do you use or your agency allow red dot sights? - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-14-2019, 04:15 PM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 794
do you use or your agency allow red dot sights?

I think most of us recognize that red dot sights are the newest thing coming for duty pistols. We do not have a policy regarding them and my boss wants me to write one. There are quit a few of our employees who have them and more talking about making the transition to them.

If you use them what kind do you have?

What success/failures are you having with them?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-14-2019, 05:03 PM
Hawkeye fan Hawkeye fan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Age: 40
Posts: 6,181
This may help you out itís from Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics. He covers the use of red dots on duty hand guns.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc12...079552b640.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-14-2019, 05:44 PM
191159 191159 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 149
It all sounds good....but the costs vs payoff will be tough to sell to any med size and above agency.

Roughly, $1500-$2000 min per officer. Need the optic, need the slide set up, new holster, training time, instructor time.

It may be an ‘optional’, but most large agencies have already shot it down for everyone due to that reason.

Plus, no one yet has come up with one that will hold up long term slide mounted.
Everyone says theirs will, but usually a couple thou, and it’s not showing up that way in long term testing.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 04-14-2019, 06:59 PM
SV 22 SV 22 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 94
I can only speak to testing on Glocks. If you utilize a 9mm, there are slide mounted options that will last. Once you go to a .40, failure rates rise to an unacceptable level.

Between training man hours and ammunition expense, it is worth hiring a trainer to come in that specializes in transitioning to a red dot. A few tips and changes can eliminate a lot of time spent trying to figure it out for yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-14-2019, 07:25 PM
nikerret nikerret is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Kansas
Posts: 22
We are required to carry the G22 as a primary sidearm. Since they are from 2013, no RMR mounts. Therefore, no RMR’s.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-14-2019, 07:35 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,873
I work for the third largest Department in the US and the "rumor" is there's a push to make RMR sights an employee purchased option, NOT a Department issued piece of equipment.

The advantage, pointed out in the white paper quoted by Hawkeye, is target vs sight focus and the potential to reduce mistake of fact shootings.

Last edited by mark2734; 04-14-2019 at 07:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:08 AM
Killer95Stang Killer95Stang is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
I work for the third largest Department in the US and the "rumor" is there's a push to make RMR sights an employee purchased option, NOT a Department issued piece of equipment.

The advantage, pointed out in the white paper quoted by Hawkeye, is target vs sight focus and the potential to reduce mistake of fact shootings.
It's not a rumor... it's coming.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:17 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer95Stang View Post
It's not a rumor... it's coming.
I learned a long time ago not to spend my money until I see it in writing
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-15-2019, 06:03 PM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 794
Ours will be an employee purchase option also. The cost to issue them to each employee would be financially crippling.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-15-2019, 11:20 PM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
I learned a long time ago not to spend my money until I see it in writing
Spoken like someone who’s been around... with the ppt DROS of the “almost approved” gun to prove it... lol.

My department, close to mark2734’s, and the largest of its type, is also looking at optics for personal purchase. I thinknit’s coming, and I did buy the guns/optics, and I’m a believer.

If we can get STIs, AND optics... well... a poor man is me.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-15-2019, 11:43 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
Spoken like someone whoís been around... with the ppt DROS of the ďalmost approvedĒ gun to prove it... lol.

My department, close to mark2734ís, and the largest of its type, is also looking at optics for personal purchase. I thinknitís coming, and I did buy the guns/optics, and Iím a believer.

If we can get STIs, AND optics... well... a poor man is me.
HaHa we already have STIs and I'm already poor
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-16-2019, 12:15 AM
SoCalDep SoCalDep is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
HaHa we already have STIs and I'm already poor
Oh I know (STIs)... Your guys are sure fighting the good fight. Youíve got a great cadre up there. Iím always impressed when we shoot together. I took my son up to the academy this past weekend and we walked around a bit. My department doesnít have anything like the EP grounds... truly historic.

Iím already poor too... gonna get more poor.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-16-2019, 05:24 AM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: N. Richland Hills, Texas
Posts: 1,165
They allow us (Rangers) to use them. A couple of us have ZEV OZ9 pistols with Trijicon Type 2 RMRs on them. On close targets, I'm just as fast or even a little faster with irons. But 25-50 yards the dot is much more fast/accurate for me. 50 year old eyes suck.

I still prefer a good 1911 and will be back to carrying one when Cheely gets my Commander finished. The OZ9 will likely be my night time callout gun.
__________________
IDPA #A704306
USPSA #A-61090
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-16-2019, 11:46 AM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangertrace View Post
They allow us (Rangers) to use them. A couple of us have ZEV OZ9 pistols with Trijicon Type 2 RMRs on them. On close targets, I'm just as fast or even a little faster with irons. But 25-50 yards the dot is much more fast/accurate for me. 50 year old eyes suck.

I still prefer a good 1911 and will be back to carrying one when Cheely gets my Commander finished. The OZ9 will likely be my night time callout gun.
Just checked it out. Seems like a nice piece.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:04 PM
Greenrunner Greenrunner is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Iowa
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
Oh I know (STIs)... Your guys are sure fighting the good fight. Youíve got a great cadre up there. Iím always impressed when we shoot together. I took my son up to the academy this past weekend and we walked around a bit. My department doesnít have anything like the EP grounds... truly historic.

Iím already poor too... gonna get more poor.
Historic? You are making me feel old. I went through the academy on those historic EP grounds, when our carry options were not quite as extensive as now -- k frame S&W revolvers that were .38 special and not .357 capable. J frame for a backup gun.

What's a red dot?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:16 PM
JayhawkNavy02 JayhawkNavy02 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by SV 22 View Post
I can only speak to testing on Glocks. If you utilize a 9mm, there are slide mounted options that will last. Once you go to a .40, failure rates rise to an unacceptable level.

Between training man hours and ammunition expense, it is worth hiring a trainer to come in that specializes in transitioning to a red dot. A few tips and changes can eliminate a lot of time spent trying to figure it out for yourself.
Switch to Aimpoint. The military shooting teams (45 APC and 9mm) are shooting 100s of thousands of rounds annually through a small population of pistols with almost zero issues. Lots of dead dots along the way to figure out what works. Are dots more reliable than irons, of course not.

For the OP, Rifles yes, pistols no.
__________________
Distinguished Pistol #388

Last edited by JayhawkNavy02; 04-17-2019 at 11:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-18-2019, 10:35 AM
Tim Burke's Avatar
Tim Burke Tim Burke is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: NC
Posts: 10,602
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangertrace View Post
On close targets, I'm just as fast or even a little faster with irons. But 25-50 yards the dot is much more fast/accurate for me.
My experience, too. Small or far targets, there's an advantage, but for most of what I expect to need a pistol, I find it slower.
__________________
TB., NC
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-18-2019, 11:10 AM
coltm4223 coltm4223 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 120
I work for the second smallest Fed LE agency and we traded the M&P45 for the M2.0 .45 with the slide cut and new kydex holsters in anticipation of a red dot approval. The agency just submitted the contract for the purchase of the Trijicon RMR Type 2. Should see them on the guns around Christmas. It will remain optional for the agents.
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Whittington Center Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-18-2019, 12:49 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by coltm4223 View Post
I work for the second smallest Fed LE agency and we traded the M&P45 for the M2.0 .45 with the slide cut and new kydex holsters in anticipation of a red dot approval. The agency just submitted the contract for the purchase of the Trijicon RMR Type 2. Should see them on the guns around Christmas. It will remain optional for the agents.
Mind posting some info on the holster? The Trijicon RMR is the go to sight but holsters are up in the air.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-18-2019, 02:42 PM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: N. Richland Hills, Texas
Posts: 1,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
Mind posting some info on the holster? The Trijicon RMR is the go to sight but holsters are up in the air.
If you don't have to have retention, DSGARMS makes a D4 holster what will fit a tac light and RMR. I've got a Safariland ALS on my tac rig when I need retention.
__________________
IDPA #A704306
USPSA #A-61090
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-18-2019, 02:45 PM
Hawkeye fan Hawkeye fan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Age: 40
Posts: 6,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2734 View Post
Mind posting some info on the holster? The Trijicon RMR is the go to sight but holsters are up in the air.
I don't know which holster they are using but for my G34 with the RMR type 2 I'm using a Safariland 6390 RDS ALS holster. Safariland does offer it with the SLS hood as well if you need it.



Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-18-2019, 03:07 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,873
Yeah the Safariland is the only real option for uniform duty carry I've seen.

Plain clothes/special duty is about whatever the individual wants to buy/carry.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-20-2019, 04:21 AM
Colt191145 Colt191145 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 726
I am not an LEO, but I did have a glock 23 with a trijicon RMR for a while. The dots are very accurate and sure help with aging eyes.

BUT if you are the slightest bit ODC then the dot might not be for you. The slightest scratch or bit of dirt on the RMR window would throw me for a loop, I would want to focus on the damn piece of dirt or water spot and not the red dot. I was constantly having to keep the window glass clean, what a pain in the ass.

The RMR is a great sight, if you can get past debris or scratches on the glass then go for it.

For me, I will wait until the Aimpoint sealed sight becomes available before I maybe try a dot on a pistol again.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-23-2019, 03:13 PM
coltm4223 coltm4223 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 120
We are currently issuing a Kydex holster made to our specifications from High Threat Concealment (HTC). I will see if there is a model number
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Whittington Center Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-23-2019, 08:10 PM
mark2734 mark2734 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 4,873
Thanks
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:00 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved