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  #26  
Old 11-07-2009, 12:42 PM
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamerer View Post
With a 1 in 3 failure rate, my first suspicion would have been light primer strikes. That's just too high a rate for primer failure. My first move would have been to try it in another 9mm as a test.

You should try talking to Kahr about evaluating your firing system.
You should research other forums on this subject....Many more guns than mine are experiencing the same problem. I did talk with Kahr -- they offered to examine the gun if I have the problem with various ammo but they were very doubtful it is the gun if I have the failure with only Critical Defense ammo.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2009, 01:05 PM
dcsans dcsans is offline
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Excaliber- This is one of the reasons it is imperative that you test your carry ammo in your carry gun. Kudos to you for testing first! I am very disappointed in the response from Hornady, but I am glad you found out at a range rather then when you really needed it
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2009, 04:39 PM
Hank Ellis Hank Ellis is offline
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I was at Clark Custom Guns a couple months back picking up one gun and dropping another for some work. While there the subject of J-frames came up. We talked about our carry loads and one of the gunsmiths had tried the Hornady CD in his J-frame. He ran into the same failure to fire issues.

If a gunsmith from one of the top shops in the country has ammo that don't fire, it ain't the gun.
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  #29  
Old 11-08-2009, 06:28 PM
Kamerer Kamerer is offline
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Quote:
You should research other forums on this subject....
I have. You should research systems analysis and statistics. The scenario you described argues strongly on first glance the diagnosis is a fire group problem, not an ammo problem. That would be the very first thing to investigate in a differential diagnosis of the problem.

Examination by experts appear to have confirmed that!

The problem is that the HCD ammo appears to have poor tolerance for out-of-spec guns. It is not "bad" ammo, it is simply less tolerant of guns not reliably creating the depth and force of primer penetration the industry standards specify. The problem can be solved by either gun manufacturers paying more attention to primer function, or it can be solved by making primers easier to ignite. But laying the blame on the ammo as "defective" when the gun is not performing to spec. is not a credible analysis.
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Last edited by Kamerer; 11-08-2009 at 06:31 PM.
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  #30  
Old 11-08-2009, 07:08 PM
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamerer View Post
I have. You should research systems analysis and statistics. The scenario you described argues strongly on first glance the diagnosis is a fire group problem, not an ammo problem. That would be the very first thing to investigate in a differential diagnosis of the problem.

Examination by experts appear to have confirmed that!

The problem is that the HCD ammo appears to have poor tolerance for out-of-spec guns. It is not "bad" ammo, it is simply less tolerant of guns not reliably creating the depth and force of primer penetration the industry standards specify. The problem can be solved by either gun manufacturers paying more attention to primer function, or it can be solved by making primers easier to ignite. But laying the blame on the ammo as "defective" when the gun is not performing to spec. is not a credible analysis.
Uhhh, maybe so, but ammo that is touted as "CRITICAL DEFENSE" designed to save one's life but that won't fire in a number of different types and makes of guns and only works if a gun is 100% perfectly in spec is NOT my idea of an ammo I want to use to defend my life. I've tested many different quality hollow points in my gun with NO problems. You can bet one of those will not be Hornady's Critical Defense!! I just hope no one experiences a tragedy from this ammo.
And, keep in mind the rep at Hornady finally admitted to me that they have had an unusual amount of this ammo returned for the same FTF problem. What irritates me is that because the ammo is up to "specs" they won't do anything about it.
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  #31  
Old 11-08-2009, 08:43 PM
comp45acp comp45acp is offline
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Hornady Critical Defense

I have fired several boxes through my Wilson Professional 9mm-no problems with ignition. I did have some feeding problems however. The little rubber tip sticks out past the end of the bullet of would act like a brake pad, stopping the round on the feed ramp. I was able to get around that by just trimming the rubber off flush with the end of the bullet with a razor blade. It now feeds perfectly. I like this ammo because it is very accurate in my pistol and the way the bullet performs.
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  #32  
Old 11-12-2009, 04:03 PM
Danny45 Danny45 is offline
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I wonder, how much usage has your Kahr had? Could it be that you're starting to see the results of a weakening firing pin spring?
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  #33  
Old 11-12-2009, 06:20 PM
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny45 View Post
I wonder, how much usage has your Kahr had? Could it be that you're starting to see the results of a weakening firing pin spring?
I replaced the firing pin spring as well as recoil spring not long ago and have only about 120 rounds with the new springs. I'm thinking of replacing the firing pin spring again just in case I got a defective one. I think that's a long shot but maybe worth a try.
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  #34  
Old 11-20-2009, 11:25 AM
jbabbler jbabbler is offline
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I had a Kahr CW9 for 5 months. Unfortunately it spent 3 of those months in and out of the hands of Kahr. Mine would light strike every brand of ammo I tried. At one range outing I had 20% Failures due to light primer strikes. Here are some pictures from my gun.

This first shot shows two different brands of ammo. This was after sending the gun back to Kahr 2 times. The 2nd time they returned it with "No trouble found" written on the work order.




The third time I sent it back i sent it to the Director of the service department. They took good care of it and sent it back to me repaired 48 hours later.

There is a huge difference in the location of the strike and the depth.



My pint is, I wouldn't trust that CW9 for personal protection if you aren't 100% sure the gun will light off even the hardest of primers. I don't like living that close to the edge...

YMMV
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  #35  
Old 11-23-2009, 09:38 PM
swmp9jrm swmp9jrm is offline
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As mentioned a while back in this thread, I had 2 rounds out of the first 10 rounds of a box of Critical Defense that did not go bang on the first strike with my Taurus PT-709. I've put more than a dozen other types of FMJ and JHP ammunition - more than 750 rounds - through this same gun with NO issues. Wolf, Golden Bear, Tula, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, American Eagle, and PMC Bronze. Cheap ammo, premium ammo - NO OTHER FAILURE TO FIRE rounds with ANY of these EXCEPT the Critical Defense.

It ain't the gun. Or at least ONLY the gun. The 2 rounds that did not fire in my gun DID fire on the second strike in the same gun. I still have 6 boxes of CD in my safe. I'm going to keep shooting this stuff to see if I get any more no-fires. But I'm not going to count on it to save my life. I'm disappointed in the response that Excalibur got from Hornady - if they freely admit that they've had more of this ammo come back for the same issue than the other things they make, simple problem analysis says there's got to be an issue. But I guess I understand their position - admit an issue, and you've got probably hundreds of thousands of rounds at risk and no way to figure out which ones will fire and which ones won't unless you hit that primer with a firing pin. I've chosen not to be the lab rat. I'll stick to my Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot - I've never had a no-fire with either of these in ANY gun or in ANY caliber.
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  #36  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:38 PM
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swmp9jrm View Post
As mentioned a while back in this thread, I had 2 rounds out of the first 10 rounds of a box of Critical Defense that did not go bang on the first strike with my Taurus PT-709. I've put more than a dozen other types of FMJ and JHP ammunition - more than 750 rounds - through this same gun with NO issues. Wolf, Golden Bear, Tula, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, American Eagle, and PMC Bronze. Cheap ammo, premium ammo - NO OTHER FAILURE TO FIRE rounds with ANY of these EXCEPT the Critical Defense.

It ain't the gun. Or at least ONLY the gun. The 2 rounds that did not fire in my gun DID fire on the second strike in the same gun. I still have 6 boxes of CD in my safe. I'm going to keep shooting this stuff to see if I get any more no-fires. But I'm not going to count on it to save my life. I'm disappointed in the response that Excalibur got from Hornady - if they freely admit that they've had more of this ammo come back for the same issue than the other things they make, simple problem analysis says there's got to be an issue. But I guess I understand their position - admit an issue, and you've got probably hundreds of thousands of rounds at risk and no way to figure out which ones will fire and which ones won't unless you hit that primer with a firing pin. I've chosen not to be the lab rat. I'll stick to my Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot - I've never had a no-fire with either of these in ANY gun or in ANY caliber.
You're right!! It ain't the gun no matter what Hornady says. My gun has fired without problem any other ammo I've run through it so why are they trying to tell me it's my gun????
Here's the latest (and final) from Hornady....I sent 3 1/2 boxes of the CD back. They then called me as mentioned earlier and told me it was my gun and all they would do is send the ammo back to me. A few days later I received 1 (ONE) box in the mail. I called and was told they would check into it. The next day I got a call from another person saying they would return all three boxes. Wow, what a favor since I paid for it in the first place!!
Again, I beleive Hornady is a good company and a lot of people will not agree with me but I'm done with them. There are too many other companies making quality ammo to put up with this type of hassle. I'll stick with Speer Gold Dot for my carry ammo!
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  #37  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:38 PM
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And we argue in another thread if carrying reloads in a SDF is a bad idea or not...
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  #38  
Old 11-25-2009, 09:00 AM
swmp9jrm swmp9jrm is offline
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Originally Posted by Butthead View Post
And we argue in another thread if carrying reloads in a SDF is a bad idea or not...
Yeah - seems a bit ironic, doesn't it. I think we all expect factory loads to perform 100% of the time. Probably not very realistic considering the number of rounds produced. I've had the occasional round that does not fire, but the sum total of these in all guns is less than a couple hundredths of a percent of what I've shot. To have 20% of the first 10 rounds no-fire on the CD was either a monumental coincidence or there is some kind of issue with this ammo and SOME guns - my 709, Excalibur's CW-9, a Walther PPS on one forum, another one on the xD forum, etc., etc. It seems that a lot of the 'problem guns' are CC guns - the exact market that would seem to be targeted by Hornady for this ammunition. They are not doing themselves a favor by stonewalling the fact that there is SOMETHING going on here. Too many people with too many different guns for this to be a random occurrence. I've put some CD rounds through my M&P9FS with no issues. I'm shooting some of each different lot I have (3 lots in the 6 boxes). But for certain, I will not use this ammunition in my 709.
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  #39  
Old 11-25-2009, 09:29 AM
jbabbler jbabbler is offline
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I don't suppose you saved any of the light strikes to take some pictures of did you? I'd love to see the dimples on the primers.
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  #40  
Old 11-25-2009, 09:43 AM
swmp9jrm swmp9jrm is offline
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Originally Posted by jbabbler View Post
I don't suppose you saved any of the light strikes to take some pictures of did you? I'd love to see the dimples on the primers.
Both rounds went bang on the second strike in the same gun (Taurus 709). I had shot several rounds of CD ahead of the two problem rounds, and I couldn't identify the problem rounds among ALL of the spent rounds (none of the rounds appeared to be different from the others). Actually, I do still have the spent cases, but I cannot identify the non-fires. I've looked at them with a magnifying glass, and have not even been able to see that these two rounds had a second strike - not a big surprise, though, as the 709 acts like a DA when you have a mis-fire and just hits the round with the striker again. You would think that if the first hit was a light strike that left an impression, the second strike would be even lighter. For this reason, and because I've run a dozen other ammo types through this gun without issue, I do not think the problem is with the gun. It may be a combination of the gun AND the ammo, but it's not the gun.

I have two other lots of 9mm CD that I will try - and I will keep close track of the brass to see if I can get some pics of the problem round if I have another no-fire.
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  #41  
Old 11-28-2009, 06:25 PM
Dorsum Dorsum is offline
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Wow I've been meaning to order some Critical Defense .38 SPL to try out in my S&W 442 but just haven't got around to it yet. Maybe I'll hold off for a while, it's a shame because the front end of this ammo looks promising for a defensive round. I'm sure Hornady will get it sorted out.
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2009, 09:07 PM
crabbybum crabbybum is offline
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I bought five boxes of 9mm from my FFL and got two boxes of the standard pressure .38 Special from another source. I have fired two boxes from a SIG P2022 and no issues. I haven't tried the .38 because of scheduling and lack of range time.

I hope to get more range time and try more of the ammo out. I got good accuracy out of the gun and ammo. It would suck if there were issues.

Well, I have some Federal 9BP JHP to try as well.
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  #43  
Old 12-02-2009, 03:36 PM
cocojo cocojo is offline
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I love the Hornady critical defense 38 special non +P. I have shot about ten boxes so far without any issues out of different guns. Very accurate ammunition and shoots to point of aim in my snub specials.
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  #44  
Old 12-05-2009, 01:32 AM
NonPCnraRN NonPCnraRN is offline
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Just a thought. Since you changed the firing pin spring and had the same results could the firing pin itself be a tiny bit short? If your firing pin is the correct length then just accept the fact that that ammo is not reliable in your gun. Long story short just don't use it, period. There are too many other good brands of ammo out there. But I do want to commend you for bringing it to our attention. I would think that if Hornady knows it has a problem with light primer strikes, then they should get a new primer supplier. The fact that other brands of ammo works in your gun means Hornady is using very tempermental primers that do not allow for any variance from "standard". That is simply not acceptable in a product marketed as Critical Defense ammo. Critical Defense should imply that it would work in a zip gun with a firing pin powered by a rubber band.
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2009, 11:59 AM
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
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Originally Posted by NonPCnraRN View Post
Just a thought. Since you changed the firing pin spring and had the same results could the firing pin itself be a tiny bit short? If your firing pin is the correct length then just accept the fact that that ammo is not reliable in your gun. Long story short just don't use it, period. There are too many other good brands of ammo out there. But I do want to commend you for bringing it to our attention. I would think that if Hornady knows it has a problem with light primer strikes, then they should get a new primer supplier. The fact that other brands of ammo works in your gun means Hornady is using very tempermental primers that do not allow for any variance from "standard". That is simply not acceptable in a product marketed as Critical Defense ammo. Critical Defense should imply that it would work in a zip gun with a firing pin powered by a rubber band.
My thoughts exactly! I'm not denying the ammo works fine in some other guns and I am going to obtain the exact length of the firing pin from Kahr to make sure mine is okay. HOWEVER, as you so well expressed, they are advertising this new ammo as the ultimate self defense ammo yet the Hornady rep clearly stated that they are having an unusual amount of it returned due to FTF's. Others can trust their lives to it....me? Never! It will not go back in my gun. Anyone interested in 3 boxes of it???
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  #46  
Old 06-22-2011, 10:08 PM
SabaismBLS SabaismBLS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faulty View Post
Are you sure?
Hornady Critical Defense is not available in .45.
Better check your info again. Sitting here looking at a box of right now.
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  #47  
Old 06-25-2011, 01:13 AM
excess3 excess3 is offline
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I realize this thread is two years old, but I want to comment anyway.
..................................
is there an industry standard, for the minimum kinetic energy
of a firing pin, in a gun that uses ammo with LPPs?

is there an industry standard, for the minimum kinetic energy
that must set off a LPP?
...........................

does Kahr test their guns with primers that
are known to be worst case ( will not fire with less than
minimum kinetic energy),
or do they buy primers from Shmoe's Gun Shop, just down the road?

just because Hornady tests their ammo with a Glock, means nothing,
a Glock could be 50% over spec, while a Kahr could be just at spec, or worse. just don't know.
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  #48  
Old 08-20-2011, 12:18 PM
cpneddie cpneddie is offline
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Trouble with Hordnady CD rounds

I purchased the Hordnady Critical Defense 357 Mag to use in my trust S&W 19-3 K frame pistol. I have used evey 357 and 38 soecial round immaginable without difficulty. Enter the CD. I loaded 6 rounds which fired off flaulessly. No misfires, good target pattern. However, when I went to extract the spent casings, they were wedged in the cylinder. I had to go home and drive the casings out of the gun. Hornady was good about paying return postage for the unused bullets and expended casings (I held back one of each). I have not heard back from them yet.
I know it only takes one shot in a critical situation but I really need the baility to reload and shoot again. Hey, that's what it's all about.
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  #49  
Old 08-20-2011, 12:49 PM
dakrat dakrat is offline
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when your life is on the line. you can depend on hornady's "CRITICAL" personal tactical seal swat defense ammo.
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  #50  
Old 08-20-2011, 01:15 PM
nala1911 nala1911 is offline
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I heard Hornady had trouble with their primers on this ammo because they were having them made overseas. Great bullet design and then they try to save a buck on cheap primers.
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