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  #76  
Old 08-04-2019, 08:58 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
Not too long ago I saw a series of posting in this forum where permit holders were explaining why their only purpose for carrying is to protect their family, and if they could stay out of it they would! I was amazed! A guy has a 1911 and sees someone indiscriminately murdering strangers and he grabs his family and runs away? At the time I felt like the oddball in that thread for saying I'd take the jerk out if I could.

Maybe that's why no one shot the SOB.
Use the Dayton shooter as an example. He was wearing body armor, making your odds of successfully engaging him with a pistol that much more difficult. Also consider the police were on him in less than a minute, meaning they'd have been on YOU as well since they couldn't have known who was the bad guy. I have to agree with those who say to avoid getting involved, and to focus on protecting me and mine, even if that doesn't sound very chivalrous. I'd rather live and have that on my conscience than be praised posthumously as a hero.
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  #77  
Old 08-04-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
That is incorrect. Millions of guns in this country are mostly in hands of you and I, law abiding gun owners. Some of those guns are in hands of organized crime and gangs that will be killing each other no matter what, and some innocent people too in the process. But the vast majority of these high profile mass shootings is committed by asswipes who are recent gun owners, often times buying ARs and AKs shortly before their crimes. Please check my facts, I am not stating this as a universal truth but I believe it is correct. Most of those asswipes are young people, with exception of Vegas, and most are new gun owners. When the AWB is enacted (note I don't say "if", I say "when"), the new generation of murderous asswipes will have a limited access and with that it will decrease the frequency with which high-cap semi-auto rifles are used to kill innocents. There is no way around it, and stats from all over the world where access to assault-style weapons is forbidden shows that pretty clearly. They will still kill people with shotguns and revolvers, or kill their parents and steal their ARs and kill people, but they won't be able to do what Parkland or garlic festival or Vegas killers did. The frequency of highly visible mass killings will decrease, the left will call it a victory, the AWB will be cemented in, and we all will be sitting and wondering what we could've done but didn't.
Correct, and I will add this.

The Unabomber was an MK Ultra experimental victim.
The Aurora CO shooter was also in a mind-control program. His father is highly involved in this.
The El Paso shooter's dad also has similar connections. New Age healer guru type. Alcoholic/druggie for decades. Seems pretty flaky himself.

Also, though the MSM wants to pin all this on Trump of course, there is this inconvenient truth. But he was a white-supremicist Progressive, not a Republican.

The mass shootings will decrease not because of repressive new gun laws, but because the Left will stand down its wind-up toys. But they will claim it's because of the laws.

Politics is far deeper and darker than what we old guys learned in civics class in the 1960s.

Last edited by TominMO; 08-04-2019 at 09:57 PM.
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  #78  
Old 08-04-2019, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Use the Dayton shooter as an example. He was wearing body armor, making your odds of successfully engaging him with a pistol that much more difficult. Also consider the police were on him in less than a minute, meaning they'd have been on YOU as well since they couldn't have known who was the bad guy. I have to agree with those who say to avoid getting involved, and to focus on protecting me and mine, even if that doesn't sound very chivalrous. I'd rather live and have that on my conscience than be praised posthumously as a hero.
The club in Dayton was probably a gun-free zone. The Wal-Mart in El Paso was not, and the shooter did not have body armor. (Assuming he was in fact the shooter and not a patsy.)

However, given the fog of war and the shoppers not knowing if there was one or many gunmen, maybe the prudent thing to do was not to engage. Still, killing one of them might cause any others to bail--and prevent untold numbers of additional deaths. And maybe there is only one, so mission accomplished after all.

It's a rough choice to have to make, and I can only hope I would do the right thing. I am pretty good at shooting paper, but that has very little relationship to the pistol skills needed in a mass shooting.
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  #79  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:05 PM
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The Dayton shooter is revealed as another mentally ill Leftist. Lots of that going on among those on that end of the political spectrum.
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  #80  
Old 08-05-2019, 03:36 AM
cw410 cw410 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Use the Dayton shooter as an example. He was wearing body armor, making your odds of successfully engaging him with a pistol that much more difficult. Also consider the police were on him in less than a minute, meaning they'd have been on YOU as well since they couldn't have known who was the bad guy. I have to agree with those who say to avoid getting involved, and to focus on protecting me and mine, even if that doesn't sound very chivalrous. I'd rather live and have that on my conscience than be praised posthumously as a hero.
I actually agree with this...that's something. As a professional, it's my job to kill the bad guys. As a civie, it's your job to protect yourself and your family and let me do my job. I suspect a lot of the "I woulda showed him" crowd has never been in a gunfight or been shot at. I have. As to the wondering about the El Paso case and why there wasn't a squad to platoon of concealed carry warriors battling the guy...maybe it's because in that moment the possibility of their lives ending abruptly was finally driven home to them, and that it might not shake out the way they had imagined it when they got their CHL, so they chose the option that made their survival the most likely outcome.

Last edited by cw410; 08-05-2019 at 03:39 AM.
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  #81  
Old 08-05-2019, 05:02 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Speaking of Trump, he was just quoted as saying "perhaps more has to be done" on guns. Don't be shocked if he sells us down the river like he did last time on bump stocks.
The right has a fine line to thread...

It is easy to say "not an inch", but if the right doesn't come across as wanting to do "something" their is some risk. If we loose the senate and the presidency it is game over, we will have nothing but a SG and revolver (if) we are lucky. So it is important that we stay in power and hence the political aspect's need to be considered. (And it is for this reason it was the correct move to give up bump-stocks - a worthless piece of crap).

I don't know what the right answer is. But anything "we" do should matched by other political-position's giving up something. At this time, I don't think AR's or mag capacity are realistically at risk at the national-level (but even as you and other's have posted, if the shooting's continue everything will be at significant-risk), but I think a lot of attention will be given to Universal Background check's this time around. There are already quite a few on the right who will support them even pre-these 2 shooting's. Right now Mitch is the key-player, he is the one in the hot seat to make a move or not. POTUS will likely just go along for the "ride" either way. My guess is Mitch will not do anything and the noise will fade away after a time and until the next time - and the next time unfortunately is inevitable...I make no claim either way as to if this is the right way to go or not. There is political risk either way. But all decision's have to be made in the context of maintaining power on our side. If we loose it, by-by-2A and all the other "A's", the Communist with shred the constitution right before our eye's.
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Last edited by combat auto; 08-05-2019 at 05:33 AM.
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  #82  
Old 08-05-2019, 05:13 AM
Guyfromohio Guyfromohio is online now
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Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
Not too long ago I saw a series of posting in this forum where permit holders were explaining why their only purpose for carrying is to protect their family, and if they could stay out of it they would! I was amazed! A guy has a 1911 and sees someone indiscriminately murdering strangers and he grabs his family and runs away? At the time I felt like the oddball in that thread for saying I'd take the jerk out if I could.

Maybe that's why no one shot the SOB.

It’s a nightclub area. The only people who are there, are generally drinking. You can’t and shouldn’t be carrying when you are drinking. I carry. Almost always, but when I don’t carry is when I can’t carry, but is when I really need to be. Also.... as said.... gun shots are heard, you pull a gun....you are now a threat to anyone joining the scene with a badge and gun. It’s a hard one and I hope I’m never in a situation to have to decide.

Last edited by Guyfromohio; 08-05-2019 at 05:16 AM.
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  #83  
Old 08-05-2019, 05:50 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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No Social Media or sale of violent video games for anyone under 21. Make it a felony just like they did with magazine capacity, BSs, etc. The same way the MSM and commie left are screaming again that AWs are the issue and common denominator with these mass shootings, so is social media, violent video games and the internet itself. Someone on OUR side needs to start pushing back. And, i dont wanna hear about 1A, when they dont hesitate to take a dump on 2A.

Start asking these loud mouth left potus wannabes feel about that in a debate. Bernie has taken advantage of the younger generation trying to brainwash them into believing his nonsensical impossible policies; i wonder how he’d feel about not having the 18-21 yo population cheering for his bs.

Last edited by Plantar5; 08-05-2019 at 05:56 AM.
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  #84  
Old 08-05-2019, 06:05 AM
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/dayton-oh...spect-hit-list

Back to the actual incident and the crazy murderer.

He had a "rape" list in high school, got kicked out then allowed back. Does this sound like the nut job that murdered those high school students in FL?
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  #85  
Old 08-05-2019, 06:16 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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So much, again, for the red flag laws. Oh, that’s right, that only applies in legal firearm owners who are going through a nasty divorce or break up.....
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  #86  
Old 08-05-2019, 09:39 AM
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Trump just called for RF laws. Every State will now have them.

If you say one thing that offends someone, even if it was not offensive, LE can come take whatever you have and then you need a lawyer to clear your name and to get your property back. And now your name is in the record. And for places like AZ you cannot expunge the BS, thus it's still available to the public.

Crazies need to be stopped, I just don't see how giving discretionary RF power to local PD and such. In this time/day (mid 2019) you might be targeted because you are a Trump supporter and the local PD chief is a never-Trump'er.

If AZ goes for RF laws then we AZ citizens will need to demand that expungement be included.
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  #87  
Old 08-05-2019, 09:41 AM
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You can bet I'll be using my CCL rights more and more these days. I'm not going to get shot in a WalMart by someone who has become unhinged without doing whatever I can to save myself and others' innocent lives!
And its interesting, not one person in that Walmart fired back?
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  #88  
Old 08-05-2019, 09:52 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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And its interesting, not one person in that Walmart fired back?
I'm not sure it is all that interesting. One, it is very possible no one was armed and two, a situation like that is mass confusion and most people, in spite of the gun fire, aren't really sure what is going on. Obviously after the fact and in hindsight, things are much clearer.
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  #89  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:05 AM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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I'm not sure it is all that interesting. One, it is very possible no one was armed and two, a situation like that is mass confusion and most people, in spite of the gun fire, aren't really sure what is going on. Obviously after the fact and in hindsight, things are much clearer.
Its a current political talking point, lefty is arguing against the "arm everyone" words. TX is heavy in gun ownership and people carrying.

I mentioned it in other post, we really need to know how many had a firearm and why they did not fire back, and if nobody had a firearm then why not? This gives us an idea of the culture in that area, and if this was a factor in the nut driving down from Dallas to commit the crime.
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  #90  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:16 AM
Arithon Arithon is offline
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This stuff makes my heart sick, not again!

I have grave concerns what all this is leading to. The 2nd Amendment is in serious trouble. As others said, average Joe Q. Public is getting sick of this stuff, and the easy solution of "lets just ban guns" is going to start sounding really good. Hell, I'm getting sick of it too, but I know its a people problem, not a gun problem.

I think it really boils down to the fact we have gotten rid of teaching kids that there are such things as right and wrong. Moral teaching is nonexistent. Concepts like Honor, decency, and responsibility are relics of the past. We also have gotten away from being able to identify and get people intro treatment that have these tendencies. Whenever these things happen its always "that guy" that everyone knew was sick and messed up, but nothing can be done about them.

These things have always happened but back in the day it was so incredibly rare because people were brought up to know right and wrong. They had a moral code to life by.


I've watched tons of violent movies. Played violent video games all my life. Had access to guns all my life. And not once would doing this ever ever occur to me. Because I know its a horrible sin, a terrible, unspeakable act that is beyond the pale of redemption...It's just wrong. Even if I wanted to kill myself, it would never enter my mind to want to take down a bunch of random innocent people with me.

This is a powerful reminder to be armed, always. Stay vigilant and support the 2nd amendment brothers and sisters!
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  #91  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:17 AM
Akbowman Akbowman is offline
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Unfortunately this is the type of idiocy we are dealing with. Either this guy is very uneducated in firearms in general, OR he’s not, and in that case, even more dangerous...basing an AWB not on aesthetics but performance factors like the ubiquitous “firepower” or things like muzzle velocity? If it comes to that, where’s the line? What’s your preference?, a 55 grain bullet at 3000+ FPS? Or a 400+ grain bullet at 1500 to 1800 FPS? Pretty much anything beyond a spring driven pellet rifle could be billed as an “assault rifle” WTH is an “assault rifle” anyways? (Sorry for ending this with a rhetorical question)
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  #92  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:27 AM
Badd72 Badd72 is offline
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I think gun companies are pushing the envelope. Making arm braces to make rifles into pistols. The 50 and 100 round drums. Any products the normal gun owner doesn't use. They are going to cause all assault weapons and high capacity magazines to be banned again. Before you jump all over me I am a 100% believer in the 2nd amendment and the right to own and carry firearms. I own and carry have a ccw license and am a member of the NRA. I just think certain products are making our case harder to make. Bumpstocks were a perfect example of what I am talking about. They were a product that really pushed it and skated around the laws on automatic weapons. It is hard to defend a 100 round capacity device and it is going to cost us our 20 or 30 round magazines if another ban is passed.
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  #93  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:32 AM
John Joseph John Joseph is offline
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My thoughts are these shootings are indicative of the moral decay of Society stemming from the destruction of the rightful authority of the Family as well as the alienation of young males due to the imposition of discrimination based on sex which Liberals have demanded from educators in our schools and universities.
Counting Gilroy, all three shooters were lone wolves, and two of the venues---the Garlic Festival and Walmart's back to school sale, are places where families can be expected to be found, while the third, an entertainment district, is where young people frequent to develop personal relationships---modern day courtship, if you will.

It is all terribly sad--the needless deaths and the seeming blindness to the deeper causes.
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  #94  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:32 AM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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Originally Posted by Arithon View Post
This stuff makes my heart sick, not again!

I have grave concerns what all this is leading to. The 2nd Amendment is in serious trouble. As others said, average Joe Q. Public is getting sick of this stuff, and the easy solution of "lets just ban guns" is going to start sounding really good. Hell, I'm getting sick of it too, but I know its a people problem, not a gun problem.

I think it really boils down to the fact we have gotten rid of teaching kids that there are such things as right and wrong. Moral teaching is nonexistent. Concepts like Honor, decency, and responsibility are relics of the past. We also have gotten away from being able to identify and get people intro treatment that have these tendencies. Whenever these things happen its always "that guy" that everyone knew was sick and messed up, but nothing can be done about them.

These things have always happened but back in the day it was so incredibly rare because people were brought up to know right and wrong. They had a moral code to life by.


I've watched tons of violent movies. Played violent video games all my life. Had access to guns all my life. And not once would doing this ever ever occur to me. Because I know its a horrible sin, a terrible, unspeakable act that is beyond the pale of redemption...It's just wrong. Even if I wanted to kill myself, it would never enter my mind to want to take down a bunch of random innocent people with me.

This is a powerful reminder to be armed, always. Stay vigilant and support the 2nd amendment brothers and sisters!
Kids playing bad games = bad parenting.

To stay armed? What does that mean these days? It's likely many of the folks in that TX Walmart were armed. We dont know why they did not fire back. Or, nobody was armed, but why?

I have said it may times before, and i'll say it again, LE is not protecting you, society needs to protect itself. This I believe is a fundamental thing for US citizens. If we let the govt take over then what you are left with is LE not able to protect you, and, you not able to protect yourself or others.

I also mentioned in other thread, have been for months trying to figure out a method for stopping incidents like Dayton and El Paso before they occur, and thus far I cannot, because stopping the normal-today nut-job tomorrow is seemingly impossible.
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:49 AM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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I guess CNN missed it, Fox reported it.

Trump called Dayton "Toledo" at the end of his talk !! It was on the teleprompter !! Fire that person for that goof!

Ut oh, social media is lit up big time because of this !
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  #96  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:58 AM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911_Kid View Post
Its a current political talking point, lefty is arguing against the "arm everyone" words. TX is heavy in gun ownership and people carrying.

I mentioned it in other post, we really need to know how many had a firearm and why they did not fire back, and if nobody had a firearm then why not? This gives us an idea of the culture in that area, and if this was a factor in the nut driving down from Dallas to commit the crime.
El Paso is over 80% Hispanic. At any point in time, there is a massive number of illegals there. Considering all that, it is easy to understand why no one was carrying. It is more like Mexico than America.
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  #97  
Old 08-05-2019, 11:03 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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There’s many more of you who carry daily, so my .02 probably doesn’t account for much.
It doesn’t sound like there’s a ‘recipe’ to follow whether an armed civilian engages a shooter or not. Too many variables. Seeing innocents getting ruthlessly shot could make someone start shooting or someone else crawl under a rock.
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  #98  
Old 08-05-2019, 12:40 PM
1911_Kid 1911_Kid is offline
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El Paso is over 80% Hispanic. At any point in time, there is a massive number of illegals there. Considering all that, it is easy to understand why no one was carrying. It is more like Mexico than America.
I have a young relative in El Paso. I have only heard stories about El Paso, which are not all good.

But to your point, that is perhaps the data I am looking for. Was nobody armed because of the diversity there of both legal and illegal persons? Or maybe some were armed but simply not mentally prepared for such scenario? I think this data is important to know.
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Old 08-05-2019, 01:07 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911_Kid View Post
I have a young relative in El Paso. I have only heard stories about El Paso, which are not all good.

But to your point, that is perhaps the data I am looking for. Was nobody armed because of the diversity there of both legal and illegal persons? Or maybe some were armed but simply not mentally prepared for such scenario? I think this data is important to know.
Most illegals are not going to be armed and I would not be surprised if there were more illegals in that Walmart than legals. The vast majority of licensed CCW people in America are white and conservative. There might not have been any of those in that particular Walmart at that time. El Paso is more like a Mexican city than an American one.
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Old 08-05-2019, 01:10 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911_Kid View Post
I have a young relative in El Paso. I have only heard stories about El Paso, which are not all good.

But to your point, that is perhaps the data I am looking for. Was nobody armed because of the diversity there of both legal and illegal persons? Or maybe some were armed but simply not mentally prepared for such scenario? I think this data is important to know.
As stated previously in Texas ‘no firearms allowed’ signs carry the weight of the law. And since most who do carry obey the law there may have been several who left their guns elsewhere.
We can look back to the Luby’s cafeteria shooting for an example of this.
The woman who left her gun in the car because it was a posted ‘no gun’ place hid under a table and helplessly watched her parents be murdered.
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