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  #26  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:26 PM
RichG RichG is offline
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Your first chore should be learning what well regulated means at that time in history.


Disagree. The constitution is a living document, hence the amendments.


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  #27  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:28 PM
RichG RichG is offline
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Which means nothing in and of itself.


Again, disagree. There is something meaningful in the numbers.


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  #28  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:29 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
Disagree. The constitution is a living document, hence the amendments.


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Amendments can alter the Constitution but the changing of the meaning of words at the time it was written should not change it.
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  #29  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:32 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
Again, disagree. There is something meaningful in the numbers.


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No there isn't. Do you seriously think UBC's in Vermont or Maine are the reason for fewer gun deaths than in Illinois or Maryland?
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  #30  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:33 PM
RichG RichG is offline
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Amendments can alter the Constitution but the changing of the meaning of words at the time it was written should not change it.

Yeah, a musket was a military style rifle at that time, too. Lump them in with the black rifles?


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  #31  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:36 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Yeah, a musket was a military style rifle at that time, too. Lump them in with the black rifles?


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The wording of the Bill of Rights didn't specify muskets. I assume you also believe Freedom of Expression does not apply to computers or even typewriters?
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  #32  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:36 PM
RichG RichG is offline
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No there isn't. Do you seriously think UBC's in Vermont or Maine are the reason for fewer gun deaths than in Illinois or Maryland?


So you’re ready to throw out some children’s lives so you have 10 fewer minutes in a gun store? That’s a weak argument.

Good night. I’m going to bed.


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  #33  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:38 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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So you’re ready to throw out some children’s lives so you have 10 fewer minutes in a gun store? That’s a weak argument.

Good night. I’m going to bed.


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Good night, Mr. Democrat.
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  #34  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:41 PM
Akbowman Akbowman is online now
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
Well, there’s the compound word ‘well-regulated’ in the 2A, also. Regulation is not an undo infringement, it’s a safeguard. There’s a huge difference. Plus, frozen concentrated OJ is a commodity. Guns are not a commodity. Guns are, by nature, dangerous. Nothing wrong with regulating dangerous things.


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Please show me a dangerous gun??? Put a loaded gun on a table, surround that table with 20 people. Tell that gun to shoot someone. Go ahead, I’ll wait! A gun is nothing more than a simple machine. It is NOT inherently dangerous! It’s the idiot with a booger hook wrapped around the trigger that can be dangerous!
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  #35  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:44 PM
RichG RichG is offline
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Good night, Mr. Democrat.


One more thing. Mad respect for keeping this exchange civil and about the argument, and not making it personal (even though I think you meant the Democrat crack as a burn).


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  #36  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:23 PM
mdell49 mdell49 is offline
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I live in California. I know it sucks but I'm stuck. We have background checks to purchase any firearm. We have background checks to obtain a CCW permit. We have background checks now to purchase ammo. You can't loan a firearm there are RF laws AR's have been restricted in such a manner that if you were to see one that is Ca. compliant you wouldn't recognize it. Limits on magazine capacity. Limits to how many guns can be purchased within a 30 day period. You name it, we have a law against it. Last week at the Gilroy Garlic festival an idiot with a legally purchased SKS shot 3 people who were killed and another 16 injured. That incident started the rampage None of the laws cited saved a single life. Laws only provide punishment for those who violate them they do nothing to protect you. Background checks might have some support if they actually prosecuted those who attempt to purchase firearms that are prohibited from doing so. The data is out there but I have no interest in looking for it right now but the number of people that were actually prosecuted for perjury in filling out the FEDERAL background forms were minimal. How about we start enforcing the laws that are on the books before we pass new ones that we don't do anything about.
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  #37  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:35 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by GT40DOC View Post
Pres. Trump has already said that ANY type of gun law changes will have to go hand and hand with significant immigration changes!! The demoRats are NOT going to go for any immigration changes that the Pres. and the GOP want to have happen. If the demoRats say NO to a combined bill, then the Pres. can tell the American people that the demoRats don't want any gun control OR immigration changes. This Pres. is nobody's fool, and he is usually 3-4 steps ahead of the other side.
Immigration definitely needs to be addressed. But if the Democrats say yes to the deal, are 2A rights really what you to trade for that?
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  #38  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:12 AM
silvermane_1911 silvermane_1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
Well, there’s the compound word ‘well-regulated’ in the 2A, also. Regulation is not an undo infringement, it’s a safeguard. There’s a huge difference. Plus, frozen concentrated OJ is a commodity. Guns are not a commodity. Guns are, by nature, dangerous. Nothing wrong with regulating dangerous things.


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^ You can not be that obtuse, "well regulated" means "what the pros use", hence the term "shall not be infringed", the founders were very intelligent men.
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  #39  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:26 AM
RichG RichG is offline
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Originally Posted by Akbowman View Post
Please show me a dangerous gun??? Put a loaded gun on a table, surround that table with 20 people. Tell that gun to shoot someone. Go ahead, I’ll wait! A gun is nothing more than a simple machine. It is NOT inherently dangerous! It’s the idiot with a booger hook wrapped around the trigger that can be dangerous!


The. Whole. Reason. To. Invent. Firearms. Was. To. Create. More. Efficient. Killing. Machines. That is what we call dangerous, ma’am or sir.

A UBC doesn’t investigate the gun, it investigates the owner of your booger hook to ensure s/he doesn’t get ahold of a dangerous killing machine. The whole point is to reduce the number of unnecessary gun deaths to hopefully zero.

But as long as there are guns there will be killing with guns. So to argue that these laws are not perfect, so why have them—the futility argument—really doesn’t hold water IMHO. The fact is that we only know the deaths that the laws didn’t prevent. We won’t know about the ones they prevented until studies like the one that was published compares places with UBC laws against places without them and we can see a difference in death rates.


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  #40  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:07 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by AustinWiseGuy View Post
Usually much is assumed a president can do. If McConnell and company dig heels in along with our NRA, which is still far from perceived neutered regardless what you might hear, it all ain’t going anywhere. Same goes for creepy Joe coming for the AR. They may talk a lot but there’s a few hurdles to jump before we have to begin planning any alternative strategies.
Agree, Mitch is on the "Hot-Seat" either way as the critical decision maker, POTUS will go along for the ride based on what the Senate/Mitch does either way.

If Mitch hold's his ground, it might not be such a bad thing for POTUS to be able to say he "tried" come election. The most important thing is that he is re-elected, because if the Lefty takes power - it is game over, the impact's will be devastating for 2A and the Constitution/country in total - well beyond what can be imagined and much, much, much, further than anything the republican's can do based on reaction to the 2 M-shootings.
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Last edited by combat auto; 08-08-2019 at 05:33 AM.
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  #41  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:33 AM
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LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akbowman View Post
Please show me a dangerous gun??? Put a loaded gun on a table, surround that table with 20 people. Tell that gun to shoot someone. Go ahead, I’ll wait! A gun is nothing more than a simple machine. It is NOT inherently dangerous! It’s the idiot with a booger hook wrapped around the trigger that can be dangerous!


The. Whole. Reason. To. Invent. Firearms. Was. To. Create. More. Efficient. Killing. Machines. That is what we call dangerous, ma’am or sir.

A UBC doesn’t investigate the gun, it investigates the owner of your booger hook to ensure s/he doesn’t get ahold of a dangerous killing machine. The whole point is to reduce the number of unnecessary gun deaths to hopefully zero.

But as long as there are guns there will be killing with guns. So to argue that these laws are not perfect, so why have them—the futility argument—really doesn’t hold water IMHO. The fact is that we only know the deaths that the laws didn’t prevent. We won’t know about the ones they prevented until studies like the one that was published compares places with UBC laws against places without them and we can see a difference in death rates.


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  #42  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:38 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akbowman View Post
Please show me a dangerous gun??? Put a loaded gun on a table, surround that table with 20 people. Tell that gun to shoot someone. Go ahead, I’ll wait! A gun is nothing more than a simple machine. It is NOT inherently dangerous! It’s the idiot with a booger hook wrapped around the trigger that can be dangerous!
eloquently stated, and so true.

Im not sure what a “universal background check” is. They’ve got databases, if they dont work, thats not our fault.
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  #43  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:43 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is online now
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
eloquently stated, and so true.

Im not sure what a “universal background check” is. They’ve got databases, if they dont work, thats not our fault.
Well if it is not checked, nor is it always updated, it's never going to work.
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  #44  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:12 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Agree, Mitch is on the "Hot-Seat" either way as the critical decision maker, POTUS will go along for the ride based on what the Senate/Mitch does either way.

If Mitch hold's his ground, it might not be such a bad thing for POTUS to be able to say he "tried" come election. The most important thing is that he is re-elected, because if the Lefty takes power - it is game over, the impact's will be devastating for 2A and the Constitution/country in total - well beyond what can be imagined and much, much, much, further than anything the republican's can do based on reaction to the 2 M-shootings.
POTUS already eluded to internet and video games having a causal relationship in these killings. Clearly, parents and schools are NOT reporting or taking action on the very few who display problems which can lead to catastrophe.

If anything, Id rather see them make a “pediatric background check” database or take out the ages 18-21 from that bogus article.

If theyre going to reference an article of nonsensical skewed stats which, by including up to age 21 obviously works in the lefts favor.

What’s needed is social media, internet access, violent video game database for the 18-21 crowd since imho plays a big role in why “little billy” who already may have some issues, finds a new world that eventually can turn them into a killer.
People laugh it off and say it will never happen, but it should. Trial it for 10 years (like the AWB back in ‘94), then come back and report.

Playing semantics with the wording in 2A, as was done in earlier posts, makes for debate, but has been beaten into the ground. WE the people have the right to be armed....period.

Heres my data synopsis gathered and studied meticulously from our amazing forum:

1. The more firearms owned, there is a direct causal inverse relationship for LESS of a need for background checks versus more.....based on the fact that no one here and none of their firearms were used in a mass shooting.....
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  #45  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:49 AM
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I could go with UBC but for two issues:
1. Not before the current system is fixed. Make the current system more robust, if need be, but fix it
2. Not before providing statistically significant data on private sales and transfers showing causation and effect that the UBC would address.
This is something the Dews want, well, get off their a$$ and provide data, otherwise, s——- and the horse they rode in on.
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  #46  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:06 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
POTUS already eluded to internet and video games having a causal relationship in these killings. Clearly, parents and schools are NOT reporting or taking action on the very few who display problems which can lead to catastrophe.

If anything, Id rather see them make a “pediatric background check” database or take out the ages 18-21 from that bogus article.

If theyre going to reference an article of nonsensical skewed stats which, by including up to age 21 obviously works in the lefts favor.

What’s needed is social media, internet access, violent video game database for the 18-21 crowd since imho plays a big role in why “little billy” who already may have some issues, finds a new world that eventually can turn them into a killer.
People laugh it off and say it will never happen, but it should. Trial it for 10 years (like the AWB back in ‘94), then come back and report.

Playing semantics with the wording in 2A, as was done in earlier posts, makes for debate, but has been beaten into the ground. WE the people have the right to be armed....period.

Heres my data synopsis gathered and studied meticulously from our amazing forum:

1. The more firearms owned, there is a direct causal inverse relationship for LESS of a need for background checks versus more.....based on the fact that no one here and none of their firearms were used in a mass shooting.....
There was a guy on fox just now an X-seal or something speaking about this theme more or less --- the "angry young man theme"...He made a lot of good point's about young men being "de-masculated" in today's society, having no purpose, and not being challenged physically. Kinda along the lines of what I posted somewhere about these kid's needing to get off SM and go play some contact sport's...I also think we should have 2 years of mandatory service for both men and women. Yes, I know there are challenges with this, but the overall benefit to our country will far outweigh the negatives...I say this from experience, although I wasn't a delinquent or anything like that, short of being saved by Jesus Christ, the 4 years I spent in the USN did more than anything else to benefit my life and transition a teenager to a young-"man". And I say that even though I hated the rules, regulation's, and chicken-poo (as it was called) with a passion. But the responsibility, the ability to grow in responsibility, the integrating and making friends with people from around the country, being "force" in a sense to get along with other's,, and being "held" responsible for one's action's are benefit's that stay with a person for their entire lives. Also there are very, very, few vet's who are not patriotic and hence appreciate what freedom is all about. They have "skin-in-the-game", they gave a part of their lives to the country (even if they were not in combat). They "Get-it"...I think in total this would all benefit the young men and women of today and our country in-general.
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Last edited by combat auto; 08-08-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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  #47  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:16 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
There was a guy on fox just now an X-seal or something speaking about this theme more or less --- the "angry young man theme"...He made a lot of good point's about young men being "de-masculated" in today's society, having no purpose, and not being challenged physically. Kinda along the lines of what I posted somewhere about these kid's needing to get off SM and go play some contact sport's...I also think we should have 2 years of mandatory service for both men and women. Yes, I know there are challenges with this, but the overall benefit to our country will far outweigh the negatives...I say this from experience, although I wasn't a delinquent or anything like that, short of being saved by Jesus Christ, the 4 years I spent in the USN did more than anything else to benefit my life and transition a teenager to a young-"man". And I say that even though I hated the rules, regulation's, and chicken-poo (as it was called) with a passion. But the responsibility, the ability to grow in responsibility, the integrating and making friends with people from around the country, and being "held" responsible for one's action's are benefit's that stay with a person for their entire lives. Also there are very, very, few vet's who are not patriotic and hence appreciate what freedom is all about.
Someone told me the other day they heard that about 70% of military age people today can't meet the minimum qualifications for one reason or another to enter the service. I think the problem, even if it is solvable considering how the family structure has been destroyed, has to start way beyond that. A lot of these people are lost even before they are teens.
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  #48  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:20 AM
Vos Parate Vos Parate is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
Going to leave this right here. Study published in the journal Pediatric identified that, based on data collected, states with universal background checks had 35 percent fewer gun deaths of Americans 21 and younger.

Universal checks are not an infringement on our rights to keep and bear arms, they’re a safety that the wrong people don’t have the opportunity to purchase firearms. And when caught with a firearm after violent crime, if the perpetrator is still alive, it means greater prison time.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/child-...ry?id=64388062


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  #49  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:21 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by HT77 View Post
Someone told me the other day they heard that about 70% of military age people today can't meet the minimum qualifications for one reason or another to enter the service. I think the problem, even if it is solvable considering how the family structure has been destroyed, has to start way beyond that. A lot of these people are lost even before they are teens.
Agree about starting it earlier. We grew up without SM, we were out hiking, playing tag, and shooting each other with toy GUNS!, playing baseball, football, you name it. We could do a push or two - LOL before we went to boot camp.

What do you propose to start earlier?
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Last edited by combat auto; 08-08-2019 at 07:24 AM.
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  #50  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:22 AM
Vos Parate Vos Parate is offline
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Originally Posted by RichG View Post
The. Whole. Reason. To. Invent. Firearms. Was. To. Create. More. Efficient. Killing. Machines. That is what we call dangerous, ma’am or sir.

A UBC doesn’t investigate the gun, it investigates the owner of your booger hook to ensure s/he doesn’t get ahold of a dangerous killing machine. The whole point is to reduce the number of unnecessary gun deaths to hopefully zero.

But as long as there are guns there will be killing with guns. So to argue that these laws are not perfect, so why have them—the futility argument—really doesn’t hold water IMHO. The fact is that we only know the deaths that the laws didn’t prevent. We won’t know about the ones they prevented until studies like the one that was published compares places with UBC laws against places without them and we can see a difference in death rates.


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