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  #1  
Old 08-24-2013, 07:18 PM
Old Grumpy Old Grumpy is offline
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Small Rifle primers

I would like to reload a small trial batch of .223 Remington but do not have any small rifle primers. I know small rifle magnum primers are often recommended with certain powders while some only need standard small rifle primers.

I know small pistol magnum primers will have a slightly thicker cup than standard small pistol primers and I expect the same may be true with small rifle primers. There will also be a slight difference in compound.

Has anyone ever used small pistol magnum primers in the .223 Rem? If the load called for standard small rifle primers would the small magnum pistol primers work in a pinch?

Just wondering
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  #2  
Old 08-24-2013, 08:02 PM
rdinak rdinak is offline
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You CAN NOT use any type of pistol primer in a rifle round. It is confusing to read about guys using small rifle primers in pistol rounds being perfectly safe.

Rifle rounds operate at much higher operating pressures and require a harder cup that will not expand in the same fashion that a pistol primer would. If you are loading for an AR15, some use an even harder military type primer to prevent slam fires.

Great Question-but PLEASE don even try any brand of pistol primer in .223.
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  #3  
Old 08-24-2013, 08:26 PM
redleg1013 redleg1013 is offline
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not only that but pistol primers are around .010" shorter than rifle primers; due to the heavier cup. One thing I hate is a too deeply seated primer.
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  #4  
Old 08-24-2013, 08:30 PM
Old Grumpy Old Grumpy is offline
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rdinak, I did a little research into SAAMI pressures and what you said becomes crystal clear. According to SAAMI the maximum pressure for the .223 Remington is 55,000 psi while the .357 Magnum is only 35,000 psi. Quite a difference (20,000 psi).

While the small pistol magnum primer will withstand more pressure than the standard small pistol primer it falls far below the operating pressure of the rifle.


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Old 08-24-2013, 09:18 PM
petejc petejc is offline
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Don't know if you should use them or not but I have to take offense on Redleg1013 post. I miked Remington, Winchester, CCI small rifle and small pistol primers at every angle and they are NOT different sizes. They miked exactly the same diameter, depth and width. Did not find .0001 difference in them. Just for you other guys info.
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  #6  
Old 08-24-2013, 09:20 PM
superdude superdude is offline
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Small rifle and small pistol primers are the same size.

It's the LARGE rifle and pistol primers that are different sizes.
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  #7  
Old 08-24-2013, 09:21 PM
Snapdragon Snapdragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redleg1013 View Post
not only that but pistol primers are around .010" shorter than rifle primers; due to the heavier cup. One thing I hate is a too deeply seated primer.
That is true for large rifle and pistol primers but not for small rifle and pistol primers. Small rifle and pistol primers have the same external dimensions.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:32 PM
petejc petejc is offline
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Thanks for the backup Superdude and Snapdragon....
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  #9  
Old 08-24-2013, 09:38 PM
Tresca Tresca is offline
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The primer situation should be letting up soon. The local Cabelas had tens of thousands of primers including small rifle
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  #10  
Old 08-24-2013, 09:41 PM
Old Grumpy Old Grumpy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tresca View Post
The primer situation should be letting up soon. The local Cabelas had tens of thousands of primers including small rifle
What brands?

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  #11  
Old 08-24-2013, 09:45 PM
Tresca Tresca is offline
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CCI and Federal. Even Remington in small pistol and large pistol.
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  #12  
Old 08-24-2013, 10:24 PM
diver64 diver64 is offline
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Stopped at a LGS today and the shelf was full of Win and CCI primers. I would not buy from them because right after Sandy Hook they jacked up the price on a box of Berrys on the shelf from $60 to $120 and I won't forget. They also had several 8lb jugs of AA2230 for $215. Not even close to me buying that.

Do not sub small pistol for small rifle or large pistol for large rifle. you can go the other way though.
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  #13  
Old 08-24-2013, 11:56 PM
ma96782 ma96782 is offline
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Measurements of a primer cup's thickness are not equal across all of the various manufacturers.

Side by Side/ Brand against Brand……Comparison of Measurements

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

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Please note: the thickness on the Rem 6 1/2 vs the Rem 7 1/2 primers. Both primers are "sm rilfe primers." But, that being said......Rem does NOT recommend that the 6 1/2 primer be used with .223 Rem/5.56mm loads. For that, they recommend the Rem 7 1/2 primer.

IMHO......just get the "correct primer" for what you intend to load.

And, you could maybe find someone to trade your primers with. Just this last month, I traded 500 of my CCI sm rifle primers for some Rem 6 1/2s. The guy I traded with was un-aware that Rem does not recommend that 6 1/2s be used for .223 Rem/5.56mm loads until it was too late.

Yes, I have used (on occasion) sm rifle primers with some pistol loads but, NEVER the other way around. That being said, I have plans to use the Rem 6 1/2s to load some 9mm ammo.

Aloha, Mark

Last edited by ma96782; 08-25-2013 at 12:26 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-25-2013, 07:10 AM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redleg1013 View Post
not only that but pistol primers are around .010" shorter than rifle primers; due to the heavier cup. One thing I hate is a too deeply seated primer.
That's authoritative-sounding, all right, but patently false. The primers are the same size...not so with large pistol/large rifle primers.
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  #15  
Old 08-25-2013, 11:19 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Small pistol primers for .223 Remington loads

If a person wanted to make reduced powder loads for the .223 Remington, as long as the pressure doesn't exceed 35,000 psi, it would be OK to use small magnum pistol primers. This would be easy to do if loading a bolt action .223rifle.

I have shot reduced loads out of center fire rifles using hard cast bullets....the loads never developed over 1200 fps in velocity, and sometimes I had to use kapok in the cartridge after dropping the powder so the powder would stay over the primer area....the kapok was just a filler. I would use larger rifle primers, but when shooting my .300 Win Mag, I always used large magnum rifle primers since the loads that showed the best accuracy were at the top of the max loading recommendations.

However, if you try to use reduced loads in an AR-15, this may create problems with the function since most ARs are gas operated and need a certain amount of pressure to work properly.
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  #16  
Old 08-25-2013, 11:58 AM
Tresca Tresca is offline
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Just be safe and use the proper primer. Primer availability looks like its starting to return to normal levels.
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  #17  
Old 08-25-2013, 01:47 PM
Snapdragon Snapdragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver64 View Post
Do not sub small pistol for small rifle or large pistol for large rifle. you can go the other way though.
You do not want to substitute large rifle for large pistol because they have different external dimensions.
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  #18  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:26 PM
meatsmith meatsmith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Grumpy View Post
Has anyone ever used small pistol magnum primers in the .223 Rem? If the load called for standard small rifle primers would the small magnum pistol primers work in a pinch?
CCI #550 primers (SPM) are the same exact primer as CCI #400 (SR). They are only packaged differently. CCI has confirmed this via email.
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2013, 12:42 AM
soldsco soldsco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapdragon View Post
You do not want to substitute large rifle for large pistol because they have different external dimensions.
Not to mention that substituting any rifle for any pistol is a BAD idea due to the fact that they have different power levels. You WILL get different pressures by doing so. Think about it this way. A large rifle is designed to ignite cartridges such as the .308 Win which is a LOT larger with a LOT more powder than your typical pistol cartridge. That is why the .460 S&W Magnum uses a large rifle primer as it has a LOT of powder on top of it.
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2013, 03:29 AM
Steve4102 Steve4102 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatsmith View Post
CCI #550 primers (SPM) are the same exact primer as CCI #400 (SR). They are only packaged differently. CCI has confirmed this via email.
Do you have a copy of this email?

I do recall a discussion about this several months ago, but I thought the email stated that their SR and their SRM primers were identical as far a "compound" and the only difference was cup thickness.
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  #21  
Old 08-26-2013, 07:02 AM
Ballisticbudda Ballisticbudda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver64 View Post
Stopped at a LGS today and the shelf was full of Win and CCI primers. I would not buy from them because right after Sandy Hook they jacked up the price on a box of Berrys on the shelf from $60 to $120 and I won't forget. They also had several 8lb jugs of AA2230 for $215. Not even close to me buying that.

Do not sub small pistol for small rifle or large pistol for large rifle. you can go the other way though.
Does LGS stand for Local Gouging Shop? That is insane!
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2013, 09:35 AM
MikeRussell MikeRussell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatsmith View Post
CCI #550 primers (SPM) are the same exact primer as CCI #400 (SR). They are only packaged differently. CCI has confirmed this via email.
I have seen the same information regarding SPM/SR primers from CCI. Sorry, can't remember exactly who it was I got the info from, but either way it was "a guy told me that the CCI rep told him it was true." So take it with a grain of salt, as I have not personally tried it myself (I use 41s for 5.56 and 6.8).
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  #23  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:40 AM
meatsmith meatsmith is offline
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The email was several years ago. Email them and ask yourself.
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  #24  
Old 08-26-2013, 04:05 PM
herd48 herd48 is offline
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These threads always seem to get a lot of ink:-)

***BTW Grumpy. I don't know if you're loading for a AR15. If you are, you could load a couple up and test them. I would be checking for firing pin bounce and how much dimple it leaves in the next loaded round when using the pistol primer. Some ars leave more fp dimple than others.

Also check to see if it blows any spent primers.
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Last edited by herd48; 08-26-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2013, 05:25 PM
Old Grumpy Old Grumpy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herd48 View Post
These threads always seem to get a lot of ink:-)

***BTW Grumpy. I don't know if you're loading for a AR15. If you are, you could load a couple up and test them. I would be checking for firing pin bounce and how much dimple it leaves in the next loaded round when using the pistol primer. Some ars leave more fp dimple than others.

Also check to see if it blows any spent primers.
The weapons I would test these loads in would have been a Colt AR15 and a Ruger Model 77. I just received an email from a friend of mine who was able to snag 1k of Winchester SRP for me. Looks like I will be using the recommended primers after all. This might have been one experiment that is best left to the drawing board.

Grumpy
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