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  #76  
Old 10-13-2019, 01:43 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Lol, you are disproving yourself by describing first generation attempts to create JHP ammo, you do realize that nowadays we have worked out all the issues and at the very worst if the round doesn't open it is still superior to a flat point or soft? At the very worst if the round doesn't open it is still superior to a flat point round because the cavity will act as a cutting edge while probably still opening partially.

There is zero reason to use anything else because even if it fails to open it will still act JUST LIKE YOU PERFER THEM TO. Even though that is considered a bullet failure by today's standards since the goal posts have moved on.
the higher coast of non-expanding hollow point ammo from short bbl calibers like I mentioned is one of the reasons to buy the lower cost same performance solids.
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  #77  
Old 10-17-2019, 10:24 AM
mr380acp mr380acp is offline
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For the 380 I only use ball. Thats my $.02
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  #78  
Old 10-17-2019, 12:55 PM
JB6464 JB6464 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
you do realize that nowadays we have worked out all the issues and at the very worst if the round doesn't open it is still superior to a flat point or soft? At the very worst if the round doesn't open it is still superior to a flat point round because the cavity will act as a cutting edge while probably still opening partially.
Not buying it being superior , if the bullet doesn't open up it first fills up with material and that could cause the bullet to change coarse and slow down .
Second , since the Solid Flat Nose bullet will hit the targeted area with Force and Energy like a freight train and keep going , the HP will start to slow down from it not expanding and picking up packing material along the way .

Last edited by JB6464; 10-17-2019 at 05:48 PM.
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  #79  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:56 PM
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Rifter Rifter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack the toad View Post
Just for the record, I am in the "use hollow points " camp. However, even super large diameters directly in the brain are non fatal. I won't bother to post the story , but google Phineas Gage sometime.

Such wounds are very, very rare, however. A head shot is almost universally acknowledged to be a killing shot, if the bullet gets inside the skull bone. Weird things happen though. My dad had a friend from the war who got shot in the head at near point blank range by a German officer's Luger near the end of the war. The bullet entered the front of the helmet, hit the skull and gouged a furrow around one side, then exited through the back side of the helmet. I felt the groove when I was a little kid. There were a lot of guys walking around for decades after the war with hunks of shrapnel, bullets, and other bits and pieces that should've killed them.



As for claiming that a hollow point that doesn't expand is no different than a soft point solid, that would be wrong. Hollow points have a tendency to yaw when they get plugged up and don't expand. All that does is slow them down even faster making them even less effective. A typical soft point or flat point solid tends to go in a straight line, destroying tissue as it goes. Most people who use such bullets for hunting know that because they've traced the wound channels. They also don't slow down as fast as a bullet with an irregular nose shape (as in a plugged hollow point).


I don't have anything against hollow points in particular, but they are not nearly as effective as a lot of people think they are. That fact isn't all that hard to show either if you can get past the advertising hype and internet BS that always comes along with such recommendation.
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  #80  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:57 PM
Oldguy9 Oldguy9 is offline
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Maybe This?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
has anyone found a decent video of .44spl hollow point fired into ballistic gel from a 3" bbl Charter Arms Bulldog? I've found a few for a 3.25" bbl officers sized 45acp but nothing for a short bbl 44spl.
A good article on factory and reloads from a Bulldog.

https://rangehot.com/44-smith-wesson...allistic-test/.
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  #81  
Old 10-17-2019, 03:12 PM
Oldguy9 Oldguy9 is offline
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Well...you can make more money by coming out with a new wonder bullet every 36 months..eg. a polymer tipped wonder thingie.

As for stopping them everything I have read indicates that that goal is tough. Ayoob once wrote that even with the heart shredded by a high energy hollowpoint-the brain has sufficient oxygenation for 10-15 seconds to pull a trigger.

So if your assailant is really doped up-or really full of rage (which may be based on hallucinations-not on what you did) stopping someone with less than a 12 gauge slug is a sometime proposition. The best that can be done, it seems, if lethal force is justified, is to hit early-hit often.

As for bullet shap- a flat appears to work pretty well. And since hollow points frequently don't expand... maybe something simple and flat is best(?)
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  #82  
Old 10-20-2019, 05:46 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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The wide flat point & SWC bullets have been well proven in the game fields. However in the game fields we aren't usually concerned with over penetration.
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  #83  
Old 10-21-2019, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Vaccaro View Post
The wide flat point & SWC bullets have been well proven in the game fields. However in the game fields we aren't usually concerned with over penetration.

And we put way too much emphasis on it for defensive shooting as well. The FBI has said for years that over penetration of defensive loads is statistically nonexistant.
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  #84  
Old 10-21-2019, 06:14 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Something to keep in mind is that the projectile in a “overpenetration” scenario from a handgun has lost the vast majority of energy. This is not a FMJ at 3000 FPS.
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  #85  
Old 10-25-2019, 11:03 AM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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a bullet that has the ability to go all the way through is going to do more anyway
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  #86  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:19 PM
JMB-1911A1 JMB-1911A1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
the higher coast of non-expanding hollow point ammo from short bbl calibers like I mentioned is one of the reasons to buy the lower cost same performance solids.
But you're back to an old argument. There really is no high quality FMJ rounds. Their all range ammo. I want nickel plated cases and quality low flash powder too.

Convincing me to remove the Hornady 135gr Critical Duty from my 9mm for some Wal-mart range ammo is going to be hard to do. It appears the FBI is going to be even harder to convince .

https://press.hornady.com/release/20...tion-contract/
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  #87  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:36 PM
jtq jtq is online now
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Originally Posted by JMB-1911A1 View Post
But you're back to an old argument. There really is no high quality FMJ rounds. Their all range ammo. I want nickel plated cases and quality low flash powder too.
A valid point, and one folks should consider.
Quote:
Convincing me to remove the Hornady 135gr Critical Duty from my 9mm for some Wal-mart range ammo is going to be hard to do. It appears the FBI is going to be even harder to convince .
Of course we're on a 1911 Forum, and most of us are shooting 1911's in .45 Auto, so we're probably going to agree you need those super bullets in your 9mm shooter.
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  #88  
Old 10-25-2019, 03:11 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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Originally Posted by JMB-1911A1 View Post
But you're back to an old argument. There really is no high quality FMJ rounds. Their all range ammo. I want nickel plated cases and quality low flash powder too.

Convincing me to remove the Hornady 135gr Critical Duty from my 9mm for some Wal-mart range ammo is going to be hard to do. It appears the FBI is going to be even harder to convince .

https://press.hornady.com/release/20...tion-contract/
well, you are correct partially here.in order to get what you want in fmj you will pay the same price as the hollow points. but wth does a 9mm have to do with my topic? I guess you missed some of this thread.
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  #89  
Old 10-25-2019, 05:09 PM
warbird1 warbird1 is offline
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I have been looking at Underwood Lehigh Extreme Defense ammo. It's fluted ammo 45acp+p. It's 120 gr @1420 fps. Loaded in nickel cases. What say ya'll on these.
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  #90  
Old 10-25-2019, 06:54 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMB-1911A1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
the higher coast of non-expanding hollow point ammo from short bbl calibers like I mentioned is one of the reasons to buy the lower cost same performance solids.
But you're back to an old argument. There really is no high quality FMJ rounds. Their all range ammo. I want nickel plated cases and quality low flash powder too.

Convincing me to remove the Hornady 135gr Critical Duty from my 9mm for some Wal-mart range ammo is going to be hard to do. It appears the FBI is going to be even harder to convince [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG].

https://press.hornady.com/release/20...tion-contract/
Here's a try. HST 147 does everything better than critical duty
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  #91  
Old 10-25-2019, 06:55 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by warbird1 View Post
I have been looking at Underwood Lehigh Extreme Defense ammo. It's fluted ammo 45acp+p. It's 120 gr @1420 fps. Loaded in nickel cases. What say ya'll on these.
Gimmick. I don't like how they do vs real tissue vs a traditional expanding round
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  #92  
Old 10-25-2019, 08:28 PM
BRoger BRoger is offline
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Originally Posted by JB6464 View Post
Not buying it being superior , if the bullet doesn't open up it first fills up with material and that could cause the bullet to change coarse and slow down .
Second , since the Solid Flat Nose bullet will hit the targeted area with Force and Energy like a freight train and keep going , the HP will start to slow down from it not expanding and picking up packing material along the way .
No self defense calibers hit like a "freight train." Incapacitation is caused by a rapid drop in blood pressure. Rounds that cause more tissue/organ/blood vessel damage, result in more bleeding (i.e. faster drop in blood pressure.) Hollow points with sharp pettles cause far more damage than a FMJ could ever hope to. They also tend to produce tighter groups. FMJ tend to over penetrate, which is undesirable for a number of reasons. Far less energy transferred, and a danger to bystanders/family members down range of bad guys. There are a number of excellent self defense loads available. Find one that feeds reliably in your pistol, and you're good to go. It doesn't take 500rds of JHP to figure out it your pistol feeds it reliably.
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  #93  
Old 10-25-2019, 08:35 PM
BRoger BRoger is offline
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Originally Posted by Oldguy9 View Post
Well...you can make more money by coming out with a new wonder bullet every 36 months..eg. a polymer tipped wonder thingie.

As for stopping them everything I have read indicates that that goal is tough. Ayoob once wrote that even with the heart shredded by a high energy hollowpoint-the brain has sufficient oxygenation for 10-15 seconds to pull a trigger.

So if your assailant is really doped up-or really full of rage (which may be based on hallucinations-not on what you did) stopping someone with less than a 12 gauge slug is a sometime proposition. The best that can be done, it seems, if lethal force is justified, is to hit early-hit often.

As for bullet shap- a flat appears to work pretty well. And since hollow points frequently don't expand... maybe something simple and flat is best(?)
Premium modern hollow points (HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T....) have a very good record of expanding reliably, especially in self defense scenarios where you're typically only worried about shooting through clothing.
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  #94  
Old 10-25-2019, 08:39 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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Originally Posted by BRoger View Post
Premium modern hollow points (HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T....) have a very good record of expanding reliably, especially in self defense scenarios where you're typically only worried about shooting through clothing.
I haven't found that to be accurate regarding what this thread is about. can you provide a source for this reliable expansion from 3" bbl. in .45acp? thanks.
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  #95  
Old 10-25-2019, 10:06 PM
BRoger BRoger is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
I haven't found that to be accurate regarding what this thread is about. can you provide a source for this reliable expansion from 3" bbl. in .45acp? thanks.
The issue is velocity, not the projectile. If you don't limit yourself to a subcompact, you'll see the projectiles performing as designed. Having said that, HST should still perform well out of short barrels.
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  #96  
Old 10-25-2019, 10:29 PM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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Originally Posted by BRoger View Post
The issue is velocity, not the projectile. If you don't limit yourself to a subcompact, you'll see the projectiles performing as designed. Having said that, HST should still perform well out of short barrels.
if we aren't going to limit ourselves we could use a rifle, but that takes away from the topic of discussion.
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  #97  
Old 10-26-2019, 07:08 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by warbird1 View Post
I have been looking at Underwood Lehigh Extreme Defense ammo. It's fluted ammo 45acp+p. It's 120 gr @1420 fps. Loaded in nickel cases. What say ya'll on these.
Ahhh, that’s a frangible I believe. Great for shooting pumpkins full of water.
I wouldn’t shoot it out of a bargain .45 either!
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  #98  
Old 10-26-2019, 07:11 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alabama-Ohio View Post
if we aren't going to limit ourselves we could use a rifle, but that takes away from the topic of discussion.
As mentioned earlier.....they DO make projectiles specifically designed for short barreled weapons. You are trying to find a diamond in a goats butt by asking a quality round such as an HST to expand the same as it would from a full size 1911.
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  #99  
Old 10-26-2019, 09:19 AM
jtq jtq is online now
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
Ahhh, that’s a frangible I believe. Great for shooting pumpkins full of water.
I wouldn’t shoot it out of a bargain .45 either!
These are not frangible rounds, they are all copper bullets and designed as deep penetrators.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/all/45...e-120gr-bullet
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  #100  
Old 10-26-2019, 11:29 AM
Alabama-Ohio Alabama-Ohio is offline
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Originally Posted by Nitro.45 View Post
As mentioned earlier.....they DO make projectiles specifically designed for short barreled weapons. You are trying to find a diamond in a goats butt by asking a quality round such as an HST to expand the same as it would from a full size 1911.
dar dardy dar. that's why the question was posed initially.
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