M69 Romanian Trainer - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-18-2019, 08:53 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
M69 Romanian Trainer

Yesterday I met a friend at the range, and we shot a nice variety of guns for a couple hours--1911s, Ruger PC carbine, his AR, CZ 75B, etc etc.

After that we went across the street to the gun store. As soon as I walked in, I saw this old rifle on the used-rifle rack and thought it might be a 22LR trainer of some sort. Sure enough, it was an M69/M1969 Romanian trainer. It had just been put out that morning.

Looked it over briefly and bought it on the spot. I know that they are reputed to be quite accurate, and I have never had one to play with. Took it home, took it apart pretty far, did a deep clean and polished the metal parts where they rub. When I pulled the trigger group, I discovered that the 23" barrel's feed ramp was part of the TG, so it was extremely easy to polish up. Ran patches in the bore. Shot a couple of CCI Quiet rounds into my homemade bullet trap to check it for full function. Planned on taking it to work today to check it out.

It is having feeding issues. Definitely the magazine, so I ordered a new reproduction one from Csspecs. The online reviews are good; if this does the trick, I will order a couple more.

I have a tie to Romania, because as part of my Army career I spent two years working in our embassy in Bucharest, in the Defense Attache Office. The Army also taught me Romanian (six months, full time job studying the language) for that tour.

So here's a couple pics of the gun. Some PO painted the stock black. Also here is a nice article about them.
Attached Thumbnails
M69 all.JPG   M69 detail.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-19-2019 at 12:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-18-2019, 08:58 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Perhaps you would like to see how it shot.....BTW trigger pull is 5.5#, with a very long overtravel. Pretty horrendous actually. The inside of the stock looks like it was worked on with a hatchet and screwdriver.

Fired ten rounds of SK Magazine, the cheapest bulk SK. Since the mag was pretty wonky, I fed the rounds in by hand. First target, five rounds at 40 feet just to season and warm the bore. A 3/4" group. I struggled with seeing the front sight.

Second five shots were at 75 feet. Four shots = 1 3/8". One called flyer; still struggling with the front sight, as the vertical spread shows.

I think it's a shooter!

I have some rings that I think I can get to work on this narrow European (8mm) rail. I'll stick sling studs on it too (the originals had been removed for some reason), mainly so I can use a bipod.
Attached Thumbnails
M69 irons first 10.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-18-2019 at 09:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:08 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Did I mention that it cost me $86, tax included?
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:45 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Gee whiz, look what I just found in my closet.....

....a Weaver V22-A 3X - 6X scope.
Attached Thumbnails
M69 1in  Weaver scope.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:57 PM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alabama and Florida, US
Posts: 10,980
Nice score. I've wanted one of those for a while, but never seem to get around to finding one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
…I have a tie to Romania, because when as part of my Army career I spent two years working in our embassy in Bucharest, in the Defense Attache Office. The Army also taught me Romanian (six months, full time job studying the language) for that tour…
Did you know or work with LTC John Angel while in Romania? I came over on an early Partnership for Peace tour while he was there. Shot those .22 trainers as well as all of the other small arms and even crewed their tanks. They treated us like royalty while we were there. Unfortunately the Romanians were not treated nearly as well when they came stateside.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:59 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBBBill View Post
Nice score. I've wanted one of those for a while, but never seem to get around to finding one.



Did you know or work with LTC John Angel while in Romania? I came over on an early Partnership for Peace tour while he was there. Shot those .22 trainers as well as all of the other small arms and even crewed their tanks. They treated us like royalty while we were there. Unfortunately the Romanians were not treated nearly as well when they came stateside.
Nope. I was there from 1987 - 89. When was he there?

Heading to a gun show tmw, specifically to look for more M69s.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-19-2019, 09:55 AM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
An $80 gun obviously needs a $200 scope. Leupold VX Freedom Rimfire, 3 - 9X.

I was able to get some 3/8" air rifle rings to work with two layers of tape on the jaws. The tape is chrome tape with a sticky back, from an auto parts store.

Shootin' it on Monday.
Attached Thumbnails
M69 Leupold.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-19-2019 at 04:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:48 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 5,834
I was able to purchase one at a "Big 5" some 30 years ago. It is in unfired condition.

Being "unfired" it had feed issues as well.

The original magazine and "copies" didn't fit correctly. As I recall I had to reform the magazine well slightly and all was fine after that.

What is interesting and the only firearm I've ever seen with this feature is the barrel is grooved the entire length as if it is threaded. Sort of like the serrations on a shotgun barrel but they cover the entire circumference of the barrel. Not sure of the reason maybe just unfinished but a cool feature.

It wears a red dot for rodent control even though the original flip up sights are "dead nuts on"!

Probably the best $69 firearm ever!

Smiles,
__________________
John, Retired LEO, CA POST Certified Firearms Instructor, NRA Endmt., NRA Instructor, NRA RSO, Blue Lives Matter
Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-19-2019, 04:06 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
I was able to purchase one at a "Big 5" some 30 years ago. It is in unfired condition.

Being "unfired" it had feed issues as well.

The original magazine and "copies" didn't fit correctly. As I recall I had to reform the magazine well slightly and all was fine after that.

What is interesting and the only firearm I've ever seen with this feature is the barrel is grooved the entire length as if it is threaded. Sort of like the serrations on a shotgun barrel but they cover the entire circumference of the barrel. Not sure of the reason maybe just unfinished but a cool feature.

It wears a red dot for rodent control even though the original flip up sights are "dead nuts on"!

Probably the best $69 firearm ever!

Smiles,
Agreed.

Bought it some Uncle Mike's sling studs, and paint. That shiny black has to go. Picked a Rustoleum camo color called Deep Forest Green, but to me it's more of a gray/brown. It has lots more character than the black.

At a small gun show this morning I got a brick of Wolf Match Extra for $45. Ten years old, so the German stuff not the new Eley version (which seems to shoot just as well). This is the only ammo that runs neck and neck with the SK Pistol Match Special. I will shoot it in the M69, my CZ 457, and also my Armscor M14Y. Both the Wolf ME and SK PMS normally go for about $90/brick, so I jumped on that deal.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:14 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Couldn't resist, had to go check it out.

Unfortunately the scope proved to be too low, and @25 yards was very blurry (no AO). I maxed out the vertical adjustment trying to get it to my POA, which was a 1" orange stick-on. Since that didn't work--it was still 2" low--I covered my last shots with this black Shoot'n'see and continued shooting at the orange one, to get this group.

Promising but of course I need to test it in better conditions. The hole to the right was the first shot with the PMS, after five rounds of Magazine to warm/lube the barrel, and sight in. Swapping in some high see-thru rings (Burris?) and my cheap AO scope. Still gonna try for Monday.
Attached Thumbnails
M69 1st 5 scope.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-19-2019 at 08:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:50 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 5,834
Romanian M69

Romanian M69
Blowing up the photo doesn't do the serrations around the barrel any justice, really looks cool!

Click image for larger version

Name:	20170811_182301[4458].jpg
Views:	13
Size:	2.99 MB
ID:	566246

Living in the "woods" makes for interesting rodent hunting: Norway roof Rat?

CB cap in above right hip out eye ball!

Ouch!

Last edited by jjfitch; 10-20-2019 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Add photo
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-20-2019, 01:09 AM
BBBBill BBBBill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alabama and Florida, US
Posts: 10,980
Looks like a fun little gun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
Nope. I was there from 1987 - 89. When was he there?…
I think he got there in '89. He was there for a while.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-20-2019, 09:41 AM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
Romanian M69
Blowing up the photo doesn't do the serrations around the barrel any justice, really looks cool!
Thanks. Where did you get the clamp-on pic rail? What brand? I have a UTG rail with built-in rings rather than a pic rail, but it is too wide when fully clamped (8.67mm). The rail on my M69 is only about 8mm. The only thing that has worked for me is the vertically-split high rings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBBBill View Post
Looks like a fun little gun.

I think he got there in '89. He was there for a while.
I left in May or June of '89, so probably we just missed each other.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-20-2019 at 12:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-20-2019, 11:00 PM
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 307
A big "like" for this thread, Tom.

How does one say "like" in Romanian?

Thanks for the photographs.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-20-2019, 11:47 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
A big "like" for this thread, Tom.

How does one say "like" in Romanian?

Thanks for the photographs.
Imi pare bine. (Literally, "To me it seems well.")

BTW I'm suspecting that I have a problem.....I've just been cruising the online sellers for Brno Model 1s and 2s. Realistically I have no need for one, and they are very similar to my 457 Trainer. I'm thinking it would be nice to have a good representative of one of the originals from the 50s/60s.

Edit: Also looking at Norinco JW15s. And there's even an Egyptian clone!
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-21-2019 at 09:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-21-2019, 02:34 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
OK, back from the range with some results.

Not as good as I had hoped; but perhaps as good as I could reasonably expect?

After sighting in, shot the SK Pistol Match Special, then the Wolf and the Norma Match, after about 10 rounds each for lubing. All are 5-shot groups @ 25 yards, 9X on the scope.

Got some good-to-decent 4-shot groupings, but this gun is too prone to flyers and general inconsistency. No operator-error flyers this time. The circled number is the SK's average for 4-shot groupings.

Out of curiosity, I did an informal check on the chamber tightness with a snap cap. My 457 is noticeably tighter than my Savage Mk I Target, RIA M14Y or the M69, which were all similar to each other--i.e. the cap dropped in freely. The CZ needed the cap actually pushed into the chamber for the last half of its length. Yet the Savage is as good as the CZ; perhaps the bull barrel makes up for the slightly looser chamber.

Note: the Wolf is old. I used the only 50-round box with a lot # different from the rest of the brick. It was obviously added just to make a full brick. That box had noticeably more wear on it; the other boxes looked like they had never been out of the brick box. So I don't know yet how the rest of the brick will behave. The Norma Match is high-middle ammo, not in a class with the SK PMS or Wolf ME. Shot it just to see what would happen. Meh.

So as of now, I would class the CZ and Savage as my best shooters, then the RIA, then the M69. The Rock would beat the Romanian gun easily in the bullseye contest. It has a 5-shot average of .19" for four groups of SK PMS. Plus 10-round mags that work and are easily available, a standard 11mm dovetail, threaded muzzle, and a better action overall.

I'll keep the M69 as a cool curiosity, and still paint it, but probably just use it as an iron-sights range gun. Gotta run some more Wolf through it first, to see if that one box was an anomaly.
Attached Thumbnails
M69 scoped 1.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-21-2019 at 02:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-21-2019, 10:20 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
But come to think of it, I guess an average of .64 MOA for 4 of 5 shots with the SK is actually pretty good. Just because I can't get it to .48 MOA like about half of the CZ's groups of SK (.72 MOA overall for five 5-shot groups), or down to a .40 MOA group like I managed once with the Savage, doesn't make the M69 a bad gun.

I have to bear in mind that the M69 hasn't exactly had a pampered life. Possibly it would benefit from some deep bore cleaning.

In other breaking M69 news, I sanded and primed the stock. I'll give it a couple days to cure, then hit it with very light sanding and the color coats.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-21-2019 at 10:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-22-2019, 05:19 PM
Ragnarok Ragnarok is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: OK
Posts: 151
I own one of those Romanians. As far as troublesome feeding these work best with round nose bullets....may not feed worth a hoot with hollowpoints.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-22-2019, 07:03 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 5,834
TominMo:

"Where did you get the clamp-on pic rail? What brand? I have a UTG rail with built-in rings rather than a pic rail, but it is too wide when fully clamped (8.67mm). The rail on my M69 is only about 8mm. The only thing that has worked for me is the vertically-split high rings."

It's been several years since ordering the rail. As I recall it was for a narrow .22 rail.

You are right it barely holds it securely, but it works.

Smiles,
__________________
John, Retired LEO, CA POST Certified Firearms Instructor, NRA Endmt., NRA Instructor, NRA RSO, Blue Lives Matter
Gun Control: Acquire target, align sights, press trigger, only after you have identified your target and what is beyond it and made the decision to shoot!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-23-2019, 10:17 AM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
Hopped (metaphorically) over to Rimfire Central to get advice from the dedicated-rimfire guys. Looks like a good cleaning of the chamber and leade might well improve the M1969's accuracy. (I found a stamping on the right side of the barrel, near the front sight, that ID'd it as an M1969 ("M1969 .22 Cal Romania"), so that is how I will refer to it in the future. And just now I found the CAI import marking just below it.

Basically, for the chamber/leade area, Hoppes #9 mixed with Kroil, using a 6mm brass core/copper bristle jag.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-24-2019 at 09:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-26-2019, 09:32 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
What it looks like now. Since a PO had already (badly) painted it, I thought what the heck. I know that the wood under there is gonna be nothing special, so it got a little makeover. That's an Appleseed sling with Uncle Mike's studs and QD swivels. Taken at night, so the lighting isn't the best. Rustoleum primer and Deep Forest Green camo paint.

BTW the CSSpecs mag worked out fine, so I ordered two more.
Attached Thumbnails
M1969 grn1.JPG   M1969 grn2.JPG  
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise

Last edited by TominMO; 10-26-2019 at 09:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:03 AM
TominMO TominMO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 69
Posts: 399
This thread is continued over at Rimfire Central. Here is the link to it.
__________________
"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian" -- Cochise
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:24 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved