correct. I have a bullet puller ordered so I can pull a round nose out to compare it to the berry’s Flat nose. I realize it has to “fit” the chamber.
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:52 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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What COAL for a flat nose 9mm bullet?

This is hard to specify since the style of bullet and the shape of the ogive may make a difference. Also, the amount of "leade" to the rifling will sometimes make a difference with some barrels, and the ability for the bullet to seat properly in the chamber.

I use a lot of 124 gr. Precision Delta JHP bullets. They shoot accurately and feed flawlessly in my guns. However, I usually use a finishing reamer to slightly increase the leade, which will also help to decrease peak pressure.

I load my 9mm 124 gr. Prec. Delta bullets to a COAL of 1.090" I have never had an issue with my reloads, however, I have an EGW chamber checker gauge, and always check my reloads in the chamber checker. I have the 7-hole chamber checker, but some people like the 50-hole chamber checker. Using the chamber checker is my last step for quality control. I make sure the cartridges will seat, and inspect the primers at the same time. This has been working for me for a very long time.....if I have a problem, it is usually a problem with the gun and not the reloads.....
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by passx View Post
Good suggestions, thx. I just went to the Berry’s bullet site and they recommend the 1.169in COL as a max. So that said, the Hodgdon recommendation of 1.150in COL May be correct. I have a bullet puller ordered so I can pull a round nose out to compare it to the berry’s Flat nose. I realize it has to “fit” the chamber.
Just to clarify, they are not "recommending" anything. Merely stating the SAAMI maximum cartridge over-all length for that caliber. And, as Jim commented, that OAL only works with specific bullets. Most reloaders don't purchase those type bullets.
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:19 AM
f1racefan f1racefan is offline
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Originally Posted by frogfurr View Post
Buy some reloading manuals and read up on coloring the bullet with a black marker or Sharpie to determine cartridge COAL.
You should probably expand on the practice of using the Sharpie to color the bullet. I believe the main goal is to make certain that with the bullet chambered, no part of the bullet is touching the leade in the barrel.
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Old 05-27-2019, 09:51 PM
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This has been an Enlightening experience. My Hodgdon loading manual recommended an overall length of 1.150 for this load and after reading the responses here it dawned on me that it’s not as much about the spacing in the Shell as it is headspacing and not pushing the bullet to deep into the chamber and rifling. The sharpie was a great suggestion and showed me that a overall length of 1.150 was to long and wouldn’t allow the bullet to fully seat in the chamber w/o hitting the rifling. Shortening things up a bit to 1.140in and it fits my “tight” Springfield chamberjust fine as well as my gauge block. I was concerned that shortening the OAL would cause excess pressure in the cartridge.

Am I thinking correctly about this ?
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:47 AM
johnnyreloader johnnyreloader is offline
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FWIW- just had issue with new Taurus G2C where my 124gr PC loaded to 1.16" would not chamber, slide getting stuck about 3/8" from going into battery. This load works fine in all my other 9's. Ended up having to push bullet back to 1.08" to get reliable feeding.
Concerned with increased pressures, compared location of bullet base in case to other bullet styles with same charge. New OAL still had that 124gr pc not seated as deep as other bullets, so I assumed no pressure issue. New OAL rounds fired just fine through G2C, no signs of over pressure.
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Old 05-28-2019, 06:58 AM
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One other thing on mine that affected it chambering in my tight Springfield spare barrel is that once I pushed the oal back from 1.150in to 1.140in and it was no longer hittinting on the rifling I found that it still wouldn’t fully chamber in either the Barrel or the gage block, slightly tightening the crimp (1/16 of a turn) now allows it to fully seat, a correct “plop” test as it were.

It just amazes me how extremely small adjustments really affect the end result. I feel like I have the sizing, belling,seat depth and crimp pretty much set, now I need to work on proper powder drop quantity and once I feel comfy with that start Loading and then measure, measure, check, check as I go. I think i’ll Go to the rangefirst thought to create some more brass case stock.

Short of chronographing the bullet speed is there any way to tell if the case pressures are a little high or low ? Things to look for ?

As a side note, what kind of inventory do most of you keep in stock before loading more ? Maybe not a proper public question, but just curious.

Last edited by passx; 05-28-2019 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:47 AM
Colt191145 Colt191145 is offline
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If you are using mixed brass your OAL will have variations. Not all bullets are exactly the same length consistently either. After trial and error you will find an OAL that works in your pistol(s).

Be sure to go slow and "read" your primers. The fired brass and primers will tell you what is going on. Flattened primers mean high pressure.

As for the question of how much "inventory" to keep on hand, I can refer you to the one phrase to live by: "there is never enough ammo"!

If you recall 2008 and 2012, store bought ammo was in short supply and very expensive.

That will happen again. Keep loading, build your ammo stash. When another ammo shortage comes along you will have enough ammo loaded to laugh your way through the drought.

Reloaders stock up on brass, bullets, primers and powder. If you are even more ambitious then start casting your own bullets. You will need a supply of lead, some bullet moulds, and sizing dies then.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
This has been an Enlightening experience.

I was concerned that shortening the OAL would cause excess pressure in the cartridge.

Am I thinking correctly about this ?
Yes, shortening the OAL will increase pressure. Whether or not it becomes "excessive" pressure is difficult (almost impossible) to say for us handloaders without pressure-measuring instrumentation. In my experience, if your OAL is just long enough to "plunk" & feed properly, and you're not at the very max., you will be OK pressure-wise. The proper procedure is to start at the min. charge and work your way up, looking for "pressure signs" (i.e. unusual recoil, flattened primers, difficult extraction (swelled case), or, in the extreme, a blown out case.
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:19 AM
GySgt 7291 GySgt 7291 is offline
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One other thing on mine that affected it chambering in my tight Springfield spare barrel is that once I pushed the oal back from 1.150in to 1.140in and it was no longer hittinting on the rifling I found that it still wouldn’t fully chamber in either the Barrel or the gage block, slightly tightening the crimp (1/16 of a turn) now allows it to fully seat, a correct “plop” test as it were.
OAL 1.1 with Zero 125gr JHP works great in my guns. I've found 9mm reloading can be tedious, mixed brass can be bulged depending on supported or unsupported chambers. I decap, size and chamber gauge each case before tumbling and reloading. A majority of the cases that fail are due to deformed rims and are discarded. After reloading I check about 10% with the chamber gauge, no reloaded rounds have failed the chamber gauge doing it this way either. I know this sounds like overkill but since doing it this way I've not had any fail to chamber or extract (stick in the chamber).
Also your crimp should be a taper crimp, I have seen roll crimps causing trouble with semi-autos.
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:33 PM
passx passx is offline
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Butch, all i’m Doing at this point is a taper crimp, may roll crimp in the future but I have a lot to learn before that becomes something i’ll Do.

I’m a little surprised at the number of deformed rims i’m Finding and They just go in the Trash at This point.

Also, just wanted to say thanks for helping me out on all this.
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:46 PM
parallax parallax is offline
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What are the bullet OAL in round nose vs flat?

SAAMI specs are a maximum COAL of 1.169 in 9mm, (presumably with a RN bullet.)
If the flat point is shorter than the round nose, I would try to adjust accordingly, but remember, it also depends on where your seating die contacts the bullet, and most seating dies are designed for RN bullets.
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:55 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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It used to be easy to get a seater plug made to match different bullet shapes.

Die makers would sell you one for a very nominal charge.

You sent them a few bullets.

Not so easy any more apparently.

I have a metal lathe so it is easy enough to make whatever I need.
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:19 PM
Andyk Andyk is offline
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I've been loading my PCC 115gr rn to 1.115 but it is near impossible to manually eject a round once its chambered. Have to shoot it out with no mag or empty mag. They all case gauge and shoot fine, just to long I guess.
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Old 05-28-2019, 11:04 PM
wv109323 wv109323 is offline
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Most reloading manuals give the maximum length of a cartridge. That is the maximum length of a round that will fit in a magazine. Any longer and the nose of the bullet may rub the magazine. It is not a suggested loading length.
The OAL I use depends on the bullet profile. If the bullet has a shoulder, I leave about 1/32" of the bullet above the mouth of the case. That is the dimension berween the bullet shoulder and the case mouth. This is a good rule of thumb for reliable functioning.
Another thing to consider is the amount of powder capacity that is taken up by the bullet in the case. The more capacity taken up the higher the pressure. So if you seat a trunacated cone and a round nose bullet to the same depth in the case ,the round nose bullet will have a longer OAL. Of course both bullets need to be the same weight.
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Old 05-29-2019, 05:32 AM
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Good advice thus far, but I just wanted to add.
Check the exact bullet you will be using in all your barrels and load for the shortest chamber/magazine. Start with manufacturer data on the specific bullet, if available.
Give yourself a little wiggle room, especially if you use mixed brass like most of us do.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:18 AM
passx passx is offline
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One off the things that’s become very obvious with this thread is that there is no exact standard on this other than the SAMII max length of 1.169in. Everything else seems to be simply just making the cartridge fit the chamber or a personal preference.

On mine I made a few setup piece’s at 1.135 to 1.140in that fit fine in what was typically my “tight” Springfield RO chamber (diameter) but cleaning guns last night and trying these “setup” rounds in several other guns I found that they would not chamber in my Sig P320 RX or my p938 because they hit hard on the chamber lead-in (short) which I then shortened to 1.125 - 1.130in, using a marker on the bullet showed it was definitely hitting on the lead-in chamfer.

So before I start making rounds I think i’ll Shorten the COL to be 1.120-1.125 COL which is suspiciously close to the Winchester 115g service grade flat nosed rounds I originally asked about at 1.113-1.115in COL.

As a side note i’ve Contacted Berry’s (the bullet maker) and Hodgdon (powder maker) both about recommended COL and both would only say a Max of 1.169in which is the SAMII spec. Both suggested that I check the fit in the gun they are to be used in before actually using them.

Kinda reminds me of asking which oil is best in your car,,,,, but there’s been a number of helpful tips and suggestions,, thx.

Last edited by passx; 05-29-2019 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:59 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Everything else seems to be simply just making the cartridge fit the chamber or a personal preference.
100% function.

Especially with anything except the 230 gr. BALL the gun was designed around.
Sometimes seemingly minor changes in COAL have effects on feed reliability.
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Old 05-29-2019, 02:27 PM
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The OAL length is different for many different guns. There are, if I remember correctly, 4 different chamber v. barrel configurations. The best way to determine where you need to be is load one and put it in the barrel (out of the gun) and see if it chambers completely, if not it's too long. Shoot for the longest OAL to comfortably fit in the barrel.
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Old 05-29-2019, 03:12 PM
Oldfut808 Oldfut808 is offline
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Originally Posted by Colt191145 View Post
If you are using mixed brass your OAL will have variations. Not all bullets are exactly the same length consistently either. en.
....
How does brass affect OAL?
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Old 05-29-2019, 08:14 PM
Cowboy Bill Cowboy Bill is offline
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....
How does brass affect OAL?
Yea, does anybody know what they're talking about here?
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