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  #1  
Old 03-04-2019, 01:33 AM
PhantomF4E PhantomF4E is offline
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Engage thumb safety when tactical reloading

A local Saturday night gun club requires new shooters qualify to shoot their tactical style match. I shot my SA Loaded.
I didnít pass because I fumbled my tac reloads(going too fast)more than once and then I didnít engage the thumb safety while tac reloading . Last month the RO I had didnít say anything. But this past Sat. a different RO wouldnít pass me.
For some reason these guys stress tac reloads. Iíll slow down next month
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  #2  
Old 03-04-2019, 05:19 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Engaging the thumb safety on a TAC reload...

First off, I have never had any pistol club require engaging the thumb safety when doing a TAC reload......are guns that don't use thumb safeties any less safe when conducting a TAC reload....? What is important when conducting a TAC reload is keeping your trigger finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard, and keeping the muzzle in a safe direction so you don't break the 180 or point the weapon at something you don't want to shoot....

Even when I have shot at indoor ranges conducting action shooting scenarios, I have never heard of a requirement to engage the thumb safety for a TAC reload for guns that have them.....
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  #3  
Old 03-04-2019, 05:37 AM
Mr_Garth Mr_Garth is offline
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How can one go too fast? I mean how is that reason for failing? Also as pointed out already engaging thumb safety seems odd requirement

-Garth
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  #4  
Old 03-04-2019, 07:00 AM
blastjv blastjv is offline
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I read that to mean he fumbled his tactical reloads because he was going too fast which caused him to fail.

A lot of AR guys are pretty strict about the safety being on ANY time you are not actively shooting. This may be a carry-over from there? I've never heard of it for pistol. I don't agree with it, but I guess I see the logic.
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Last edited by blastjv; 03-04-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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  #5  
Old 03-04-2019, 09:59 AM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Sounds like a match without a defined set of rules or a lack of consistency in Range Officers.

In my mind that a clue to go somewhere else.
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:13 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I have never heard of a requirement to engage the thumb safety for a TAC reload for guns that have them.....
Take a class from one of former Delta guys, ask this question.

It is a well known teaching point that has been specifically emphasized by Pat McNamara. Not just tac reloads and not just 1911s. Every time a weapon that has a safety comes off the target, the safety goes on. If it is a DA/SA pistol, every time it comes of the target, it gets decocked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
Sounds like a match without a defined set of rules or a lack of consistency in Range Officers.

In my mind that a clue to go somewhere else.
I totally agree.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:44 PM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Take a class from one of former Delta guys, ask this question.



It is a well known teaching point that has been specifically emphasized by Pat McNamara. Not just tac reloads and not just 1911s. Every time a weapon that has a safety comes off the target, the safety goes on. If it is a DA/SA pistol, every time it comes of the target, it gets decocked.









I totally agree.
This is the competition forum right? Anything the "Delta Guys" say doesn't apply.

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  #8  
Old 03-04-2019, 11:23 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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We're discussing tactical reloads, no? Does "tactical" apply to the competition forum?
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #9  
Old 03-05-2019, 01:46 AM
PhantomF4E PhantomF4E is offline
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The range officer who was overseeing me had a Gunsite ball cap.
The RO from last month was a good ol boy , guess he didn’t give a crap
Both were very nice, I’ll go back to the old dude next month.
Thanks for the replies
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  #10  
Old 03-05-2019, 05:19 AM
smokey-seven smokey-seven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Every time a weapon that has a safety comes off the target, the safety goes on. If it is a DA/SA pistol, every time it comes of the target, it gets decocked.
Ok, please enlighten this old guy. With a real 1911A1, just what is the correct sequence to do this.

Scenario: empty mag, slide locks back. Do I drop the mag, release the slide, decock and safety on before inserting a new mag?

That's not the way I was taught. Again, I'm ancient.
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  #11  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:28 AM
parallax parallax is offline
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I have NEVER heard of any sanctioned competition where a safety must be engaged or gun decocked during a reload, (tactical or otherwise.) Safety on or decocked before holstering a hot gun, sure, but not DURING a reload!

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  #12  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:50 AM
blastjv blastjv is offline
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In this context, a "Tactical" reload is when one is proactively replacing a partially depleted magazine with a full one. The idea regarding the safety, is that because the chamber is loaded and the gun could potentially fire, one would come off the trigger, engage the safety, depress the magazine release, retain the partially loaded magazine, insert a fresh magazine, and if you are then going to resume shooting, you would disengage the safety and go to work. The idea is to prevent an accidental discharge during the reloading procedure, and to ensure that if you are not going to continue shooting immediately after the reload, that your gun is already on safe.
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  #13  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:07 AM
midvalley1911 midvalley1911 is offline
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Sounds kind of arbitrary to me. Rules two and three should be stressed in this case. IMO a tactical reload is done to keep the firearm ready to fire during the process. Why would one want the safety on? Is the RO a fan of pistols without safeties?

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  #14  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:21 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey-seven View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Every time a weapon that has a safety comes off the target, the safety goes on. If it is a DA/SA pistol, every time it comes of the target, it gets decocked.
Ok, please enlighten this old guy. With a real 1911A1, just what is the correct sequence to do this.

Scenario: empty mag, slide locks back. Do I drop the mag, release the slide, decock and safety on before inserting a new mag?
Absolutely not. Now, you're describing a slide lock reload, not a tactical reload. Empty gun is a useless piece of metal, it needs to be loaded asap. Reload that's being discussed is replacing a partially spent with a full mag, done electively when there is time for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by parallax View Post
I have NEVER heard of any sanctioned competition where a safety must be engaged or gun decocked during a reload, (tactical or otherwise.) Safety on or decocked before holstering a hot gun, sure, but not DURING a reload!

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I agree, and that is why I stopped shooting any competition that mandates anything "tactical". They keep saying that they are trying to enforce and ingrain real world habits, but do it arbitrarily at best, or not at all at worst.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3

Last edited by YVK; 03-05-2019 at 09:29 AM.
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  #15  
Old 03-05-2019, 10:17 AM
CyberDyneSystems CyberDyneSystems is offline
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You can't de-cock and engage a thumb safety on a 1911...
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  #16  
Old 03-06-2019, 05:02 AM
smokey-seven smokey-seven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDyneSystems View Post
You can't de-cock and engage a thumb safety on a 1911...

Which is one of the reasons for my post when it was said,
Quote:
Every time a weapon that has a safety comes off the target, the safety goes on. If it is a DA/SA pistol, every time it comes of the target, it gets decocked.
I understand the tactical reload with a partially full magazine and I understand the reasoning behind, "safety on" during this maneuver. I cannot wrap my head around decocking with a round in the chamber. I know some pistols can do this but it just flies against everything I have ever done. Unless we are talking about a pistol without a safety and decocking is the ony way to make the gun safe. Do all DA/SA pistols NOT have a safety?

That said, one of the most frequently used item at inspection was the sand bucket for decocking.
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Last edited by smokey-seven; 03-06-2019 at 05:05 AM.
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2019, 07:12 AM
yeti yeti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomF4E View Post
A local Saturday night gun club requires new shooters qualify to shoot their tactical style match. I shot my SA Loaded.
I didnít pass because I fumbled my tac reloads(going too fast)more than once and then I didnít engage the thumb safety while tac reloading . Last month the RO I had didnít say anything. But this past Sat. a different RO wouldnít pass me.
For some reason these guys stress tac reloads. Iíll slow down next month
The unsanctioned club 'match' can set any rules they like, but engaging the thumb safety for reloads with retention/tac reload/speed reload is very unusual for competition.
Talk to the CRO and/or the Range Master to straighten that nonsense out.
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  #18  
Old 03-06-2019, 08:41 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by smokey-seven View Post
I cannot wrap my head around decocking with a round in the chamber. I know some pistols can do this but it just flies against everything I have ever done. Unless we are talking about a pistol without a safety and decocking is the ony way to make the gun safe. Do all DA/SA pistols NOT have a safety?
.
Well, most people whose experience and skill levels with DA/SA pistols put them into positions of authority came from units and departments issuing SIG 229/226 and those are decock-only, no manual safety guns. I've had and still have a ton of Berettas, but all of mine are decock only too so I'll excuse myself from M9 manual of arms discussion, although I thought that if it was in a hammer cocked state, you couldn't engage manual safety without decocking first. I could be very wrong here though.

Anyway, this discussion/argument comes up regularly between competitors and tactical crowd. We (competitors) have been running through courses of fire with DA/SA guns with 2 lbs triggers without decocking or safetying for a long time and without issues. All tactical instructors, without exception, insisted on decocking as soon as gun came off the target. This is a situation where despite my personal experience I defer to experts' opinion.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3

Last edited by YVK; 03-06-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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  #19  
Old 03-06-2019, 01:48 PM
SG29736 SG29736 is offline
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If you need to decock or engage the safety to feel safe while reloading or moving, do it . Some people aren't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber.
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  #20  
Old 03-07-2019, 04:37 AM
smokey-seven smokey-seven is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
although I thought that if it was in a hammer cocked state, you couldn't engage manual safety without decocking first. I could be very wrong here though.
Opposite way around. The thumb safety on a 1911 will not engage unless the hammer is cocked.
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  #21  
Old 03-07-2019, 05:54 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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I have never encountered this requirement at a competitive venue either. I too would look for another option.

When I lived in the Tactical world, it was common place to require your AR to be placed on safe any time the muzzle came off target. With the handgun it came off safe as soon as it left the holster and was not required to go back on until it was to be re-holstered. (We were Issued MP9's with thumb safety)
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  #22  
Old 03-07-2019, 08:10 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is online now
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Is there one common definition of a "tactical" reload?

Is there a common definition that covers all the various pistol types?

In competition there are specific rules based on very controlled environment. Simply follow these rules.

In the real world of LE/Military follow your general orders. When doing training I have to ask what their unit/agency general orders are and train accordingly.

Muzzle control is another issue for another thread!

Many of us have seen disastrous results when some military types shoot their first match! This may explain the differences in tactical reload requirements.

Smiles,
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  #23  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:57 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Originally Posted by tom freeman View Post
sounds like a match without a defined set of rules or a lack of consistency in range officers.

In my mind that a clue to go somewhere else.
this!!!!!
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  #24  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:11 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey-seven View Post
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
although I thought that if it was in a hammer cocked state, you couldn't engage manual safety without decocking first. I could be very wrong here though.
Opposite way around. The thumb safety on a 1911 will not engage unless the hammer is cocked.
I was talking about the M9, it says so in my post. We were taking about decocking DA/SA guns.
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  #25  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:39 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Take a class from one of former Delta guys, ask this question.

It is a well known teaching point that has been specifically emphasized by Pat McNamara. Not just tac reloads and not just 1911s. Every time a weapon that has a safety comes off the target, the safety goes on. If it is a DA/SA pistol, every time it comes of the target, it gets decocked.

I totally agree.
This is a truth in professional, operational shooting. A CAG shooter will wear out a selector long before he burns up a barrel. The military, at the highest degree of the profession of arms, doesn't accept single points of failure. The first point to prevent failure is drilling finger off trigger unless shooting, drilled and assessed thousands of times. The second point of prevention is safety ON unless actively engaging a target- period. Fail to get with the program, and you're back to the Deuce- if you're lucky...
Its nothing new, it was drilled into me in 2/75 30 years ago.

How it applies to gun games, I don't know...
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