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  #1  
Old 02-29-2020, 12:19 AM
goaround28 goaround28 is offline
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We know there never was a debate, but now there's no debate...

We all know the intent of the 2A. Now a little science provides another nail in the coffin of anyone dumb enough to enter into the debate. Especially because it comes from The Atlantic.*

Using powerful computing of 1.2 billion words from 1475 to 1799 AD and unavailable at the time of Heller, a linquistics study in The Atlantic found that while Scalia and Stevens both made interpretational errors in their rulings, "an average citizen of the founding era would likely have understood the phrase keep arms to refer to possessing arms for both military and personal uses."

In addition, they found that "Here, too, an “ordinary citizen” at the time of the founding likely would have understood that the phrase arms, in the context of rights, referred to both militia-based and individual rights."

Ultimately, the Atlantic’s investigation concluded “...we are more convinced by Scalia’s majority opinion than Stevens’s dissent, even though they both made errors in their analysis. Furthermore, linguistic analysis formed only a small part of Scalia’s originalist opus. And the bulk of that historical analysis, based on the history of the common-law right to own a firearm, is undisturbed by our new findings.

Then...once the brother-in-law has digested that...throw in "shall not be infringed."

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/607186/




* "Overall, we rate The Atlantic Left-Center Biased due to editorial positions and High for factual reporting based on excellent sourcing of information. (5/15/2016) Updated (D. Van Zandt 11/24/2018)"

-- Media Bias/Fact Check

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/
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Old 02-29-2020, 01:04 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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I just read about this about 2 hours ago. Interesting. I'm glad they sort of sided with Scalia. But the bottom line is the amendment is about the people, not the malitia.

If you think through what the founders just went through, it becomes crystal clear what they meant.
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  #3  
Old 02-29-2020, 05:25 AM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
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Originally Posted by jamiesaun View Post
If you think through what the founders just went through, it becomes crystal clear what they meant.
Precisely. The whole of the Bill of rights is about protecting the rights of the people and the powers of the state, while limiting the power of the Federal government.

Every word in every Amendment should be interpreted in that light.

Based on that, my interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is:

1) The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed (independent clause, stands alone)
2) The states are free (implied)
3) The states have the power to protect their own security (implied)
4) The states have the power to raise a militia (implied)
5) The states have the power to train (regulate) the militia (implied)
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  #4  
Old 02-29-2020, 09:38 AM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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HOWEVER, the dems largely ignore the constitution, & aren't about limiting the power of the govt.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:10 AM
havanajim havanajim is online now
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Linguistic studies are fine, and even interesting. However, one need only read the letters between the Founders, and the other documents written by them, to understand what they 'meant' when they wrote the 2A. But then again, reading comprehension went out the door with penmanship a couple of decades ago in our beloved Gov't schools!
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:14 AM
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I always laugh when I hear anti-gunners say that the Second Amendment merely gives people the right to join the army. Umm, in communist North Korea you also have the right to join the army... in fact it's mandatory. Same with the old Soviet Union, or any other despotic nation for that matter. The 2A gave people the right to be armed against threats to their freedom, either individually or from threats to their homeland.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:58 AM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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I appreciate the linguistic study - that the hoplophobes may avail themselves of it. But the Declaration of Independence is illustrative in this same (linguistic) sense as well: "We hold these truths to be self-evident."


And that I have, vis-a-vis the 2A, ever since I first read it.
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Old 02-29-2020, 12:06 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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I read the article earlier this morning. Glad someone posted it. What I found interesting is that both Scalia and Stevens had made errors, but Scalia's interpretation was more correct. If anyone remembers, Stevens, the old coot, was blasting the Heller decision until the very end (Died not too long ago).

The other thing I thought was completely lacking in the study, was the use of the phrase, "Well Regulated", which in the minds of the totalitarian minded gun grabber means that the government has the right to "Regulate" militia, as in restrict or pass laws controlling a militia.

I see that misinterpretation all the time by the leftists.

But the use of that phrase "Well Regulated" during the revolutionary days and well into the mid 1800's meant in good working order, meaning that essentially in order for there to be a functional civilian militia, it was essential that arms would be available to the people. This meant civilians must have arms to keep, practice and train with, in the event that they are mustered to defend the security of their community.

If they can do a scientific study of how the term "well regulated" was used back in those days then I think the findings will be the last nail in the coffin against further unconstitutional firearms regulation, because the term had a specific meaning in the old days which seems to be lost to these knucklehead democrats.
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Old 02-29-2020, 12:48 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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Also, be aware that the Original punctuation of the Second Amendment only had ONE COMMA, in the middle, after "State" - making the two clauses meanings crystal clear to any English Literate Individual. The extra commas were added later - possibly to cloud the meaning for the gun grabbers.

And yes, "Well Regulated" has nothing to do with regulations - like a "Well Regulated" Clock, a well regulated Militia is well trained and knows "How to do Business", most efficently and with deadly (well trained) ability.....CC
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  #10  
Old 02-29-2020, 12:53 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Regardless!

The God given right to self preservation both precedes, and supersedes any right written down on any paper or parchment by the hand of man. Thank you very much!
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  #11  
Old 02-29-2020, 04:01 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I always laugh when I hear anti-gunners say that the Second Amendment merely gives people the right to join the army. Umm, in communist North Korea you also have the right to join the army... in fact it's mandatory. Same with the old Soviet Union, or any other despotic nation for that matter. The 2A gave people the right to be armed against threats to their freedom, either individually or from threats to their homeland.
People often forget that the founders weren't too thrilled about the idea of a standing army. Many figured an armed populace could remain free, and be called upon to defend the homeland when needed. The second Militia act of 1792 is a good example of this mindset.
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Old 02-29-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiesaun View Post
I just read about this about 2 hours ago. Interesting. I'm glad they sort of sided with Scalia. But the bottom line is the amendment is about the people, not the malitia.

If you think through what the founders just went through, it becomes crystal clear what they meant.
IF you read what Thomas Jefferson and John Adams wrote after the Bill of Rights you will find what they MEANT by the 2nd Amendment. Liberals today just want to rewrite history!!! NO.
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  #13  
Old 02-29-2020, 07:58 PM
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People often forget that the founders weren't too thrilled about the idea of a standing army. Many figured an armed populace could remain free, and be called upon to defend the homeland when needed. The second Militia act of 1792 is a good example of this mindset.
The Founding Fathers distrusted standing armies because they had (and still have) a bad habit of staging coups and overthrowing governments. An armed population was a hedge against this sort of thing happening to the new republic they created.

Of course none of this matters to the anti-gunners, because changing the government to suit their socialist ideals is the whole point.
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Old 02-29-2020, 08:19 PM
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While interesting and positive for us I'd apply a more common sense approach. Do we suppose that men who used guns to overthrow their existing government would prohibit future generations from doing the same? Of course not, but then common sense doesn't apply to those who push gun control.
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:35 AM
jamiesaun jamiesaun is offline
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The Founding Fathers distrusted standing armies because they had (and still have) a bad habit of staging coups and overthrowing governments. An armed population was a hedge against this sort of thing happening to the new republic they created.

Of course none of this matters to the anti-gunners, because changing the government to suit their socialist ideals is the whole point.
Yeah, until they get their way. Then all the squeaky wheels will be the first to get the grease.
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:38 AM
Old Grey Hare Old Grey Hare is online now
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My problem with all this is numbers can be bent to show whatever you want, and the Left is very good at changing the meaning of words.

Master manipulators, the lot of them. How does one win against this?

The first thing that needs to get fixed is the schools. What they're teaching these days is alarming.
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:45 AM
kwo51 kwo51 is offline
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My problem is a military style police .The public is out gunned and this was the fear of our founders . Oppressive government . Sanders style . LEOS need to have a swat team they just need to be tightly controlled.
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Old 03-01-2020, 12:53 PM
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Truth, facts and reason have no place in the leftist mind. The 2nd Amendment is a threat to their power and they will never agree with the correct meaning despite anything we bring to the argument.

If we could use time travel to transport the Founding Fathers here to explain it to them they would be shouted down with calls of racism and other words of the week.
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:01 PM
SpringerXD SpringerXD is offline
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I always laugh when I hear anti-gunners say that the Second Amendment merely gives people the right to join the army.
Anti-gunners, like all other liberals, are idiots.

And when someone tells me that the 2nd Amendment only refers to muskets, I say, "Fine. Then the 1st Amendment only refers to quill pens."
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:43 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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...
And when someone tells me that the 2nd Amendment only refers to muskets, I say, "Fine. Then the 1st Amendment only refers to quill pens."
That sir is an excellent point. Especially nowadays with the internet, social media and private websites and the ability to self-publish any drivel any idiot can conjure up. I will hereby adopt that retort next time I argue with a gun-grabbing Democrat.
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Old 03-01-2020, 02:38 PM
Old Grey Hare Old Grey Hare is online now
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My problem is a military style police .The public is out gunned and this was the fear of our founders . Oppressive government . Sanders style . LEOS need to have a swat team they just need to be tightly controlled.
Mmmm I wonder if that's true -- I would like to think the number of armed Americans -- right this second -- outnumber the total number of LEOs, starting with Mayberry and ending with the fully-militarized police of Chicag, NY, etc.

I do find it disturbing, though -- was a time when a soldier was identifiable by uniform, helmet and rifle. A policeman was identifiable by the blue uniform, the hat, the pistol belt, and the pistol. And the other doodads.

But now, yeah -- too many cops look like soldiers and are armed like soldiers.
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  #22  
Old 03-02-2020, 12:49 PM
goaround28 goaround28 is offline
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Originally Posted by Old Grey Hare View Post
My problem with all this is numbers can be bent to show whatever you want, and the Left is very good at changing the meaning of words.

The corollary to which is:
"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics"



But two can play that game



Quote:
Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
But the use of that phrase "Well Regulated" during the revolutionary days and well into the mid 1800's meant in good working order...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
And yes, "Well Regulated" has nothing to do with regulations - like a "Well Regulated" Clock, a well regulated Militia is well trained and knows "How to do Business"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsf View Post
While interesting and positive for us I'd apply a more common sense approach. Do we suppose that men who used guns to overthrow their existing government would prohibit future generations from doing the same? Of course not, but then common sense doesn't apply to those who push gun control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
And when someone tells me that the 2nd Amendment only refers to muskets, I say, "Fine. Then the 1st Amendment only refers to quill pens."

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Old 03-02-2020, 06:07 PM
Riverpigusmc Riverpigusmc is offline
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Police are civilians, and need to realize that fact and act as such
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Old 03-02-2020, 06:19 PM
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LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Police are civilians, and need to realize that fact and act as such
Who says they don't?
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Old 03-02-2020, 06:37 PM
goaround28 goaround28 is offline
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Originally Posted by Riverpigusmc View Post
Police are civilians, and need to realize that fact and act as such

I know where you're going. But by definition:

civilian
[ si-vil-yuh n ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR civilian ON THESAURUS.COM
noun

a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/civilian
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