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  #101  
Old 08-14-2016, 02:38 PM
LW McVay's Avatar
LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busa Dave View Post
He was a smart azz to post what he did but..........
Yes he was. Completely unnecessary as well. I've done nothing to warrant that, only asked that people focus on the battle ahead.

So it comes down to either focusing, following our rules or just simply sticking to the 1911/gun format if you can not do so. I ask very little.
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  #102  
Old 08-14-2016, 02:39 PM
Nathan Nathan is offline
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Alloutdoor.com still not banned....

Frankly I don't care if you ban them, but you made the rules. Are you following them?

I only bring this up to show the fallacy of such statements. Trump has my vote even given his mixed 2A record.
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  #103  
Old 08-14-2016, 02:47 PM
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Noklue3 Noklue3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Alloutdoor.com still not banned....

Frankly I don't care if you ban them, but you made the rules. Are you following them?

I only bring this up to show the fallacy of such statements. Trump has my vote even given his mixed 2A record.
Can't let it go, huh? Let the staff handle the forum, you take care of yourself. Don't go quoting things to us. YOU are the guest here.

Clear?
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  #104  
Old 08-14-2016, 02:50 PM
RichT RichT is offline
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Said it before, and I'll say it one more time, for those who may not have decided yet. While Trump may present some unknowns, and it is true we don't know exactly what he will do as POTUS, we know without any doubt what Hillary and her ilk will do. I have to agree with LW, the Democrats have totally run this country into the ground. This morning when I turned on the news, first story I heard was about folks in Milwaukee burning cars and rioting, excuse me, "protesting". Protesting what? That a police officer had shot a fleeing felon with a rap sheet a mile long, who had a firearm, which he clearly should not have had. With all the laws we have in this country, and especially here in Cali, how is it that gangsta's keep getting their hands on them? And why are people protesting when a cop does his job to protect the innocent? This country is so backward it's not even funny anymore. In Milwaukee county you have a black sheriff condemning the actions of people in his own community. Does that tell you anything? Wake up and smell the coffee folks.
  #105  
Old 08-14-2016, 03:24 PM
AtlasFired AtlasFired is offline
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Originally Posted by AdamG247 View Post
This Nation was built on the principals of Open and unhindered debate. I think we have gotten this wrong. Instead of closing debate, perhaps we should be more focused on dealing with the Offenders whom can not debate in a respectful and polite manner.

Debating among ourselves helps us see our own weaknesses as 2A proponents. Suffocating this exchange will only work to our own detriment in the long run. Shutting our eyes to the issues, weaknesses and potential pitfalls. I am currently working to help the Local GOP Committee develop talking points and Political Action Plans, for what our message needs to be and how to best deliver this message. I have drawn upon this very Forum as an incredible mining tool. There are some remarkable deep thinkers in here. On both sides of the issues! I am sad to see constructive conversation cease. So to will the sharing of ideas, thoughts and talking points. To win this election cycle we Must know our Enemy. We must know how they think and the arguments they will proffer. Essentially putting our heads in the sand, is not the answer.

While I understand the extra strain this has placed on our Admins and in some regards I can related to their decision. I implore them to rethink this total and complete ban. Consider a set of hard and fast Debate Rules that will apply in the 2A section. Anyone who violates them gets an automatic 2 week vacation. No warnings, no hesitation. Make the conversation polite, gentleman like and respectful.

It was never the debate that was the problem. It was particular individuals who confused debating with Street Fighting.

Perhaps I will be treated to my own 2 week vacation for sharing my opinion. I hope not, and I think this is the best Moderated Forum on the Internet. I support this Forum with my pocketbook and will continue to do so, vacation or not.

But I felt compelled to point out that we may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This will be my last word on this subject should the Admins stay the course. If however, they decide to reconsider I offer my services to the Admins in developing "2A Debating Rules" or the like.
I agree and feel compelled to share support on this perspective. We talk a lot about not compromising when it comes to 2A rights, but forum leadership has taken a hardline position of silencing critical analysis and open debate about Donald Trump. VERY much their prerogative, yet just a bit undemocratic, which is ironic all things considered.

If Trump ends up faltering on this bid to secure Second Amendment rights as it pertains to Congressional legislation and the SCOTUS, by either failing once in office or fatally screwing up his chances to actually get elected, the voices of certain pro-gun elements (who voted for him) will have been silenced and shut out of the 1911forum record of discourse. That said, I'll say no more on this. I do sincerely appreciate and respect the forum (with both my posts and my paycheck).
  #106  
Old 08-14-2016, 03:46 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
Bill Moyers has done some great essays on money in politics corruption
in his time, but this might be his finest work to date.

http://bulletin.represent.us/outraged-bill-moyers/


Lock, stock, and pork barrel...
Just cannot bring myself to watch your video. Moyers is such a liberal POS and enemy of the Second Amendment that I cannot stand listening to him or looking at him. I bet he doesn't get around to the biggest example of money and corruption in politics which is the Democrat's taking our tax dollars and using them to create and buy the votes of a massive welfare class of deadbeats. Moyers is just as bad if not worse than Hillary Clinton. Surely you can find other commentators to watch. This guy is one of the worst.
  #107  
Old 08-14-2016, 03:57 PM
cavelamb cavelamb is offline
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Well, okay. I can understand that.
But?

Partial transcript...


edit - try it again - with punctuation
Quote:
transcript...




It's as if we're leaning way over the rim of the Grand Canyon and all that's needed is a swift kick in the pants - look out below.

The Predators in Washington are only this far from monopoly control of our government.

They bought the political system lock stock & pork barrel making change from within impossible. That's the real joke.

Sometimes I long for the wit of a jon stewart and stephen colbert. They treat this town is burlesque and with satire and parody show at the disrespect to deserve. We laugh and punch each other on the arm and tweet that the rascals got their just desert. But the last laugh always seems to go to the bold-faced names that populate this town, To them belong the spoils of (this) polluted city.

They get the tax breaks and loopholes the contracts the payoffs.

They fix the system so multi-millionaire hedge fund managers and private equity tycoons pay less of a tax rate on their income than school teachers police and firefighters, secretaries and janitors.

They give subsidies to rich corporate farms and cut food stamps for working people facing hunger.

They remove (the down side?) side of the wall street casinos, bail out the bankers who told Peter the economy fight the modest reforms of Dodd-Frank, prolonged tax havens for multinationals and stick it to consumers while rewarding corporation.

We pay we pay at the grocery store, we pay at the gas pump, we pay the taxes they write off. Our low wage workers pay with sweat and deprivation because this town aloof, self-obsessed, bought often, doing very well thank you, feels no pain.

The journalist who could tell us these things rarely do and some never.

They are blind - simply bedazzled - watch the evening news any evening there, or the Sunday talk shows - listen to the chitchat of the early risers in the morning TV and ask yourself if you're learning anything about how this town actually works.

William Grinder, one of our craft finest reporters to your sin,unbought, despite a long walk in Washington, once said that no one can hope to understand what is driving political behavior without asking the kind of gut-level questions politicians ask themselves in private.

Who are the winners in this matter?

And who are the losers?

Who gets the money and who has to pee?

Who must be heard on this question

And who can be safely ignored?




Perhaps they don't ask these questions because they fear banishment from the parties and perks for the access that passes as seduction in this town.

Or perhaps they don't tell us these things because they fear that if the system were exposed for what it is outraged citizens would descend on this town and tear it apart with their bare hands.

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Last edited by cavelamb; 08-14-2016 at 04:22 PM.
  #108  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:06 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
Well, okay. I can understand that.
But?

Partial transcript...
Sorry but most of that stuff is just Democrat socialist propaganda. Cannot believe you believe it is good. He is basically attacking our free economic system with class envy diatribe because he is what he is, a Democrat socialist.
  #109  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:10 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlasFired View Post
I agree and feel compelled to share support on this perspective. We talk a lot about not compromising when it comes to 2A rights, but forum leadership has taken a hardline position of silencing critical analysis and open debate about Donald Trump. VERY much their prerogative, yet just a bit undemocratic, which is ironic all things considered.
They felt that those discussions were counterproductive to a big cause. I 100% disagree with that assessment but this is not about democracy, or 1A, or my opinion at all. It is about people who own this house making a call on house rules when they felt these rules were needed to be put in place. They are well intended and, even if I personally think they are wrong in thinking that those threads were harmful or divisive, there is nothing here to discuss. Their house, their rules.
  #110  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:18 PM
L.E. L.E. is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Their house, their rules.
Yep. We all have rights. But they're not universal, nor do they pertain in every place. Years ago, on a more local gun forum, I got into a "discussion" with a member who was explaining all of the 2A rights he thought he had in my home. He took exception to my statement that they were non-existent.
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  #111  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:23 PM
cavelamb cavelamb is offline
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
Sorry but most of that stuff is just Democrat socialist propaganda. Cannot believe you believe it is good. He is basically attacking our free economic system with class envy diatribe because he is what he is, a Democrat socialist.

I added punctuation to help make it more readable.

Try again.

Because I don't think he is saying what you think he is saying.
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  #112  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:42 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
I added punctuation to help make it more readable.

Try again.

Because I don't think he is saying what you think he is saying.
Made no difference. I know what he is saying. Moyers is a socialist. He defends Saul Alinsky and calls him a good American. Use that as a reference. I am not going to address all of his items but I could. He misses the actual point of it all which is an all powerful out of control federal government that invites abuse. His solution is he wants even more government which of course means he is a huge gun control advocate also.
  #113  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:45 PM
cavelamb cavelamb is offline
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OKAY, HT.
I'll let it go.

But your prejudices are leading you astray here.
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  #114  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:54 PM
Tootie Tootie is offline
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I just don't get it! This category is "2A Legal & Political News ONLY." To my way of thinking it should always have been "2A Legal." Anything political should never have been included. How many times did your granddad or dad tell you that we don't discuss religion or politics. They are too personal and private to open to people you don't know. They're bad enough with friends and family.

Maybe it's fair to say there was a screw up to ever allow this discourse. I found it difficult on many occasions to separate the political opinions of some members from the respect I had for their knowledge of my favorite firearms. I oftentimes found myself pissed off. And that shouldn't have happened. My interest is in the knowledge members have, and can share, about the 1911. My vote is to eliminate the "Political News ONLY' portion of the category permanently.
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  #115  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:54 PM
1toughdog 1toughdog is offline
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When my parents had their "Card Club" group at our house, my father's voice often rose to the occasion during the card game: "My house, my rules"!

But seriously there is only one candidate in November and if Mr. Trump loses, and she chooses 1, 2, or 3 Supreme Court Justices - they are there for 30 plus years and 2A will be in the rear view mirror. Wake up! Scalia is gone (RIP) Ginsburg could go any day - Kennedy is 79, Breyer is 77, Thomas 67, Alito 65! The picture should be pretty clear!

It's time to unite 2A voters! And thank you LW McVay!

LJH - Conservatives believe every day is the 4th of July - democrats/liberals believe every day is April 15 and there is no end to free stuff paid for by working taxpayers.
  #116  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:56 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
OKAY, HT.
I'll let it go.

But your prejudices are leading you astray here.
Not really. You just have to first read him in the context of knowing what he is. He wants higher taxes, more welfare handouts, and bigger more powerful government. He is what he is, a socialist.
  #117  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:58 PM
cavelamb cavelamb is offline
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I just read what he actually said.
Without assuming I already know.

That transcript does NOT sound like a socialist.
It sounds like a pissed off American citizen.
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  #118  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:59 PM
diadem diadem is offline
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I think the mandate “Play for our team or get out of our locker room” was clear and appropriate. I am amazed at the people that still just don’t get it. Their overwhelming compulsion to prophesize overrides ordinary dignity and common sense.
  #119  
Old 08-14-2016, 05:08 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tootie View Post
I just don't get it! This category is "2A Legal & Political News ONLY." To my way of thinking it should always have been "2A Legal." Anything political should never have been included. .
Just my opinion, but I don't think that it is possible to separate Legal/Constitutional, 2A or otherwise from Political.

Part of the problem is that we have Politicians who for the most part are Lawyers and thus they have a self perpetuating job when in Office.

Thus, "Legal" and "Constitutional" becomes intertwined with ""Politics".

As I said, just my opinion.


I for one support the idea of being more courteous in our discourse on this portion of the Forum rather than abolishing this part of the Forum.

I'm hopeful that will be the case.
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Last edited by NonHyphenAmerican; 08-14-2016 at 05:24 PM.
  #120  
Old 08-14-2016, 05:22 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavelamb View Post
I just read what he actually said.
Without assuming I already know.

That transcript does NOT sound like a socialist.
It sounds like a pissed off American citizen.
Everything we read must be read in context to discern the meaning. Like I said I could go down the list and prove it. Moyers does not want less government. He wants more of it and more taxes for those who work and more welfare for those who don't. If you know what he believes and then go down your list, you will have a better understanding. His understanding of the 2008 financial meltdown, based on his comment in your list, was it was caused by George Bush and greedy bankers. The truth is the roots of it were a misguided Democrat attempt (Carter and Clinton) to allow people who don't qualify for loans to get those loans anyway which of course resulted in massive defaults. Moyers had no problem with having government force banks to make those loans at all. He just blames the banks when it all turned to crap. That is just one example.
  #121  
Old 08-14-2016, 05:46 PM
Tootie Tootie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
Everything we read must be read in context to discern the meaning. Like I said I could go down the list and prove it. Moyers does not want less government. He wants more of it and more taxes for those who work and more welfare for those who don't. If you know what he believes and then go down your list, you will have a better understanding. His understanding of the 2008 financial meltdown, based on his comment in your list, was it was caused by George Bush and greedy bankers. The truth is the roots of it were a misguided Democrat attempt (Carter and Clinton) to allow people who don't qualify for loans to get those loans anyway which of course resulted in massive defaults. Moyers had no problem with having government force banks to make those loans at all. He just blames the banks when it all turned to crap. That is just one example.
It didn't end with home loans either. I bought a brand new GMC and I never even filled out a credit check form. The bank simply wrote me a check.
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  #122  
Old 08-14-2016, 05:51 PM
silvercorvette silvercorvette is offline
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People that say that they aren't voting for Trump need to understand that lesson.
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  #123  
Old 08-14-2016, 05:53 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Okay guys, the point has been made so we don't need to continue with this. Please remember what was said and also what we need to do in November. Whether you hold your nose while doing so is up to you.
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  #124  
Old 08-16-2016, 08:51 AM
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LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Bump
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