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  #1  
Old 04-29-2017, 02:07 PM
shooter1201 shooter1201 is offline
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Designated Marksman's rifle setup?

Several years ago I bought a Del-Ton Evolution AR in FDE. It has been sitting in the box, unfired for over 3 years. I now am wanting to set it up as a Designated Marksman's rifle, with 400 meters as the max range. What do you guys recommend doing to accomplish this?
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2017, 05:06 PM
Cknugget Cknugget is offline
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A harris bipod set on a quick detach pic rail adapter.

A midrange variable scope in a larue lt104 mount. This is a big budget item.

Weaver grand slam tactical. Midwayusa exclusive $329
Vortex viper pst II 2-10 $1k
Vortex razor II 3-18 $2.2k

The razor is the most durable and repeatable with the most features. The weaver has Japanese glass and is the one of the best buys for a cheap scope on the market. Viper splits the difference.
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  #3  
Old 04-29-2017, 06:21 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Well......personally I use an LWRC SPR with just an aimpoint M4s for those distances. I would say to make it easier to get hits at speed just get a Gissile SSA two stage trigger (I have one on all my ARs) and a nice 1-4 optic or a 1-6.

I don't ready think bipods are ever truly needed unless you are shooting 1000+ or dont know how to properly brace a gun. The vortex viper 1-4 is more than you will need for optics. 400 yards is really not that far at all.
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  #4  
Old 04-29-2017, 06:41 PM
Win94ae Win94ae is offline
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A lot of people get DMR scopes mixed up with sniper scopes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAk2Hw6gL44


This is a DM vs Sniper shooting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-lzntzA0qM
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Last edited by Win94ae; 04-29-2017 at 06:57 PM.
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  #5  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:17 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Good Ammo

Quality 1-4 or 1-6 optic.
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  #6  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:44 AM
huntershooter huntershooter is offline
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Not familiar with your "Del-Ton Evolution AR". Also you mention "shooting to 400 yds".

What are your accuracy requirements (smallest target at 400 yds.)?
Does your gun have a free float rail?
Will you want, or run, a Mil reticle or ranging reticle scope?

I have no problem shooting 10" steel at 400 yds. with a 1-6 Trijicon "Accupoint" (mil reticle), but that's about my limit.
If the reticle subtends 2 minutes (2" approx), your reticle covers 8" at 400 yds.

You don't provide enough information to make intelligent recommendations, other than the usual- "I use blah/blah".
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  #7  
Old 04-30-2017, 08:28 AM
shovelstrokeed shovelstrokeed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntershooter View Post
Not familiar with your "Del-Ton Evolution AR". Also you mention "shooting to 400 yds".

What are your accuracy requirements (smallest target at 400 yds.)?
Does your gun have a free float rail?
Will you want, or run, a Mil reticle or ranging reticle scope?

I have no problem shooting 10" steel at 400 yds. with a 1-6 Trijicon "Accupoint" (mil reticle), but that's about my limit.
If the reticle subtends 2 minutes (2" approx), your reticle covers 8" at 400 yds.

You don't provide enough information to make intelligent recommendations, other than the usual- "I use blah/blah".
I use a 2 MOA dot on my Aimpoint Comp M4, I have it adjusted so that POI is just above the dot at 300 yards. I have quick target acquisition and can score hits on clays at 400 yards plus with no issues in a calm wind. I use it as a red dot for most targets under that but use the edge of the dot for longer distances, just like a set of cross hairs.
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  #8  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:36 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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You did not mention a budget.

So I would go with a good sling, and Atlas bipod, A Schmidt and Bender short dot. And get a case of either Black hills or Hornady TAP ammo and practice a lot. That should cover it.
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  #9  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:03 AM
1saxman 1saxman is online now
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I made one a few years ago before I knew about the SDMR. Its a CMMG 16", chrome-lined, 1:7, modified HBAR (RECCE profile), mid-length gas barrel in an A3 upper with M16 BCG. The lower has an ALG-ACT trigger set and an M16A1 stock with original rifle buffer, tube and spring. It has a TA01 4x ACOG, a shaved front sight and a MOE middy hand guard. Shoots great and I still like it as it is. Even tho I could never even get close to breaking even on it, it doesn't matter because its simply the sweetest AR in every way; ultra-smooth cycling, reliable function and accurate. It likes IMI 77 gr 'Razor Core'. Sometimes you make one that just turns out great and this is one of those.
My original idea was essentially the same as the SDMR - a better 'rifle' than the ordinary issue but not intended to be a 'sniper' substitute; something to use to pick off targets of opportunity at a little farther range than the M4 guys. My problem is I don't have but a 100-yard range available to me so I can't practice at 2-3 hundred.
BTW, those 'emergency sights' on top of the ACOG are sighted in at 50 yds. The front blade has a Tritium insert.


Last edited by 1saxman; 04-30-2017 at 12:08 PM.
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2017, 12:49 PM
dieseltech dieseltech is offline
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Any heavy barreled AR with a 4 to 6 power scope should fulfill that role. If you're a good enough shot.

For personal reasons I do not care to talk about I will not go further into the DMR vs. Sniper.
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  #11  
Old 04-30-2017, 12:58 PM
Raiderfan001 Raiderfan001 is offline
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A good budget 1-6 would be a Vortex Strike Eagle. With a higher budget a Vortex Razor HD is nice as well. I own both and would recommend them.
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  #12  
Old 04-30-2017, 01:11 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter1201 View Post
Several years ago I bought a Del-Ton Evolution AR in FDE. It has been sitting in the box, unfired for over 3 years. I now am wanting to set it up as a Designated Marksman's rifle, with 400 meters as the max range. What do you guys recommend doing to accomplish this?

Whats your budget and accuracy requirement?
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2017, 01:40 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shovelstrokeed View Post
I use a 2 MOA dot on my Aimpoint Comp M4, I have it adjusted so that POI is just above the dot at 300 yards. I have quick target acquisition and can score hits on clays at 400 yards plus with no issues in a calm wind. I use it as a red dot for most targets under that but use the edge of the dot for longer distances, just like a set of cross hairs.
Same. This is exactly what I was referring to in my post.
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Old 04-30-2017, 01:59 PM
SVTohio SVTohio is offline
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Not a specially set up as a "DMR" per say but this build was made to hunt ground hogs. The Nikon 3-9x seems perfect for this role. Also the SSA-E makes for a crisp trigger .




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  #15  
Old 04-30-2017, 03:00 PM
huntershooter huntershooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shovelstrokeed View Post
I use a 2 MOA dot on my Aimpoint Comp M4, I have it adjusted so that POI is just above the dot at 300 yards. I have quick target acquisition and can score hits on clays at 400 yards plus with no issues in a calm wind. I use it as a red dot for most targets under that but use the edge of the dot for longer distances, just like a set of cross hairs.
If you can regularly hit a 4.3" clay target at 400 (and further) yds. with a RD equipped AR (given calm winds), you sir, are one HELL of a shot as well as having an amazingly accurate rifle- MOA @ 400 yds.
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  #16  
Old 04-30-2017, 03:53 PM
shovelstrokeed shovelstrokeed is offline
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Originally Posted by huntershooter View Post
If you can regularly hit a 4.3" clay target at 400 (and further) yds. with a RD equipped AR (given calm winds), you sir, are one HELL of a shot as well as having an amazingly accurate rifle- MOA @ 400 yds.
Well, the gun is a KAC SR-15 and the ammo used is Hornady 75g match ammo. I do use a bipod for longer range shots and sub MOA is child's play for that particular combo in my gun.
I have another upper for it with an 18" Kreiger bbl and a 3x9 old Leupold that shoots even better.

If I'm really serious about tight groups, I switch to my bolt guns, a 6.5 CM and a 6.5x47 Lapua that shoot bug holes. Actually, other than to confirm zero, I rarely shoot groups, I prefer dot drills. The scopes alone on my bolt guns would buy a pretty nice car.
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:06 PM
dieseltech dieseltech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntershooter View Post
If you can regularly hit a 4.3" clay target at 400 (and further) yds. with a RD equipped AR (given calm winds), you sir, are one HELL of a shot as well as having an amazingly accurate rifle- MOA @ 400 yds.
That or a Marine Rifle Expert.
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  #18  
Old 05-01-2017, 07:14 AM
shovelstrokeed shovelstrokeed is offline
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I fail to see the fuss.
I'll be 75 years old in a couple of months, have had laser corrected eyesight, been shooting a rifle since I was 7. Yes, I qualified expert with a rifle when I was 22 years old.
1 MOA is not really that difficult to hold from a rest with a good rifle and good ammo. The fundamentals of marksmanship don't really change nor do the reasons why one rifle shoots better than another. If the gun has good components and the ammo is consistent, only wind should be your enemy and you can even get pretty good at judging that.
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:56 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by shovelstrokeed View Post
I fail to see the fuss.
I'll be 75 years old in a couple of months, have had laser corrected eyesight, been shooting a rifle since I was 7. Yes, I qualified expert with a rifle when I was 22 years old.
1 MOA is not really that difficult to hold from a rest with a good rifle and good ammo. The fundamentals of marksmanship don't really change nor do the reasons why one rifle shoots better than another. If the gun has good components and the ammo is consistent, only wind should be your enemy and you can even get pretty good at judging that.
1MOA is about the mechanical limit od a good AR15. Service grades can be 4ish MOA...

Assuming the gun IS actually capable of 1MOA, a 4.3" clay is a touch over [email protected] yards. This leaves almost zero margin of errror. Even 77gn 5.56mm bullets are very vulnerable to environmental factors. Expecting and getting 1MOA @400+ from an AR15 in 5.56 requires a very good rifle, a very good shooter, very good ammo, and a little luck... the 5.56mm was never designed or intended to be effective at such ranges, and trying to make it so pushes the physical capabilities of all of the elements involved.

As for an SDM rifle, they're generally 7.62 semi autos, refurbed M14s, the newer EBRs, or AR10s. The purpose and intent is greater reach and effects than offered by the M4/M16. The terminal performance of 5.56 isn't all that @ 400m. 55g ball has about 300 ft/lbs of Ke left at that distance - heavier bullets may performance slightly, but probably not significantly, better...
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:05 AM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
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If you're building it with a budget in mind? I'd suggest picking up an enhanced GI trigger kit from PSA (I've installed a few for friends and they are very slick) and then I would go with a Primary Arms Gen III 1-6x optic with their ACSS reticle. Just my opinion, but it's the best value priced optic with the best reticle, but best is is subjective.

If you are not on a budget? Well, that opens up a plethora of options. Are you trying to reduce PIV (pre-ignition vibration) with a a lower mass hammer or a hammer with a different geometry, are you going to drop in a high dollar trigger group/pack? Are you planning on going off and throw a high dollar Vortex, Nightforce, or Trijicon VCOG up top? Specifics might come into play.

I can personally say that my homebuilt AR using a Del-Ton barrel with a carbine length gas system is capable of 1 MOA or less with the right combination of bullet and optic and ARs are indeed capable of great accuracy. However, this still all depends on what you and your rifle are capable of together.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:42 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by Kodadek View Post
I can personally say that my homebuilt AR using a Del-Ton barrel with a carbine length gas system is capable of 1 MOA or less with the right combination of bullet and optic and ARs are indeed capable of great accuracy. However, this still all depends on what you and your rifle are capable of together.
At what actual (rather than theoretical) range can it hold sub MOA? Its easy to get a 1MOA+ AR @ 100m. I've seen rack grade M4s that can do it. Its easy to expolorate the theory that if its 1MOA at 100, its 1MOA at 1000.... it assumes that the mechanical variances are linear. Maintaining that mechanical accuracy over real distance is another matter. Flaws and margins of error are exponentially greater over distance.

How does it actuallly print at 300, 400, 600m...?
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:44 AM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
At what actual (rather than theoretical) range can it hold sub MOA? Its easy to get a 1MOA+ AR @ 100m. I've seen rack grade M4s that can do it. Its easy to expolorate the theory that if its 1MOA at 100, its 1MOA at 1000.... it assumes that the mechanical variances are linear. Maintaining that mechanical accuracy over real distance is another matter. Flaws and margins of error are exponentially greater over distance.

How does it actuallly print at 300, 400, 600m...?
With custom loads (mine likes 69 grain sierra MatchKing BTHP, it's held right at MOA out to 300 meters and that's the longest range I had available to try it out at and that was from a bench on a day without wind. I'm fully with you for the most part on ARs as DMRs, but it is more than theoretically possible. After I tested it I slapped a Micro back on top of my AR and only recently have I begun to look into adopting variable optics again (when the craze started I almost jumped on a Meopta K-Dot but then I bought an engagement ring...sucks to suck) to my AR and even then I can't imagine using anything that doesn't start at 1X because the wheelhouse of the AR-15 is from close to medium ranges but I can't begrudge someone else for wanting a fun project gun.
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  #23  
Old 05-01-2017, 12:24 PM
Busa Dave Busa Dave is offline
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Wind Wind Wind---what a bunch of "little girls"! The wind is your friend! Learn to use it and it is your friend! I shoot 1k BR and let me tell you there is a whole lot more to shooting long distance than some have mentioned above lol.

When you get Real Good you learn to read mirage! 300 yards is short range. I start my development at 600 yds. For one thing the bt bullets are just getting stable at 300yds.

My builder of all of my rifles sporters and competition and who I also have shot with has a few words here about shooting. http://www.accurateshooter.com/shoot...cal-stringing/ I can email anyone his comprehensive guide to reading the wind and adjusting for it. Most shooters are completely clueless and have no idea why. You cannot shoot and be good at 1k without the use or access to a _____________. And Why?

This one is for the wanna be snipers you BR guys keep you keyboard quiet for a while---you have a 1k target.

Condition 1 at the bench 6bo'clock wind 8 to 10
Condition 2 300 yards 8 o'clock wind 8 to 10
Condition 3 600 yards 8 o'clock wind 8-10
Condition 4 1k berm 11 o'clock wind 8-10

Which of the above conditions is the most critical and how should you deal with it?

Hint = Time
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  #24  
Old 05-01-2017, 12:49 PM
shovelstrokeed shovelstrokeed is offline
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No need to even think about that.
You hold for the wind at the muzzle, you correct for the down range stuff with info from your spotter. You can adjust your hold as needed.
Since wind is rarely constant anywhere over 1000 yards, you have to judge a bit from other cues.
Mirage is the biggest liar out there and it takes a good bit of time and mojo to really judge it. Basically, if I'm seeing mirage at full boil I know I have to dial up a couple of tenths. It can provide a little info on wind down range as well.
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2017, 01:52 PM
Win94ae Win94ae is offline
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400 yards is not that big of a deal, you don't need any special equipment. This is the cheapest defensive rifle I could find, (WASR.) And I use it a lot like a DMR.

Added some inexpensive items to aid in holdover, (ranging reticle,) sight picture acquisition, ($12 cheek-riser thingy,) eye relief, (telescopic stock.)

This is my last 400 yard shot with the rifle.

Good 400 Yard Shot -- Youtube: 37 seconds

That is "one shot, one kill;" with a load that shoots 2.25MOA. That is good enough for 400 yards, with a DMR intention. It is only 400 yards.

But don't misunderstand me; I'd rather have an AR. I'm just saying, "don't over-think this."
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