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  #26  
Old 03-09-2019, 11:19 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK View Post
Well, most people whose experience and skill levels with DA/SA pistols put them into positions of authority came from units and departments issuing SIG 229/226 and those are decock-only, no manual safety guns. I've had and still have a ton of Berettas, but all of mine are decock only too so I'll excuse myself from M9 manual of arms discussion, although I thought that if it was in a hammer cocked state, you couldn't engage manual safety without decocking first. I could be very wrong here though.

Anyway, this discussion/argument comes up regularly between competitors and tactical crowd. We (competitors) have been running through courses of fire with DA/SA guns with 2 lbs triggers without decocking or safetying for a long time and without issues. All tactical instructors, without exception, insisted on decocking as soon as gun came off the target. This is a situation where despite my personal experience I defer to experts' opinion.
The last bit makes some sense to me, when I do a sting with an SAO gun and then want to move or run somewhere else for another string I always flick the gun back to safe, if I'm not shooting or transitioning it's back to safe. During a reload though I generally do not set it to safe since that makes no sense as I would have to break my grip twice and it doesn't make the gun any safer in practical terms with a 1911. You drop a 1911 off safe and something would have to fall in the guard and depress the grip safety at the same time. Or it would have to slam in such a way to press the beavertail inward at the right angle and force to accelerate the trigger enough to release the sear.

I don't see this happening.

DA/SA I decock when I'm not shooting or transistioning in a string. Easy to do since it's on the way to the mag release on a SIG.

Last edited by Striker2237; 03-09-2019 at 11:23 PM.
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  #27  
Old 03-10-2019, 05:57 AM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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No, do not engage the safety. Thunder Ranch’s motto is LOGIC and it needs to be applied here.

Let’s think about this. You are in a gun fight. Hand coordination has dropped by at least 1/3 due to adrenaline. Your brain is occupied with the fight. There is a pause and you think there is at least one round in your 1911 because the slide is closed. There is a pause in action and you decide to do a tac reload. Why would you activate the safety? What administrative situation are you in? You are not in an administrative situation; it is a GUN FIGHT! Messing with the safety can result in you forgetting to deactivate it since your brain is engaged OUTWARD toward the target. Your muzzle is has been repeatedly pointed in unsafe directions, including at people who are trying to kill you! The situation is already unsafe!

I think the answer is obvious given the above: Take your finger off the trigger, load the gun, and continue fighting (or not) as required.

Last edited by tomrkba; 03-10-2019 at 06:07 AM.
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  #28  
Old 03-10-2019, 06:08 AM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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I do not decock my P220 when doing a tac reload. There is no reason to when the finger is off the trigger.
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  #29  
Old 03-11-2019, 02:36 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Finger out of the trigger guard during reloads and we're all good.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2019, 07:47 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
What administrative situation are you in?
When I was taught that, nobody said it had to be done because it was an admin gun handling. The reasons given were totally different from that, but if logic dictates you otherwise, press on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
I do not decock my P220 when doing a tac reload. There is no reason to when the finger is off the trigger.
US Navy SEALs, USSS, US FAMs and every pro agency who has ran DA/SA guns disagreed, in theory and in practice, pretty much for the same reason why CAG engaged safeties on tac loads, but if logic dictates otherwise, press on.
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  #31  
Old 03-12-2019, 01:58 PM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
Sounds like a match without a defined set of rules or a lack of consistency in Range Officers.

In my mind that a clue to go somewhere else.
I am in this camp too. If there are not written rules to follow, I’d find another group to shoo with.

FWIW I TAC loaded for a number of years before switching to reload with rentension (RWR), it’s faster.

USPSA and IDPA have no such rules that require the shooter to engage the safety. Even in all the 3 gun stuff I’ve shot where rules vary the only time the gun was required to be on safe was in loaded in a holster or set down somewhere loaded.

FWIW I have shot with a number of Police, some SWAT, some things they do that make sense as far as entry teams and such, would get you DQ’ed in some gun games.
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  #32  
Old 03-12-2019, 03:11 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
FWIW I have shot with a number of Police, some SWAT, some things they do that make sense as far as entry teams and such, would get you DQed in some gun games.
Yup, we don't do the Sul.

But you can see the reason for LE and mil insistence on hitting the safety or the decock when not actually shooting; they are accompanied by allies they should not endanger.

When I am shooting a match, there is nobody out there but me and the targets, I will get yelled at if I approach the "180" and disqualified if I cross it. So as long as I keep my finger out of the trigger guard whilst moving or reloading, I am ok, no matter the position of the levers and buttons.
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  #33  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:01 PM
GaryWWhite GaryWWhite is offline
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It is really weird that RO's would ask that the safety or decocking of the pistol be made. The 1911 and the guns with a decocker still have a safety like the polymer guns do and that is keep your finger off the trigger. This should mean that a Glock user would take out the magazine and clear the weapon before reinserting the magazine again in order to be "safe"! How ludicrous!! I might add if the pistol games didn't have the time element involved you wouldn't have to worry about safeties. They always could be deployed in that scenario.
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  #34  
Old 03-13-2019, 03:42 PM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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Quote:
But you can see the reason for LE and mil insistence on hitting the safety or the decock when not actually shooting; they are accompanied by allies they should not endanger.
You can say that again, this photo cam fromthe US Marshals site. Looks to me like if the guy 2nd to the end AD’ed it would be above the best and into the neck of the fellow looking at the camera.



Maybe a domino effect when he shoots the guy in front of him in the back, where he’s aiming...
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3D529010-7D69-4356-AD9C-07F8AEBE980B.jpeg  

Last edited by jmorris; 03-13-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-13-2019, 10:12 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Please note that these are training pistols.

Hopefully this photo will be used as a training aid.

This might indicate why more agencies and military training is going toward the "sul" position.

Smiles,
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  #36  
Old 03-14-2019, 01:11 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryWWhite View Post
This should mean that a Glock user would take out the magazine and clear the weapon before reinserting the magazine again in order to be "safe"!
Alternatively, it could mean that a Glock user simply doesn't get a benefit of an additional margin of safety that manual safety engagement or hammer decocking offer in situations that don't always unfold according to rules and mentalities of square ranges with 180 degree boundaries, hosting one player at the time and a whole lot of papers and sticks.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #37  
Old 03-14-2019, 06:00 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Police training photo.....

We can't tell if there are any mechanical safeties being used in the photo, however, note that each officer has his trigger finger outside the trigger guard....which is a good safety method.... The trigger finger should only be inside the trigger guard when getting ready to shoot....
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  #38  
Old 03-14-2019, 06:52 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Bravado aside, your finger is NOT, by any definition, a "safety.
A safety is a feature on a device or piece of equipment designed to prevent injury or death in the event the human operator makes a mistakeor error.

If "finger off the trigger was a 'safety' ", there would be precisely zero NDs in human history...

Mechanical safety devices are designed and intended to mitigate human error...
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  #39  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:19 AM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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Quote:
Alternatively, it could mean that a Glock user simply doesn't get a benefit of an additional margin of safety that manual safety engagement
They do have a mechanical safety it just happens to be in a convenient spot to disengage it it you are waiting to shoot. It also automatically engages when you take your finger off the trigger.

Quote:
Trigger Safety
The trigger safety is the first safety in the firing sequence. It’s incorporated into the trigger in the form of a lever and when it is engaged blocks the trigger from moving rearward. To fire the pistol, the trigger safety and the trigger itself must be deliberately depressed at the same time. If the trigger safety is not depressed, the trigger will not move rearwards and allow the pistol to fire.
https://us.glock.com/learn/glock-pis...-action-system
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  #40  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:22 AM
jmorris jmorris is offline
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Quote:
Please note that these are training pistols.
I did notice this and that makes it even worse.
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  #41  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:35 AM
Taxvictim Taxvictim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
Lets think about this. You are in a gun fight.... There is a pause in action and you decide to do a tac reload. Why would you activate the safety?
THIS! ^^^^ Tac reloads are for practice of what would happen in a fight!

If you fumble the mags while changing and the bad guy pops back up, at least you can fire one shot at him with the round in the chamber (unless yours has a magazine safety). Then slam one mag home, drop the slide, and keep firing.
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  #42  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:15 AM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Mechanical safety devices are designed and intended to mitigate human error...
Sure. However, human error can include failing to use the mechanical safety. The brain is the ultimate safety. Gotta use it though.
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  #43  
Old 03-15-2019, 06:02 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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The finger is not a safety.....

It is not a mechanical safety, but keeping the trigger finger out of the trigger guard is more "safe" than keeping the trigger finger loosely inside the trigger guard.

A person conducting a TAC reload should learn to keep the finger out of the trigger guard when conducting the reload. and to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.... I have never had an AD during a reload, which is mainly because my trigger finger is outside of the trigger guard....and I have been shooting action pistol for some 35+ years and still compete....

When I shoot action pistol scenarios, where there are options on which direction to move from one shooting position to another, If it is feasible, I try to move left to right, so as I am conducting a speed reload, the muzzle will be pointing down range......
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  #44  
Old 03-15-2019, 07:16 AM
lhawkins lhawkins is offline
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I would find another shooting venue as others suggested. The rule not only does not make sense, there is no consistency in application of rules.

Also, I see the OP pointed out the rule stickler was wearing a Gunsite hat. I think most that have been around competitive shooting realized a long time ago apparel does not make anyone a better shooter or even a better RO.

The only time I can think of when we look for safety engagement or decock is:

When holstering if SA and chambered

When putting a loaded gun down in a dump barrel, handoff, or table during multi-gun

What I really look for is finger off the trigger and muzzle stays down range during any non shooting firearm manipulation.

Last edited by lhawkins; 03-15-2019 at 07:29 AM.
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  #45  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:56 PM
wv109323 wv109323 is offline
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Sounds like it is a qualification with different rules per the RO.
In bullseye pistol you are commanded when to load,and after firing the first string , you start with the slide back and load your second magazine .There is no manatory safety on during this reload. After the two strings are fired the pistol must have the slide back, magazine out and ECI in place before anyone is allowed forward of firing line.
In USPSA there is a box or firing line. The pistol is unloaded in a holster and remains so until the shooter is in the box. The range officer instructs the shooter when to load. After firing has started it is up to the shooter to determine when to reload. There is no safety on during the course of fire. When completed the magazine is dropped ,chamber is shown empty and the hammer is dropped. The pistol is then holstered and remains so until it is his turn to be in the box again.
The club in question should have a set of rules for their qualifications.
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  #46  
Old 03-20-2019, 10:56 PM
mangeek mangeek is offline
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Interesting thread. Question though, what is a tac reload versus a normal reload? Serious question, but make fun if you want. I do shoot USPSA competition, but do not fully understand what is meant by the term tac reload (mentioned in this thread repeatedly), vs a normal reload I might do in USPSA.
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  #47  
Old 03-20-2019, 11:17 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Tactical reload is when you stow the partial mag before/after topping off the gun. It used to be a big thing in IDPA but is no longer allowed to be required.
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2019, 12:00 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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Does IDPA now allow dropping partial mags on the ground like USPSA?
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2019, 12:01 AM
mangeek mangeek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
Tactical reload is when you stow the partial mag before/after topping off the gun. It used to be a big thing in IDPA but is no longer allowed to be required.
Ahh. Thanks for the explanation!
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  #50  
Old 03-21-2019, 06:05 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Dropping partial mags when shooting IDPA....

To my knowledge, the IDPA rules have not changed. Dropping a partial mag rather than retaining it during a reload, is still a PE and adds 3 seconds to your time..... If a person inadvertently drops a partial mag during a reload, if the mag is picked up and retained before the last shot is fired, it is not a penalty....
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