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  #76  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:41 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by mdell49 View Post
I made the suggestion in an earlier post and it seemed to have been ignored. Simply enforce the laws currently on the books and when I say enforce I am suggesting with the same fervor that we as a society have gone after those who would drive while under the influence. Passing new laws does little or nothing to deter crime without enforcement

Seems to be one of the most popular arguments against gun control laws. However I'm not sure those having problems with gun laws had the same issue when they made the laws with regards to drinking while driving or even texting. Seems like these laws get pretty wide support.
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  #77  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:44 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Seems to be one of the most popular arguments against gun control laws. However I'm not sure those having problems with gun laws had the same issue when they made the laws with regards to drinking while driving or even texting. Seems like these laws get pretty wide support.
But unlike possessing firearms, drinking and texting while driving are not constitutional rights.
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  #78  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:44 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
Then read the study and look at the data they analyzed. It should be presented with the published journal article.

Here’s a link to the article to download and read.

https://pediatrics.aappublications.o...83283.full.pdf


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That article is nonsense the minute it defines a child, up to age 21.

Maybe they need to do a study of 15-21 year olds social skills, internet habits and see how many end up with problems in adulthood.
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  #79  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:51 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
But unlike possessing firearms, drinking and texting while driving are not constitutional rights.
Yeah and then somehow they made it illegal to yell fire in a theatre.
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  #80  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:55 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Yeah and then somehow they made it illegal to yell fire in a theatre.
And verbally threatening someone too. Those two examples overlap with other things such as being an infringement on other people's rights. Yelling fire in a dark crowded theater for example causes harm to others. Whose rights and what rights related to others are violated if I legally purchase a firearm?
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  #81  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:59 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
And verbally threatening someone too. Those two examples overlap with other things such as being an infringement on other people's rights. Yelling fire in a dark crowded theater for example causes harm to others. Whose rights and what rights related to others are violated if I legally purchase a firearm?
So your in favor of someone who's known to be abusive and seriously mentally troubled to legally purchase a firearm?
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  #82  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:05 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
So your in favor of someone who's known to be abusive and seriously mentally troubled to legally purchase a firearm?
I think someone who is clearly abusive and/or seriously mentally ill in a dangerous way that would prevent them from buying a gun should already be incarcerated or institutionalized. The irony here is we are now passing laws letting violent people out of prison while wanting to pass gun control for people who have done nothing wrong. Just like the kid in Broward County who shot up the school. Police called to his home like 20 times and never arrested?
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  #83  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:07 AM
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TominMO TominMO is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
1. Part of the issue with even having any discussion is that some people make so many assumptions about things that don't even exist in the first place.

2. You know, watch out the boogie man is out to get you.
1. What does this mean?

2. What does this mean?

Sounds like you are just tossing out a quick, pointless comment to my post #71. How about some actual intelligent discussion?
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  #84  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:10 AM
GBertolet GBertolet is offline
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There are two issues, I have not seen mentioned. First the background check fee is a real money maker for dealers, often charging $50. Depending on where you live, and who you know as a dealer, can affect the cost. A substantial expense.

Secondly, when a background check is performed by a licensed dealer, a form 4473 must be filled out. The Democrats and the big government people, would like nothing better that getting all firearms in a data base, listing who you are, where you live, and what firearms you own, for some nefarious future purpose.

Buying new or used firearms from a dealer, you are stuck with this already, but expanding it to all, is just harassment. The government cannot stop the drugs, why would anyone seriously believe they can stop the criminals from getting guns.

Last edited by GBertolet; 08-08-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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  #85  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:12 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
I think someone who is clearly abusive and/or seriously mentally ill in a dangerous way that would prevent them from buying a gun should already be incarcerated or institutionalized. The irony here is we are now passing laws letting violent people out of prison while wanting to pass gun control for people who have done nothing wrong. Just like the kid in Broward County who shot up the school. Police called to his home like 20 times and never arrested?
Ok, how and more importantly where exactly would you put them? In large part I believe people are being released early because we don't have enough room.


So in the meantime because they are not institutionalized should they be able to legally buy a firearm?


By the way I forget the actual outcome on the Broward County thing but vaguely remember they couldn't legally do anything.
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  #86  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:15 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Ok, how and more importantly where exactly would you put them? In large part I believe people are being released early because we don't have enough room.


So in the meantime because they are not institutionalized should they be able to legally buy a firearm?
Well, if we don't have room in our prisons right now for the people who break the law, what is the point of passing more laws?
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  #87  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:18 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
1. What does this mean?

2. What does this mean?

Sounds like you are just tossing out a quick, pointless comment to my post #71. How about some actual intelligent discussion?

That's my point. I believe most of your comment was more about beliefs which you have which have no basis in fact.

I believe the bogie man is out to get me.

They could do this or they could do that.


Well they could, but then again I'm not even sure anyone but you mentioned most of these things to begin with.
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  #88  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:23 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
Well, if we don't have room in our prisons right now for the people who break the law, what is the point of passing more laws?
Good point.

Options

1. Eliminate all laws and completely eliminate all incarceration, police, FBI, judges, and any other associated or related expenditures.
2. Increase the national debt and build more prisons.
3. Deport all criminals
4. Prison reform


Did I miss anything?
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  #89  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:26 AM
Akbowman Akbowman is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
The. Whole. Reason. To. Invent. Firearms. Was. To. Create. More. Efficient. Killing. Machines. That is what we call dangerous, ma’am or sir.
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It is absolutely impossible for a gun to be dangerous. It is an inanimate collection of steel and plastic, assembled into a specific form. By your logic knives are also dangerous, as are many other tools capable of inflicting serious bodily harm or death. It is always and unfailingly the emotional being using the tool that is dangerous!
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  #90  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:28 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Good point.

Options

1. Eliminate all laws and completely eliminate all incarceration, police, FBI, judges, and any other associated or related expenditures.
2. Increase the national debt and build more prisons.
3. Deport all criminals
4. Prison reform


Did I miss anything?
I think if we actually had a serious justice system that dealt harshly with career criminals, it would ultimately result in fewer people breaking the law. Once we moved away from prison as punishment in favor of reforming and brought race into it, we turned the cities over to the criminals. There are people out there who have committed multiple violent felonies who get a couple of years in prison before returning to a life of crime. We should be looking at ways to deter crime with real punishment instead of punishing law abiding people. That seemed to work better.
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  #91  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:30 AM
RichG RichG is offline
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
It amazes me how gullible people with no critical thinking skills will fall for anything they see in print, as long as it falls in line with their preconceived ideas.


So read the article and criticize it!


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  #92  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:31 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
So read the article and criticize it!


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I did. Maybe you should try reading the responses.
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  #93  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:32 AM
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TominMO TominMO is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
That's my point. I believe most of your comment was more about beliefs which you have which have no basis in fact.

I believe the bogie man is out to get me.

They could do this or they could do that.

Well they could, but then again I'm not even sure anyone but you mentioned most of these things to begin with.
[Sarcasm alert]

Right, that's why I gave all those actual examples related to the facts about gun ownership in Hawaii, and the IRS abuses of power.

[End sarcasm alert]

Points I didn't think to make, until reading the new AZ thread:
1. Red flag laws are set up to be de facto confiscation, since the guns are taken away immediately and you have to prove you are "worthy" to own a gun. Guilty until proven innocent.
2. For this reason alone, such laws should make it to the SCOTUS on the basis of unconstitutionality; i.e. right to keep/bear arms shall not be infringed, and violation of due process.

Not to mention the guarantee that A Certain Political Party will abuse this new legal reality to the hilt. They are and have always been the party of oppression and control, since before the Civil War.

Last edited by TominMO; 08-08-2019 at 10:36 AM.
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  #94  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:35 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
[Sarcasm alert]

Right, that's why I gave all those actual examples related to the facts about gun ownership in Hawaii, and the IRS abuses of power.

[End sarcasm alert]

Points I didn't think to make, until reading the new AZ thread:
1. Red flag laws are set up to be de facto confiscation, since they are taken away immediately and you have to prove you are "worthy" to own a gun. Guilty until proven innocent.
2. For this reason alone, such laws should make it to the SCOTUS on the basis of unconstitutionality; i.e. right to keep/bear arms shall not be infringed.

Not to mention the guarantee that A Certain Political Party will abuse this new legal reality to the hilt. They are and have always been the party of oppression and control, since before the Civil War.
Yeah, but whatever facts you might have were outnumbered with beliefs that simply have no basis in fact.
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  #95  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:39 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
I think if we actually had a serious justice system that dealt harshly with career criminals, it would ultimately result in fewer people breaking the law. Once we moved away from prison as punishment in favor of reforming and brought race into it, we turned the cities over to the criminals. There are people out there who have committed multiple violent felonies who get a couple of years in prison before returning to a life of crime. We should be looking at ways to deter crime with real punishment instead of punishing law abiding people. That seemed to work better.

Not sure that would be all it would take. Besides a majority of criminals will eventually return to civilian life at some point or another and if there is no rehabilitation then what exactly does that leave you with.

Whatever the issues it seems the US does this very badly.

I don't think contracting out makes it any better.
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  #96  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:42 AM
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TominMO TominMO is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Yeah, but whatever facts you might have were outnumbered with beliefs that simply have no basis in fact.
OK fine. I've read all your postings in this thread, and have concluded there is no reasoning with you. Coupla beers short of a sixpack. Have a nice day.
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  #97  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:44 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Not sure that would be all it would take. Besides a majority of criminals will eventually return to civilian life at some point or another and if there is no rehabilitation then what exactly does that leave you with.

Whatever the issues it seems the US does this very badly.

I don't think contracting out makes it any better.
The recidivism rate for prisoners is astronomical so the reform strategy was just one more liberal failure. The point here is if we won't punish criminals then why the hell are we trying to punish law abiding citizens with more laws and controls?
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  #98  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:00 AM
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TominMO TominMO is offline
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The recidivism rate for prisoners is astronomical so the reform strategy was just one more liberal failure. The point here is if we won't punish criminals then why the hell are we trying to punish law abiding citizens with more laws and controls?
How about long mandatory minimums for violent offenses, and no exceptions? To save money, stick 'em in tents like Sheriff Joe Arpaio did. Federally-owned land in the SW can be used; the Feds own almost all of NV anyway. The states can transfer the convicts to this facility and pay the upkeep for their prisoner, which would be miniscule compared to maintaining an actual prison structure in their own state. (This could also help with overcrowding of state prisons.) It could be geographically located in an area easy to guard, such as a canyon. Sensors would help to minimize the actual guards needed on patrol. One administrative building with visitor center, health clinic, etc.

Trump would get it done cheaply and ahead of schedule!

BTW, don't we have all these FEMA camps all over the place.....? Maybe some of them would be suitable.

Last edited by TominMO; 08-08-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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  #99  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:00 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is offline
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The recidivism rate for prisoners is astronomical so the reform strategy was just one more liberal failure. The point here is if we won't punish criminals then why the hell are we trying to punish law abiding citizens with more laws and controls?
I was never of the belief that laws were for the law abiding for the most part. You don't have to have a law on the books that punishes me for murder. I have no intention of murdering anyone. Now there maybe some who would commit some crime where the law prevents them from doing so and I've seen this type of behavior as well. If not for some guideline some people would do it but because it exists but because the price is too high if they get caught they will not. Unfortunately there are always those who will do whatever and whenever just because that is who they are.

Regardless UBC or Redflag laws will actually force some to follow the law regardless of what they want to do. There may always be other means but it should make it harder for them.


Regardless it does sound as your for punishing criminals which I have no disagreement with, but to do so laws are a necessary evil.

Last edited by Dddrees; 08-08-2019 at 11:04 AM.
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  #100  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:05 AM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Well, if we don't have room in our prisons right now for the people who break the law, what is the point of passing more laws?
In context of guns? If so you dont need more prison space, they will take your guns and put you on 10yr probation.

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Originally Posted by Dddrees View Post
Regardless UBC or Redflag laws will actually force some to follow the law regardless of what they want to do. There may always be other means but it should make it harder for them.
UBC really does not solve the problem at hand.
RF laws are unconstitutional.
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Last edited by 1911_Kid; 08-08-2019 at 11:09 AM.
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