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  #101  
Old 07-20-2009, 04:49 PM
master gunner master gunner is offline
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Originally Posted by progunner1957
Exactly. That is the "The Police Are Special" thinking that permeates government and our culture today.

Yes they are, along with firefighters and EMT folks. You can recognize them very easily; they are the ones running to what you are running from.

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  #102  
Old 07-20-2009, 05:20 PM
Thursday Thursday is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progunner1957
The Davidians burned themselves alive - they immolated 76 human beings, 20 of their own children and two pregnant women all on their own, did they?
There was no evidence that any of them had any thoughts of death or suicide... OH WAIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas
Several former compound residents and relatives of current compound residents spoke of the Davidians' devotion to Koresh and their desire to kill or die for him. one former resident who left during the standoff told investigators that on March 2 Koresh intended to leave the compound with his followers and commit mass suicide, until Koresh changed his mind when God told him "to wait." Another former resident stated she had heard the members speak numerous times about suicide. Former Koresh "wife" Dana Okimoto said that if Koresh were to die before his followers, everyone inside the compound would kill themselves.

On March 5, 1993, released child Joan Vaega had a note pinned to her clothes stating that her mother (Marguerita Vaega) would be dead by the time other relatives had read the note. Former compound residents now living in Australia reported that Koresh planned mass suicide. Dr. Bruce Perry, who interviewed the released Davidian children, reported that the Davidians had apparently reached some group consensus about a final end to the confrontation. Finally, "cult expert" Kelli Waxman warned in early March that Koresh probably had suicide plans.

Several other former compound members reported that while mass suicide was not possible, they and those still inside the compound would not hesitate to die for Koresh. They also reported that Koresh expected to die in a confrontation with the government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by progunner1957
By the way: CS gas is so inhumane that its use on the battlefield has been outlawed
By the way:
I have yet to find any information to support this statement. As said above CS Gas was outlawed in WAR under the Chemical Weapons Convention which outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. Let me remind you again IN WAR.

Yes the use of CS gas in WAR is outlawed under the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention. Although it is completely legal for LEO to use CS gas. The use of CS gas was initiated on April 19 which was almost 2months into the siege that started February 20. So obviously this was held off until the last possible moment to try and disperse this in a less that lethal way.

If you believe CS gas to be so inhumane why would a good portion of our US Armed Forces incorporate CS exposure during training?
Quote:
Originally Posted by progunner1957
U.S. Special Forces advisors were on the scene to advise ATF - which is a clear violation of Posse Comitatus.
You keep throwing around Posse Comitatus, but do you actually have any idea what it means, states, and covers. Here let me help you out.

I will go ahead and add the Texas National Guard to save you some time in your next post. The ATF requested assistance from Special Forces which was finally allowed by the JFT-6. However Major Phillip Lindley, who was the Staff Judge Advocate for the US Army Special Forces Command. Was able to get this over turned which kept the Armed Forces involved within the law of Posse Comitatus. I suggest you to do a little research and know what your talking about before throwing around these accusations.

"Although the Texas National Guard provided myriad kinds of military machinery to federal law enforcement during the siege, and Active Duty soldiers assisted in maintaining the equipment, these activities all fell within the legal guidelines."

Here's a slight excerpt
"Colonel (Retired) Thomas R. Lujan, the Staff Judge Advocate for the United States Special Operations Command at the time of the incident, is convinced:
The specter of members of the Army’s special operations forces accompanying BATF agents storming a religious compound, however misguided its leader, could have seriously compromised public support of the US Army.

Had the initial request been approved (it was) and acted upon (it wasn’t), this could easily have been the single most debilitating event to occur within the Army since the tragedy at My Lai. In fact, this occurrence could have been even more egregious because it would have taken place on American soil, would have been a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act, and would have raised the issue of military involvement in a case of alleged religious freedom."

So now that we have put your cries of Posse Comitatus to rest, lets move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by progunner1957
The Davidians burned themselves alive...That claim is beyond asinine.
Oh yes how dare me make an asinine claim like that... Surely no human being would ever commint self-immolation.

Now what am I thinking no human being would ever do that to themselves.

Ever heard of any of these people? Jan Palach, Jan Zajíc, Evžen Plocek, George Winne Jr., Kostas Georgakis, Romas Kalanta, Oskar Brüsewitz, Artin Penik, Cheng Nan-jung. Should I continue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by progunner1957
from Slick Willie to Reno to the Department of Justice on down - falsely claimed that the children at Waco were being sexually abused - yet the fact remains that on no less than seven seperate occasions, investigators from Texas child welfare showed up unannounced and found the children to be clean, properly clothed, well fed, healthy and in good emotional health.
Yep once again, you might want to take a read this first. It's the Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas. It contains accusations, evidence, and accusations.
http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html
"Reports from Joyce Sparks, an investigator from the Texas agency responsible for protective services, stated that she had found significant evidence that the allegations were true in her visits to the Mount Carmel site over a period of months. However, she said that the investigation was difficult as she was not permitted to speak with the children alone, nor was she permitted to inspect all areas of the site. She noted that safety concerns over construction sites at Mount Carmel were either ignored or slowly corrected"

Quote:
Originally Posted by progunner1957
Their real crime was not child molesting or manufacturing unlawful weapons. Their crime was having "too many" guns, "too many" rounds of ammunition and "too much" food on hand.
Yep he was completely innocent. Maybe you can point it out to me but I don't see any mention of "too many" guns, etc... anywhere in the arrest/search warrant.
"On the morning of Sunday, February 28, 1993, agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) attempted to serve an arrest warrant for Vernon Howell, a/k/a David Koresh, and a search warrant at the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas. The arrest warrant charged Koresh with unlawful possession of a destructive device, in violation of 26 United States Code, section 5845(f). Both the search warrant and the arrest warrant were signed by a United States Magistrate Judge. The search warrant authorized a search of the premises of the 77 acre compound located at Route 7, Box 47-B (a/k/a The Mount Carmel Center), Waco, Texas for evidence relating to the unlawful possession of fully automatic machine guns and destructive devices. While attempting to serve these warrants, ATF agents came under heavy gunfire from individuals in the compound. As a result, four ATF agents were killed and fifteen wounded."



Quote:
Originally Posted by progunner1957
Yet you still desperately cling to your indefensible claim that the events at Waco were nothing but good, clean ploice work on the part of one and all involved.

That is beyond amazing.
Indefensible huh... I have backed up each of my claims with actual law, rulings, reports, and facts. Along with providing you with links to credible sources. I'm wondering where your getting your information from. Possibly http://www.thegovernmentisbadtheywil...ynational.com? I'm having trouble seeing where and how that falls under indefensible.

I don't consider that beyond amazing. What I consider is beyond amazing is even after you are faced with all the facts you still cling to this conspiracy theory you have come to the table with.


I have an old saying of my own for ya, brought to existence by non other than Abraham Lincoln
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Last edited by Thursday; 07-20-2009 at 05:24 PM.
  #103  
Old 07-20-2009, 05:33 PM
Thursday Thursday is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by master gunner View Post
originally posted by progunner1957
exactly. That is the "the police are special" thinking that permeates government and our culture today.

Yes they are, along with firefighters and emt folks. You can recognize them very easily; they are the ones running to what you are running from.

This.

Our LEO's, Firefighters, EMT's, etc. put themselves in the face of danger everyday. They do this so each United States citizen can live life knowing if trouble comes one of these groups won't be far behind. They are outstanding individuals who risk their lives everyday in hopes that they can save another.

So the question is are they special?
**** yes they are, and anyone who thinks different is out of their mind.

Last edited by Thursday; 07-20-2009 at 05:42 PM.
  #104  
Old 07-20-2009, 06:41 PM
master gunner master gunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
This.

Our LEO's, Firefighters, EMT's, etc. put themselves in the face of danger everyday. They do this so each United States citizen can live life knowing if trouble comes one of these groups won't be far behind. They are outstanding individuals who risk their lives everyday in hopes that they can save another.

So the question is are they special?
**** yes they are, and anyone who thinks different is out of their mind.
What we said.

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  #105  
Old 07-20-2009, 06:41 PM
Loco38SUP Loco38SUP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
Excellent quote...

RJM
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  #106  
Old 07-20-2009, 07:48 PM
silvercorvette silvercorvette is offline
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You people that are responding to all these side issues that have nothing to do with the driveway incident are falling into a trap of discussing and debating issues that have nothing to do with the initial post.

The argument can not be won if the discussion is limited to whether the officers that were at the scene acted properly, so when faced with an un-winnable argument the only thing left to do is to throw in topics and side issues that are not pertinent to the issue being discussed
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  #107  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:24 PM
DR505 DR505 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercorvette View Post
You people that are responding to all these side issues that have nothing to do with the driveway incident are falling into a trap of discussing and debating issues that have nothing to do with the initial post.

The argument can not be won if the discussion is limited to whether the officers that were at the scene acted properly, so when faced with an un-winnable argument the only thing left to do is to throw in topics and side issues that are not pertinent to the issue being discussed
Well said. Progunner keeps throwing red herrings, and when pointed out he is incorrect, starts making strange allegations and conspiracy theory BS and calling those of us with actual knowledge liars, dupes, etc. I wonder how often he has to clean the spittle from his keyboard?
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  #108  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:55 PM
master gunner master gunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercorvette View Post
You people that are responding to all these side issues that have nothing to do with the driveway incident are falling into a trap of discussing and debating issues that have nothing to do with the initial post.

The argument can not be won if the discussion is limited to whether the officers that were at the scene acted properly, so when faced with an un-winnable argument the only thing left to do is to throw in topics and side issues that are not pertinent to the issue being discussed
Those that can do.

Those that can't whine.



Then there are us old farts.



ps: Silver you are right on the beam.



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Last edited by master gunner; 07-20-2009 at 09:00 PM.
  #109  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:44 PM
Red Dirt Dave Red Dirt Dave is offline
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Some wise person said that we each get to pick the ditch we will die in.

I will not pick the ditch of disobeying an officer who does not know if I am a good guy or a bad guy.

I think that a lot of the other unfortunate situations referenced in this thread could have been avoided by the reasonable application of intellect prior to puffing up the chest, spouting about "my rights" and picking the closest ditch.

You can't fight it out in a court of law if you are dead.

If I was with the officers responding to the call in the original post, everyone I don't know would be suspect. And no one would get to hold a weapon but me and my team. That is simple, basic and entirely rational.

I applaud the good neighbors who responded, and wonder where all the other neighbors were.
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  #110  
Old 07-21-2009, 02:56 PM
master gunner master gunner is offline
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"I applaud the good neighbors who responded, and wonder where all the other neighbors were."


When the wolfs are out the sheep hide.

Then the sheep dogs and wolf hounds can be seen.

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  #111  
Old 07-21-2009, 05:49 PM
SISUltra SISUltra is offline
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Wow five pages. I think this is my all time longest running thread on the internet lol.
  #112  
Old 07-21-2009, 06:16 PM
Thursday Thursday is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercorvette View Post
You people
Whoa, what exactly do you mean by "You people?" Na I'm just yankin your chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SISUltra View Post
Wow five pages. I think this is my all time longest running thread on the internet lol.
Congrats haha, btw tell your father he is welcome in my neighborhood anytime!
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  #113  
Old 07-21-2009, 07:46 PM
silvercorvette silvercorvette is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
Whoa, what exactly do you mean by "You people?" Na I'm just yankin your chain.


Congrats haha, btw tell your father he is welcome in my neighborhood anytime!
Sorry there is still some New York in me I didn't get rid of yet, change that to y'awl
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  #114  
Old 07-23-2009, 09:37 PM
unilineartuba unilineartuba is offline
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Oh my God, I cant believe you...

What the hell is it with the Weaver's and the Davidians? Did you know them personally or something? They burnt.

Just like the crazies and the Kool-Aid. Just like the crazies who poisoned themselves who thought aliens would come and beam them up to heaven... Im sorry, I dont buy it.

That Weaver guy, I feel for his family. But if you got a problem, dont tease the SWAT team and the negotiatiors. One unit should have responded to this Weaver situation. And they should have taken him away. He DID go to prison ya know. Anyway, I must be forgetting something. But I said I feel for his family. Oh yeah, and he displayed all the symptoms of being a crazy Aryan survivalist kook. Lots of people live in the woods peacefully, maybe he forgot how to deal with people - I mean the neighbors too. That how it all started. He felt he was owed a piece of land or something. Big deal.

And one thing that makes me immolate, and want to immolate YOU is the word SHEEPLE that you keep using. You gotta stop that. I mean come on. I know you read a book with that in the title. You are a child, you are so impressionable. Maybe you will grow out of it. But I dont care.

Do you remember the Toyota commercial where these little demons with Toyotas went around chasing these people with sheep heads? I actually contacted Toyota and basically said "How dare you." Soon after, they stopped showing it. I will take partial credit

I know its not a sheep but here is a picture of Progunner. The one with the horns...

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  #115  
Old 07-23-2009, 10:00 PM
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Tim Burke Tim Burke is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unilineartuba View Post
He DID go to prison ya know. Anyway, I must be forgetting something.
At least 3 things.
  1. Weaver was acquited.
  2. He won a civil case.
  3. To stay on topic.
You aren't the only one to forget #3, though.
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