What's wrong with idpa? - Page 5 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 12-11-2019, 08:16 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,153
Unusual, usually takes two or three cops to get off 30 rounds. Reloads from those horizontal Velcro pouches aren't easy.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:17 PM
Tom Freeman's Avatar
Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
More Cowbell...
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I have never heard of any LEO shooting 30+ rounds in a gunfight....
https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/us/co...obe/index.html

RIP Officer Swasey.
__________________
I am a rather brilliant surgeon, perhaps I can help you with that hump
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:32 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,704
LEO firing 30+ rounds in a gun fight....

I am referring to a single LEO needing to stop a single threat.....not a collective group of LEO's in a standoff situation, with some shooting suppressive fire to keep a threat from shooting around a window, door, or wall.....

If a suspect is in a stand-off situation, inside a building or home.....a pistol is not the best tool for the job.....and an accurate AR style rifle or a good high capacity shotgun may be the best option....

I have a RIA VR-80 12 gauge shotgun with a 19 round magazine, that looks like an AR rifle, and has similar operating controls.... the shotgun has a full picatinny rail, and I mounted a compensator and a reflex red dot sight.....It shoots rifled slugs with excellent accuracy, and also shoots 00buck with good results at 25 yards or so, and would be a good option for suppressive fire in a stand off situation.....

In an extreme stand-off situation where the suspect is slaughtering people in a home or building, a good .300 Win mag round with armor piercing bullets could easily shoot through a concrete block wall if the suspect is at a known position inside...… I have tested my .300 Win mag rifle with armor piercing bullets, and have shot through 2" of mild steel.... The US military has moved to the .300 Win Mag round for their sniper teams to extend their effective range vs. the .308....
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 12-15-2019, 07:37 PM
Tim Burke's Avatar
Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: NC
Posts: 10,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I am referring to a single LEO needing to stop a single threat
Like this?
__________________
TB., NC
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 12-16-2019, 02:25 AM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I am referring to a single LEO needing to stop a single threat.....not a collective group of LEO's in a standoff situation, with some shooting suppressive fire to keep a threat from shooting around a window, door, or wall.....

If a suspect is in a stand-off situation, inside a building or home.....a pistol is not the best tool for the job.....and an accurate AR style rifle or a good high capacity shotgun may be the best option....

I have a RIA VR-80 12 gauge shotgun with a 19 round magazine, that looks like an AR rifle, and has similar operating controls.... the shotgun has a full picatinny rail, and I mounted a compensator and a reflex red dot sight.....It shoots rifled slugs with excellent accuracy, and also shoots 00buck with good results at 25 yards or so, and would be a good option for suppressive fire in a stand off situation.....

In an extreme stand-off situation where the suspect is slaughtering people in a home or building, a good .300 Win mag round with armor piercing bullets could easily shoot through a concrete block wall if the suspect is at a known position inside... I have tested my .300 Win mag rifle with armor piercing bullets, and have shot through 2" of mild steel.... The US military has moved to the .300 Win Mag round for their sniper teams to extend their effective range vs. the .308....
Isn't this the competition forum?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 12-16-2019, 05:08 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,704
Singles LEO shoots 33 times to stop a threat....

The above scenario is very rare and unusual to say the least.....the attacker started shooting at the LEO while he was still sitting in his patrol vehicle....

The officer shot 13 rounds through his squad car windshield....the assailant shot his 9mm to empty, and went back to his vehicle to get another handgun.....a Bersa .380. The officer got out of his squad car while the assailant was moving to get another gun, and the officer , reloaded as he was moving to the back of his squad car. The officer emptied another another full mag, and that didn't seem to phase the attacker...

The LEO then moved away from his vehicle and took a prone position on a grassy area by a tree, and saw the assailant on the other side of his squad car....the LEO, told himself to settle down and take aim......he was able to make head shots that stopped the attack, and the criminal later died at the hospital.

The LEO was using a Glock 21 .45acp. There was no indication of the type of bullet profile used .....was it .45acp ball ammo? The lone assailant had been hit 14 times during the 56 seconds in the shoot out. The lone assailant was most likely in an adrenaline rush, which allowed him to stay in the fight, but would most likely have bled out to the point his blood pressure would have dropped and he would have passed out. As mentioned, this is a very rare occurrence to shoot 33 rounds in a gunfight that lasted less than a minute, and the bank robbing assailant had previously vowed he would not be taken alive.....the assailant attacked, was hit many times, but only the head shots stopped the attack. Unfortunately, the human body can take a great deal of punishment if a gunshot does not hit and disrupt the central nervous system....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 12-16-2019 at 05:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:19 PM
Colt4570 Colt4570 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: N.E.Ohio
Posts: 7
SO,,,,,,,,,,, What is Wrong with IDPA ?
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:06 PM
RickB's Avatar
RickB RickB is offline
1911 Aficionado
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Not Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 21,639
Some people don't like it, and want to change it into something that someone else won't like.
__________________
If you're not shooting you should be moving. If you're not moving you should be reloading. If you're not shooting, moving, or reloading, you should be taping or picking brass. - Z.C.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:47 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 1,613
Every rulebook iteration has a rule or two that absolutely ruin the sport. For a while it was the flat foot reload, and now it's the one second per point scoring system. It is what it is, but it could be better.
I think I enjoyed it more in 2004 when the rulebook was a bit more of a mess.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 01-07-2020, 08:31 AM
pat_jones pat_jones is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt4570 View Post
SO,,,,,,,,,,, What is Wrong with IDPA ?
All the effort they go they go thru to be "not USPSA."

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 01-08-2020, 10:01 PM
RickB's Avatar
RickB RickB is offline
1911 Aficionado
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Not Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 21,639
Except, it's now one iteration away from being "USPSA with a vest".
The 2017 rule book got rid of most everything that made IDPA distinctive, apparently in the interest of dumbing it down for dabblers.
__________________
If you're not shooting you should be moving. If you're not moving you should be reloading. If you're not shooting, moving, or reloading, you should be taping or picking brass. - Z.C.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:04 AM
Tim Burke's Avatar
Tim Burke Tim Burke is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: NC
Posts: 10,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Except, it's now one iteration away from being "USPSA with a vest".
That's one view, and I understand why you say that.
I'd say that the 1 second/point scoring has it as far away from USPSA as ever.
__________________
TB., NC
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 01-09-2020, 10:43 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Except, it's now one iteration away from being "USPSA with a vest".
i think the only important difference is IDPA's focus on actual duty/carry guns, and stages where those gun won't be annoying AF to shoot. 1 reload instead of 3+, reasonable targets instead of 30-yard mini-poppers. That part is cool and tempts me to try it again with my carry gun (cz po1). It's all the other stupid faux tactical stuff that has kept me away the last 6-7 years, like dictating the shooting sequence, dumb reload rules, etc.... It's borderline dangerous to pretend that residential walls and doors actually provide 'cover'.

I think it makes alot of sense to learn how to shoot your carry gun (or a similar one) well, from concealment. If IDPA focused just on the shooting part, and left the tactical stuff for actual tactical training and instruction, it would be more attractive to me.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 01-09-2020, 10:39 PM
45dotACP 45dotACP is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
The above scenario is very rare and unusual to say the least.....the attacker started shooting at the LEO while he was still sitting in his patrol vehicle....



The officer shot 13 rounds through his squad car windshield....the assailant shot his 9mm to empty, and went back to his vehicle to get another handgun.....a Bersa .380. The officer got out of his squad car while the assailant was moving to get another gun, and the officer , reloaded as he was moving to the back of his squad car. The officer emptied another another full mag, and that didn't seem to phase the attacker...



The LEO then moved away from his vehicle and took a prone position on a grassy area by a tree, and saw the assailant on the other side of his squad car....the LEO, told himself to settle down and take aim......he was able to make head shots that stopped the attack, and the criminal later died at the hospital.



The LEO was using a Glock 21 .45acp. There was no indication of the type of bullet profile used .....was it .45acp ball ammo? The lone assailant had been hit 14 times during the 56 seconds in the shoot out. The lone assailant was most likely in an adrenaline rush, which allowed him to stay in the fight, but would most likely have bled out to the point his blood pressure would have dropped and he would have passed out. As mentioned, this is a very rare occurrence to shoot 33 rounds in a gunfight that lasted less than a minute, and the bank robbing assailant had previously vowed he would not be taken alive.....the assailant attacked, was hit many times, but only the head shots stopped the attack. Unfortunately, the human body can take a great deal of punishment if a gunshot does not hit and disrupt the central nervous system....
Officer Gramins was loaded with 230 gr. Gold Dots. Most of the hits he made were fatal. Heart, lungs, liver...lot of upper torso hits. He even tried skipping rounds off the pavement to hit the BG when he was behind a car. Remarkably cool under pressure. He had his SWAT gear in the trunk, including a fully loaded AR with all the goodies and a happy switch, but he never got to it. Bad guy had a SKS in his car and never got to that.

Pretty sure he now carries a G17 with like 120 rounds of duty ammo.

These events are most certainly outliers, but even then, he demonstrated the supreme effectiveness of excellent marksmanship and tactics over any sort of caliber or capacity debate IMO.

I like the IDPA focus on accuracy, although I could stand to be faster. I also really like that IDPA is still a valid place to shoot a revolver in competition with out having to wear that ridiculous getup that USPSA Revo shooters wear.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 01-10-2020, 11:34 PM
Rifter's Avatar
Rifter Rifter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The People's Republic of Illinois, most corrupt state in the Union.
Posts: 5,959
Back in the day when my knees were sound and I was outside doing something all the time, I spent 10 years shooting what we called "combat pistol matches". Pretty simple premise. You showed up with whatever gun you had that you could shoot reasonably well with, and shot against all the other guys who showed up. The clubs that put those matches on would set up 6 or 8 scenarios that required you to solve problems on the best way to shoot that event, and be good enough to get the hits you needed to stop the clock. There were no penalties for minor calibers and such, and you got scored on how many hits you got in the best time while completing any steps necessary. It was was great fun, improved your shooting skills tremendously over time, and you learned from observation what guns and calibers were best for getting the job done. At the peak, we'd have 80 to 100 people at matches, and LEOs from all the local PDs, sheriff's dept., and fed alphabet agencies showing up.



After ten years of that, guys started showing up with expensive guns set up for speed shooting, special holster rigs, etc. They took all the fun out of it, because the guys with the smaller guns couldn't compete any more. Even though I was up in the top rank by then shooting my 1911, I quit going. Eventually, the rules changed and they adopted a new name using letter initials like everybody does now. I can't tell you what type of game is the current descendant of those combat matches, but its really a shame that big money and shallow egos ruined something that gave a lot of people a lot of pleasure a couple weekends a month.


Kind of sounds like this new one is going back to basics similar what I used to shoot. I hope so.
__________________
Vietnam Combat Vet - U.S. Navy 1970-1974
NRA Benefactor Life Member

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice - Barry Goldwater
When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance becomes Duty - Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 01-11-2020, 12:27 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 1,613
Shallow egos? Like the guy who quit going because of the other guys with expensive guns and speed holsters?
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:09 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
Shallow egos? Like the guy who quit going because of the other guys with expensive guns and speed holsters?
well played sir.

My brother in law (who also is my best friend) just retired from a 20+ year career in law enforcement and was a detective for at least the last 10 years. For a few years he was on the SWAT team and was considered one of their best shooters. I introduced him to the shooting sports. He thought, "yeah im gonna show those guys how to shoot". Lol. he went to about 4 or 5 matches with me and always came in bottom of the pack, and I finished near the top. His ego wouldn't let him sleep at night and he stopped going. He's still my best friend though.
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:43 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,153
I could tell stories like that, people who let their ego get in the way of their shooting enjoyment and improvement.

Also excuses:
"I've got to practice, I'm not good enough for "comps.""
"I haven't got a nice enough gun."
"The rules are silly."
"It's dangerous to fast draw and run around with a gun in your hand."
"I'm not going to dress up" (CAS)
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 01-11-2020, 10:40 AM
Rifter's Avatar
Rifter Rifter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The People's Republic of Illinois, most corrupt state in the Union.
Posts: 5,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
well played sir.

My brother in law (who also is my best friend) just retired from a 20+ year career in law enforcement and was a detective for at least the last 10 years. For a few years he was on the SWAT team and was considered one of their best shooters. I introduced him to the shooting sports. He thought, "yeah im gonna show those guys how to shoot". Lol. he went to about 4 or 5 matches with me and always came in bottom of the pack, and I finished near the top. His ego wouldn't let him sleep at night and he stopped going. He's still my best friend though.



As I mentioned, we got a lot of alphabet agency types at those matches. DEA, FBI, ATF, Border Patrol, etc. The Border Patrol guys were great. Good shots, there to have fun, etc. The absolute worst were the FBI and ATF guys. Complete ash hoes if you get my drift. The senior civilian shooters whupped their butts just about every match. They finally quit coming. The county sheriffs were great as well. Stand up guys. The attitude that a lot of those guys exhibited wasn't limited to just them however. A lot of the civilian types who thought their stuff didn't stink were just as bad, and got poned just as much as the agency types. The majority of people who came, were good sports, tried hard to improve themselves, and had fun.
__________________
Vietnam Combat Vet - U.S. Navy 1970-1974
NRA Benefactor Life Member

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice - Barry Goldwater
When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance becomes Duty - Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Rifter; 01-11-2020 at 10:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 01-11-2020, 11:18 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 1,613
It's definitely a wakeup call the first few matches you do. Especially if you have prior shooting experience in a non competitive environment. I think everyone who competes has been there. You can then make a choice. If you enjoy the sport and want to get better, you come back. I am good friends with a handful of cops and a half dozen Air Marshalls and the ones that I see at matches week after week are clearly leap frogging their peers when it comes to gunhandling and skills.
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 01-11-2020, 12:13 PM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South
Posts: 2,607
I did the exact thing Rifter did. I'd go to my club and shoot "combat pistol and carbine matches." The stages were always different and most of us didn't game the stage. In other words, we took the stage at face value, didn't plan our mag changes, and all shot it in the logical order.

I moved 18 months ago and now shoot both IDPA and USPSA once or twice a month at a big club 90 minutes away. I'm having fun and not really worried about my scores, although I check Practiscore as soon as I get home. I still don't analyze the course ahead of time, unless everyone is doing the exact same thing. Normally I just shoot left to right. I do it just to have fun, and improve my shooting and gun handling skills. And I've really been enjoying it.

I'm competitive. But, if one can avoid being caught up in the "I've got to win my class or the day sucks" mentality, then IDPA and USPSA can still be fun and worthwhile. I've made a bunch of friends and I know that I've improved. All is good.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:04 PM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,360
Deleted my comment, it wasn't relative to the topic.
__________________
Ex-Military, 20+ years 3-Gun competitor, Colt certified Armorer, NRA Instructor, NSRT Officer-Retired, LGS Guru.

Last edited by M-Peltier; 01-12-2020 at 08:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:43 AM
jmorris jmorris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,737
Quote:
Some people don't like it, and want to change it into something that someone else won't like.
After Bill lost control, I found it to be like playing a game with a child. If they are loosing, they change the rules to help them win, when you continue to beat them, they change them again, trying to gain a perceived advantage, despite not having the abilities you have.

As soon as they dropped the “stability of rules” part they went all over the place running many off and going more than full circle.

Anyone thinking there is a “tactical advantage” to stopping and standing still if your firearm is empty in the open, until you complete a reload then start moving again, should have their head checked. A stupid rule made by someone trying to “level the playing field” for people who couldn’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

Now they switched back to rules closer to USPSA that what IDPA was before Joyce took over.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 01-17-2020, 10:18 AM
waktasz waktasz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SE PA
Posts: 1,613
Part of the rules changes has to do with how to properly officiate a sport that is become more "serious" as time goes on. The old rules left too much up to interpretation. That's why the flat foot reload came into place...because at the time they couldn't figure out a way to come up with a rule that would be called 100% fairly every time, so they eliminated moving reloads all together. Thankfully that didn't last very long
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 01-17-2020, 11:43 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 21,153
Fault lines have greatly simplified "cover" administration, but the limitation to one fault line per "position of cover" means either that you can be behind the fault line but not behind cover or will have to lean so far as to be unstable*. Or both with a wide target array around a corner and its single fault line.

*There was for a short time a stage design policy against fault lines requiring dangerously unstable leans from a physical barricade, but I can't find it in the current rules or match administration guide.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:00 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved