Has this happened to you -- bang, bang, pffft! - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-26-2017, 08:20 PM
vmr357 vmr357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 773
Has this happened to you -- bang, bang, pffft!

A friend and I went shooting the other day. We shot our pistols, no problem. Then he wanted to try his new upper he got from a local builder. He shot a mag, then handed the rifle to me with a new mag. I fired several rounds then PFFFT and a cloud of smoke. The gun was locked up. The charging handle wouldn't budge. We packed up and he took the rifle to an armorer he knew who dug out a split case and a broken extractor. He said it was Federal .223 rem 55 grain FMJ Walmart box.
Attached Thumbnails
18058009_10210715875906860_4858691766445670246_n.jpg   18056744_10210715875946861_8015761905183733192_n.jpg  
__________________
Utah, the birthplace of John M. Browning
COTEP#CBOB0471
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-26-2017, 08:23 PM
Texas Guy Texas Guy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,831
What was the bolt? The extractor broke and wedged into the case


Sent from a distant planet far far away
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-26-2017, 08:28 PM
Sgt. Y Sgt. Y is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,730
The last box of Federal anything was some 22lr for my wife and it was crap had so many squibs I was afraid the lead was stuck in the barrel.

For practice shooting I use PMC Bronze .223 burns cleaner good quality brass and never had a bad round in all I have shot of it.

For my AR I bought a Toms Tactical BCG, very good quality they specialize in them, the bolts are shot peened and magnafluxed. Always best to source your parts from quality. My neighbor bought a Spikes upper despite my objections and that thing is junk. He has had it to my house a dozen times because parts were flying apart inside, starting with the forward assist to the bcg. All this Obama era parts and assemblies and the run on ammo decreased the quality all around.

Last edited by Sgt. Y; 04-26-2017 at 08:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 04-26-2017, 09:07 PM
vmr357 vmr357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Guy View Post
What was the bolt? The extractor broke and wedged into the case
Not my rifle, so I don't know what was in it. It was locked up tight. The report I got the next day was that it took over an hour to break it down and clean it up.

I figure life is too short for a cheap, ugly gun so I've got a DDM4v7. I would appreciate any ammo recommendations. I'm more a handgun guy than a long gun guy. I've got some PMC Bronze .223, PMC X-Tac 5.56, and thought I'd try some American Eagle 5.56 XM193. Anything else anyone would recommend?
__________________
Utah, the birthplace of John M. Browning
COTEP#CBOB0471
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-26-2017, 09:44 PM
dsk's Avatar
dsk dsk is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 70,220
I won't buy any of the black-box Federal 5.56 ammo anymore. I've encountered poorly-crimped bullets and once had a bullet telescope back into the case during feeding. Fortunately when the primer went off the powder simply caught fire and made a mess inside the action, since the bullet had fallen back inside the case. I don't understand how a company that makes premium quality handgun ammo like HSTs and Hydra-Shoks can mess up and make some really crappy 5.56 and .22LR ammo.
__________________
Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-27-2017, 05:28 AM
huntershooter huntershooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,106
For inexpensive range ammo (55 gr) I use Wolf Gold, in addition to PMC Bronze.
Never had a problem.

"Toolcraft" makes a heck of a good BCG- that is reasonably priced.
I've used them in recent builds.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-27-2017, 08:33 AM
Sure1 Sure1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: FLORIDA
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I won't buy any of the black-box Federal 5.56 ammo anymore. I've encountered poorly-crimped bullets and once had a bullet telescope back into the case during feeding. Fortunately when the primer went off the powder simply caught fire and made a mess inside the action, since the bullet had fallen back inside the case. I don't understand how a company that makes premium quality handgun ammo like HSTs and Hydra-Shoks can mess up and make some really crappy 5.56 and .22LR ammo.
Wow I'll stick to PMC.
__________________
WC TSG 9/45 Vickers Elite 9mm EDC X9/Nighthawk Classic Bob Marvel SS 9mm/EB PATRIOT 3 EB KC/KC LW/SACS TGO-1 PC9111 Nowlin PC9111R PC9102 Nowlin PC9104/Colt SCGRG SCGRGC M45/Anvi III /MEUSOC 1911/1943 Ithaca/Les Baer 1.5 TR NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-27-2017, 08:54 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmr357 View Post
Not my rifle, so I don't know what was in it. It was locked up tight. The report I got the next day was that it took over an hour to break it down and clean it up.

I figure life is too short for a cheap, ugly gun so I've got a DDM4v7. I would appreciate any ammo recommendations. I'm more a handgun guy than a long gun guy. I've got some PMC Bronze .223, PMC X-Tac 5.56, and thought I'd try some American Eagle 5.56 XM193. Anything else anyone would recommend?
While better ammo surely won't hurt, you're ASSUMING that the ammo was the cause of this event. An out of spec chamber could have caused the stuck case.

Until you've identified the cause, any remedy is just speculation.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:11 AM
vmr357 vmr357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
While better ammo surely won't hurt, you're ASSUMING that the ammo was the cause of this event. An out of spec chamber could have caused the stuck case.

Until you've identified the cause, any remedy is just speculation.
Good point. The rifle has been in use before and run without problems, but we are making an assumption about the ammo. I'll remind my friend of that fact.
__________________
Utah, the birthplace of John M. Browning
COTEP#CBOB0471
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:28 AM
ktmoutlaw ktmoutlaw is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 70
So the interesting question becomes how do you confirm chamber specifications? I know of only one tool from a place called Michiguns that even looks common person usable, let alone this only answers the 556 vs 223 question. I joined these forums looking for the answer to this exact problem! But, seeing it's not OP rifle doubt it's going to get resolved and posted. Good luck

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
__________________
unaddressed behavior is condoned behavior....
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:33 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmr357 View Post
Good point. The rifle has been in use before and run without problems, but we are making an assumption about the ammo. I'll remind my friend of that fact.
Stuck cases (the base cause of the problem) can be caused by out of spec ammo, out of spec chambers, poorly or uncoated chambers, bad extractor, fouling, or heat... often a combination of many of these factors.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:14 AM
ktmoutlaw ktmoutlaw is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 70
Well since this is a forum and my only credibility is based on my replies I would like to start an open discussion based on the picture that was shown the casing was ripped apart by the extractor which appears to have been separated from the bolt. I would like to see each of the above listed things that could have led to something other than an out of spec chamber. If we are talking out of spec ammo does that mean it's loaded too hot has incorrect projectile dimensions? My goal would be to collaborate and get a sticky thread to show how to properly diagnose this occurrence.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
__________________
unaddressed behavior is condoned behavior....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:50 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmoutlaw View Post
Well since this is a forum and my only credibility is based on my replies I would like to start an open discussion based on the picture that was shown the casing was ripped apart by the extractor which appears to have been separated from the bolt. I would like to see each of the above listed things that could have led to something other than an out of spec chamber. If we are talking out of spec ammo does that mean it's loaded too hot has incorrect projectile dimensions? My goal would be to collaborate and get a sticky thread to show how to properly diagnose this occurrence.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
The case became stuck. Based on the pictures, the cause was NOT a bad extractor. Had the extractor broken or slipped off the case, leaving the brass relatively undamaged, the extractor may have been the culprit.

So the question becomes: what caused the case to stick, to the point that the rim was ripped off and the extractor broken?

- Out of spec ammo. Either an overcharge that swelled the brass to the sticking point, or brass that was too soft and over expanded. Given the "pffft" reported by the OP, overpressue seems unlikely, though the bolt tried to go rearwqrd, with enough force to break the extractor and dqmage the case. Improper case dimensions could be a cause.

- Heat. Less than 60 rounds fired, so probably minimal impact

- Fouling. This assumes that the upper has been used before, and not cleaned.

- Poor chamber coating. If the surface of the chamber doesn't hqve a smooth surface, the brass can bind to it, causing a stuck case. The same principle applies to an out of spec chamber.

Most likely a combination of contributing factors. Even with good ammo, a bad chamber, some fouling, and heat could cause a stuck case.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-27-2017, 11:42 AM
ktmoutlaw ktmoutlaw is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 70
So the high school scientist in me would like to see the same weapon firing again and to see if the problem could be replicated. Also if some of the ammunition used is still around to try and remove that from the equation. I still think the chamber could be 223 not 556. Bringing the ammo in question if it was 223 or 556.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
__________________
unaddressed behavior is condoned behavior....
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-27-2017, 11:52 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,070
Tough to do. IF the cause was a bad round, you could fire 10k rounds of the same ammo and not have a problem.

A gunsmith can evaluate both the chamber cut and coating. Heat and fouling failures are somewhat random, and may or may not be easily repeatable.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:26 PM
1saxman 1saxman is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 14,993
Also, it had to go 'bang' and then 'pfft' because the bullet was gone before the gas hit the bolt and the extractor pulled on the case. Because the case stuck, the extractor ripped it open before breaking. I say it must have been that way because no mention was made of the bullet stuck in the barrel, so it was not a 'squib' round but a full-power one.
I have to guess that the chamber in that barrel is a .223 instead of a 5.56, or is otherwise a tighter than normal chamber where the dirt from a few rounds jammed it.
Either way it doesn't sound like anybody tore down the new upper and gave it a thorough cleaning, inspection and lube before shooting it.
I suspect there is a problem of some kind in that upper; either in the chamber or the headspace.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-27-2017, 01:42 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
...

- Fouling. This assumes that the upper has been used before, and not cleaned.

....
Naturally, I have no idea what factors were involved here, but I have seen similar occurrences. In those cases, the culprit has been a switch in ammo from steel-cased to brass. The fouling generated by the steel-cased stuff is substantial compared to brass, since the seal with the chamber is not as tight as with brass. No issue at all if all that is shot is steel. However, upon switching to brass without a thorough cleaning, the case locks in tight into the fouling. Typically, the extractor rips the head off the case. But I imagine that a weakened extractor might also fail. Again, no clue of what the variables were here, but it does look familiar.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-27-2017, 02:02 PM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alabama and Florida, US
Posts: 11,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmoutlaw View Post
So the interesting question becomes how do you confirm chamber specifications?...
A chamber cast using Cerrosafe is a common practice. A bit tricky on an assembled upper, but doable with some forethought.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-27-2017, 03:01 PM
screwtape.460 screwtape.460 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmr357 View Post
Not my rifle, so I don't know what was in it. It was locked up tight. The report I got the next day was that it took over an hour to break it down and clean it up.

I figure life is too short for a cheap, ugly gun so I've got a DDM4v7. I would appreciate any ammo recommendations. I'm more a handgun guy than a long gun guy. I've got some PMC Bronze .223, PMC X-Tac 5.56, and thought I'd try some American Eagle 5.56 XM193. Anything else anyone would recommend?
I shoot surplus US military ammo through my AR platforms.Lakecity is the best but ive gotten good ammo regardless of the arsenal or country of origin everytime ive bought surplus nato ammo....m855 or xm193 in sealed 200rd packs.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-27-2017, 03:34 PM
The Heater The Heater is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: S.Oregon
Posts: 148
In fifty years of shooting all types of guns and all brands of ammo, the only pfft, I ever encountered was military surplus from the 1950s and someone else's reloads.
I've never had commercial factory ammo do that. I have had some 22s of various brands, just fail to fire at all. The only sound was the hammer falling or firing pin striking the back of the case. A dud if you will.
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Police and Civilian Instructor
"Let's be careful out there."
Michael Conrad
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:24 PM
Swabby01 Swabby01 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California
Posts: 48
I have used Hornady, Federal, PMC, and ONE MAG of Wolf. Never an issue with anything but wolf and had one hang and a lot of ugly residue from the rest. Maybe I just live a charmed life but all of my Federal has worked fine (over 5000 rounds). Have reloaded Federal Brass and still have had no issues.

Last edited by Swabby01; 04-27-2017 at 04:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:28 PM
jims1911C jims1911C is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 482
I'm thinking the extractor

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmr357 View Post
A friend and I went shooting the other day. We shot our pistols, no problem. Then he wanted to try his new upper he got from a local builder. He shot a mag, then handed the rifle to me with a new mag. I fired several rounds then PFFFT and a cloud of smoke. The gun was locked up. The charging handle wouldn't budge. We packed up and he took the rifle to an armorer he knew who dug out a split case and a broken extractor. He said it was Federal .223 rem 55 grain FMJ Walmart box.
and maybe out of spec chamber as someone mentioned. I'm thinking the chamber is extremely tight and the extractor ripped the casing. Could also be this is a parts gun put together on the kitchen table using who knows where "from" cheapo parts and probably by a novice gun builder..... Likely the situation here.
I wouldn't blame the ammo.

Last edited by jims1911C; 04-27-2017 at 04:31 PM. Reason: sp
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:33 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by jims1911C View Post
and maybe out of spec chamber as someone mentioned. Mainly you know a broken extractor would cause this malfunction although extremely rare (to the max)...Unless somehow this is a parts gun put together on the kitchen table using who knows where "from" cheapo parts and probably by a novice gun builder..... Likely the situation here.
I wouldn't blame the ammo.
I would suggest this is improbable, given the case damage... the stuck case broke the extractor, rather than than a failed extractor resulting in the case being stuck...

Were the case relatively undamaged, yet stuck, the extractor could be part of the problem....
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:37 PM
Khufu Khufu is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt. Y View Post
The last box of Federal anything was some 22lr for my wife and it was crap had so many squibs I was afraid the lead was stuck in the barrel.

For practice shooting I use PMC Bronze .223 burns cleaner good quality brass and never had a bad round in all I have shot of it.

For my AR I bought a Toms Tactical BCG, very good quality they specialize in them, the bolts are shot peened and magnafluxed. Always best to source your parts from quality. My neighbor bought a Spikes upper despite my objections and that thing is junk. He has had it to my house a dozen times because parts were flying apart inside, starting with the forward assist to the bcg. All this Obama era parts and assemblies and the run on ammo decreased the quality all around.
My shooting buddy shoots PMC bronze in his ruger SR762 and was not recovering his brass. I picked it up to reload for practice rounds for my AR 10. at least 5 in 10 had the primers blow out because the case web was so soft the heads deformed, I asked him if he had any issues with it and he said he was getting a few FTEs but nothing serious. now I just leave PMC brass laying on the ground like wolf steel cases. the PMC ,223/5.56 cases I cut down to 300 BO were a huge waste of time I stick with lake City in both 5.56 and 7.62. I have never had any issue any Lake City brass. I have never tried PMC in handguns, maybe that's better.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-27-2017, 05:16 PM
RTW365 RTW365 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 67
Your friend "wanted to try his new upper he got from a local builder"...a man in the tactical training field advised, any put together parts, kits, bought on line...is a put together "parts gun"/"kitchen gun". If I buy an AR, I'll buy a quality name and I'll pay more but I'll end up with a gun built by a company with a history and a reputation and I doubt I'll have a minute's trouble with the gun.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:29 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved