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what breed qualifies as a good guard dog ?

41K views 222 replies 128 participants last post by  frankiestoys 
#1 ·
Everyone knows dogs are among the best criminal deterrents one can get. In hard/bad times, I'm curious what breed you guys believe would serve a guard dog role best?

I am thinking real hard about a fila brasileiro for this task. Yes they are big, and they will eat a little more, but from my experience really no more than a high energy dog like a shepherd. A good buddy has a great dane/mastif mix, over 200 lbs and he eats less than some labs I've seen. This is also true of another friends Fila. The Fila/mastifs are very hearty/strong dogs that I believe would far well in rough times, plus they will not out of boredom chew up everything under the sun. They are quite happy just laying around until the time comes to bite an arm off. They are great around & guarding other animals as well.

What say you guys?
 
#35 ·
Just to follow up on this, think about it this way. I assume that you practice your shooting skills, you run scenarios in your mind, you probably do some scenario based training etc. Hopefully you work out, you stay in good shape.

Now please tell me why it would be any different for a dog? They aren't, under stress, just going to happen upon their deep inside alpha wolf. It doesn't work that way. And as far as pack mentality, that is a much more fluid thing in actual dogs than in a Cesar Millan show. In short, they aren't a wolfpack with an alpha, they are more of a family group sort of dynamic, both in feral dog packs and in human society.
 
#39 ·
Just to follow up on this, think about it this way. I assume that you practice your shooting skills, you run scenarios in your mind, you probably do some scenario based training etc. Hopefully you work out, you stay in good shape.

While all of the above are good ideas that will likely enhance performance, I think those that do such things are in the minority of gun owners, and even LE professionals- yet both routinely rise to the occasion when needed.

Now please tell me why it would be any different for a dog? They aren't, under stress, just going to happen upon their deep inside alpha wolf. It doesn't work that way.

I'd suggest that it DOES work that way, to a certian degree, both in people and dogs. Survival and protective instincts are primal, hard wired behaviors in both. I'm NOT suggesting that a purpouse trained dog won't perform better, and be far more controllable by the handler. However, the instincts, while perhaps buried to varying degrees, is still present.

And as far as pack mentality, that is a much more fluid thing in actual dogs than in a Cesar Millan show. In short, they aren't a wolfpack with an alpha, they are more of a family group sort of dynamic, both in feral dog packs and in human society.
While not as clearly apparent as with a wolfpack, I don't agree that dogs do not have a defined social hierarchy within both established packs and the "pack" that includes people. Every dog I've owned would, with only a look and a tone, immediately submit to my will. Regardless of the breed, and with no real "training" to do so- it was an established reality of the relationship that I was the Alpha, it was respected, and only very rarley challanged. When lve had multiple dogs at once, there was always a hierarchy. Mostly it was followed, sometimes challanged, and sometimes changed- the latter usually when the top dog got older, and a younger vied for position... the geriatric usually submitted in time.

The ACD that I had many years ago tore up a prospective burgler that broke into the house while I was at work. The sliding glass door that was jimmied open was smeared with blood, as was the back deck. The dog then sat at the threshold to the open door until I returned... the thief, not the brightest, went to the ER for stitches- and then called the sheriff about my "vicious" dog. Probably hoping for a a payday. He was promptly arrested and charged. The deputies that came out to the house had a good laugh about it, and were somewhat suprised by the calm, well behaved, friendy dog that they saw....

Conversely, I don't think one can or should EXPECT an aggressive, effective response from the family pet... far too many variables: breed, mindset, personality, tenacity, size, ability- the list goes on.

There's 2 extremes being debated; the reality is probably somewhere in the middle...
 
#43 ·
Perhaps for the sake of discussion, perhaps we should define the terms we're using..

A trained "protective" dog, such as Kelpimonk describes and is familiar with. Purpose bred, purpouse trained, for this purpouse. Specific breeds are commonly used, for a varaity of reasons- first and foremost is trainability, the ability to lean to perform on command in short order, and be 95%+ reliable in following commands without hesitation...

A "watchdog" that will let you when something is amiss, but cannot be relied upon for much more...

A "guard/guardian" dog... much harder to define. May range from a non purpouse trained member of a breed commonly used for protective dogs, to a mutt with a highly active protective nature, and a lot in between.

The latter is probalbly the most appropriate for most owners. If one wants more protective instinct, certain breeds are more disposed to such behavior... larger, more powerful dogs require greater degrees of control- though even a small dog with a high fight/don't quit drive can be very dangerous. The larger ones are simply capable of inflicting more damage with less effort...

The protective dog requires a commiteed and dedicated handler, and an environment free of unintended "threat" stimuli...
 
#45 ·
There is a lot more to keeping a dog than selecting a breed.
Large dogs especially are prone to hip issues, and of course, they eat more.

OTOH, A pal kept a lil' yappomatic terrier and his home was burgled anyway. His yapper was clubbed by the thief adding a hefty vet bill among the other losses suffered.

Chesapeake Retrievers always struck me as being fiercely protective dogs, along with Shepherds and Pinchers.
 
#47 ·
As the others mentioned, there are very specific areas to the term "guard dog," from personal protection, livestock/property, etc.

In my case, the best deterrent was my female GSD. She was trained in search and rescue, but had uncanny instincts for protecting my wife...she never let any stranger get close enough to touch my wife when they were on walks by positioning herself between my wife and anyone she didn't know, and bark and growl if someone reached out or moved closer than her personal space.

The best property protector was my old female Great Pyrenees who thwarted at least two burglary attempts that I know of. They were both super affectionate to family and friends and loved kids as they were both also child therapy dogs.
 
#48 ·
Just my opinion, but I believe most animals are similar in this respect, humans included. Making blanket statements about breeds in regard to how they will react to agrression is foolhardy. Dogs, like people are made up of many different instincts and capibilities not always predictable. Some will fight to the death, some will attack unprovoked, some will cower at the first sign of trouble. I’ve seen all types, and often with unexpected animals. I was given a German Shepard that washed out of railroad police training 30 years or so ago. She would act agressive, but never actually bite, no matter how hard they pushed her. 5 years passed, she was a family house dog and she severly injured an intruder and was killed herself when the home was threatened, and she fought till the end. No accounting for what motivates dogs, or humans for that matter.
 
#51 ·
I agree. Different breeds have different characteristics, but there are huge variations within breeds as well. I'm no dog expert, I just have 20 or so and spend 18 hours a day helping dogs move and sort cattle this time of year.

We have Border Collies for herding and Pyrenees for guarding. We work 2-5 dogs at a time usually and mostly just let each dog do the job they do best. Some are one trick ponies but sometimes that trick can save you hours of work. Others are thinkers and can be relied upon to do the correct things without instruction.

I have seen some crazy traits show up in Border Collies. I had one that would point and flush pheasant and quail if you were just out walking. He would also tree ***** for me until he got tired of me shooting them. Shooting was one thing he just wouldn't abide. I've had a dog that never showed any signs of aggression towards humans go for a salesman's throat while he was talking to my wife at our front door. The dog sat by her for 5 minutes before making the move. My wife said the guy was starting to creep her out but was surprised at the dogs reaction.

My point is that dogs have different personalities and natural talents within breeds. Also, traits from ancestors can reappear in a breed where you wouldn't expect it.

Lastly, you can't tell me that good dogs of many breeds can't ascertain intentions and act accordingly without specific training. Dogs can sense things humans can't as demonstrated by dogs warning of seizures and other health events. I say find a dog that fits your lifestyle and personality. Use breed as a guideline but not an absolute. If a dog loves you and respects you it will take care of you.
 
#49 ·
I've got 4 Border Collies.

After they make the rounds at night, they come in, lock the back door and set the security system.......
 
#52 ·
Depends on how much effort you are willing to put into the dog as well! Many dogs that have a natural working dog instinct require more work than the average dog owner is willing to put in.

Take for example, a Belgian Malinois! They are the choice for the White House. Very protective, very smart, very fast, and will lay their life down if trained properly. But with that comes constant training and the ability to "WORK" every day! Most people are just not up to that task!

I rescued a Belgian Malinois/Black Mouth Curr mix! She was older when I got her/rescued her! She's proving to be a great dog! Loyal and learning every minute to be a great loyal protector of her domain. But with this comes other drawbacks as well. Do you want guests to feel welcome in your home! With a true working/protector, this really can't happen with the dog out with strangers!

You really can't have your cake and eat it too with this. But if you simply want an alert dog, almost anything from the tiny ankle biters to a bull mastiff can take care of that and all mixes in between! Every dog is different in that respect.

But here's my Lilly Bell mix of Shepherd/Black Mouth Curr. Both breeds are very much working dogs. I'm training her to track wounded deer for me. Gives her such great pride and a purpose on top of being our great family dog.
 

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#54 ·
i've seen some intimidating looking shepherds at first glance run away from pressure on the training field. And some that were great until introduced to gun fire and then they crumbled. Nerves and drive have to be tested to know what you have on your hands.

I've got a mal/shepherd mix that I was unsure about the first couple times we introduced to bite work but quickly gained confidence. Now I'd trust him to back up his intentions if the need called for it. When I first got him at 1yr old, I thought I just had a great family pet.

As far as breeds go, a mali would be at the top of my list for a working dog but they have to have a purpose and be worked. They have a motor like nothing I've ever seen. That's why I went with the mix, wasn't sure I could live with a full out mal-igator...lol They will find something to do if you don't help them channel their endless supply of energy.

I usually tell people the difference in a shepherd and a mal is that a mal will run straight through heavy, fast traffic if sent without checking up. They believe they are indestructible and throw their body at whatever full force. A shepherd will at least check up but may go anyway if told.
 
#55 ·
I am partial to VEO's, East european shepherds as all rounder breed with good potential and trainability. But as others have pointed out dogs are like humans in many respects and they all have their unique personalities even within the same breed. So the best dog breed is really not a breed but a dog that you can connect with on a personal level. It's a relationship not a servitude contract :).
 
#56 ·
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here kids. The whole program of dog breeding has been successful because of the concept of typicity in breeds. While not every border collie has a strong eye, we can be pretty sure in assuming if it is not a border collie, mcnab or kelpie, then it doesn't have a strong eye. Likewise, there are lazy mals, but they are unlikely, and getting a mal thinking you have a chance at a lazy dog, is like getting a lab and thinking that it might have a lot of eye and will probably move sheep well.

Likewise, if you and your wife are blond haired and blue eyed, and your son is half chinese, it probably isn't just genetic happenstance. You probably want to check with your wife.
 
#57 · (Edited)
LOL, you are opening a can of worms with this argument my friend. The nature verses nurture argument is a complicated, contentious, and controversial topic that many have STRONG feelings about. I have seen SO MANY examples of it NOT being accurate that I have to disagree with you, at least in general terms. There is some vague truth to what you say, but using it as a benchmark to predict absolutely ANYTHING is a fools errand, in people, dogs, cats, and I'm sure rodents too. Two blonde headed parents may well have a higher percentage chance of producing a blonde child, but if you take 2 of those blonde children and expose them to completely different lives, do you expect that both of them will behave the same when faced with aggression? Or anything else for that matter? Of course not.
 
#59 ·
I understand what you are saying, and like I said I think there is certainly some truth to it, and clearly you are more experienced in training dogs than myself. My point is, that if you breed 2 big boned mastiffs, you will most likely get big boned mastiff puppies. Same is true for physical qualities in any animal... Physical qualities, not mental. Not flight or fight response, which is what I was making my point about. I'm not saying I am not completely full of crap :) just saying what my experience has been.
 
#60 ·
So one can selectively breed physical traits, yet not do so with mental, behavioral, or temperamental traits...?

I don't buy it. Dogs are specificly bred for less quantifiable traits and intuitive behaviors. A Labrador , no matter how much training, will not excel as a hearding dog... likewise, a Rott won't make a good uplands bird dog...

Yes, exposure and training to perform a function is important... but so is natural ability... those abilities can be highlighted and enhanced in a selective breeding program.
 
#67 · (Edited)
Again, I’m not debating trained police dog breeds. Your comment below from page one is where I take issue:

Quote:

Sorry, but this is BS. I have worked with, trained and competed with dogs my entire life. Most good family dogs are way too scared to take on a threat, and most of the ones who would are not under any sort of responsible control.

Just plain not accurate in my experience, which is what I have been disputing from the start. The comment stating that most good family dogs are too scared to take on threats has been far from my experience. Some are, some arn’t, depends on dozens of factors of which breed is only one, and not even the main one.
 
#68 ·
I stand by that comment. Frankly, it wasn't strong enough. I will restate it:

Almost no family dog not trained in protection will be equipped mentally and physically to take on, much less take down, a threat. Most family dogs lack any sort of useful training, and most people have no clue how to train a dog.

---

Everybody thinks their dog loves them, their dog will protect them and their children. This is because the see their dogs as hairy people, not as what they are. Your experience, unless you have either been involved in robbing enough houses to test dogs, have worked with dogs on these issues or have taken a lot of police reports about hero dogs saving families, is really not the point. They are just anecdotes, either yours or ones you inherited from others.
 
#71 ·
I stand by that comment. Frankly, it wasn't strong enough. I will restate it:

Almost no family dog not trained in protection will be equipped mentally and physically to take on, much less take down, a threat. Most family dogs lack any sort of useful training, and most people have no clue how to train a dog.
I totally agree! A family dog may alert you but that's probably all you'll get. I think most people assume they have a decent protector or assume their dog will do something useful because their dog may show a little aggression every now and then towards someone coming around and they can sense a little fear or hesitation in whoever that is once they hear "noise" from said dog. Mr. Creepy will not show fear or hesitation when he comes with ill will. A family dog will sense that and not know how to handle said pressure unless trained to overcome. That will get you only an alert and then that family dog will be hiding behind you... If your lucky that dog may slow the attacker down momentarily.

I do PSA (protection sport association), I'd encourage anyone to just drop in on a local training club or regional trial to see. The last 5 years working with dogs has taught me a lot. And the response I have from dogs I meet has totally changed because of it too. I was bit badly on the knee at a young age by a shepherd and was always a little hesitant around bigger dogs because of it. That's not the case anymore, I've over come that fear and a barking dog doesn't get a fear response from me any longer. I kind of get excited now...lol
 
#70 ·
Somehow we manage to get by with what we have.

Neither my wife or I really feel that we need or want anything more than a companion dog. And that is what we have. He will however let us know if anyone is approaching the house. Being the last house on a private road well away from the nearest house, this works out well

I admire you people that can really train and work with some of these really talented dogs. That appears to me to be quite an art as well as a commitment that I am not inclined to make. And the last thing that I would want to do is bring a dog into an environment that it is not suited for. With that said we have our hands full enough just keeping our eight lb. Yorkie from taking over completely.
 

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#75 ·
I have worked in a group with well trained animals with their handlers in real world situations, and I agree, it is an amazing thing to observe. Takes a lot of dedication and time to produce those results and it is quite spectacular to watch in action.

While different from this subject, I have observed many more animals in more recent years trained for what they can smell and identify over self defense skills, and they are equally impressive in my opinion. Amazing in fact.

Dogs are complex domesticated creatures, capable of amazing feats of both intelligence and courage, and then.... sometimes not. Just like with humans, it depends....
 
#76 ·
Nosework is really fun for dogs, and very rewarding. It can give a lot of confidence to a dog lacking that trait. When they learn something and turn on, it is great to watch.

On your last point, and perhaps your overall point, my best herding dog, who also happens to be my best friend, my snowmobile buddy and pretty much everything else, has one litter mate who is a world class sled dog, and another who does mountain SAR as a serious job. I don't contend that dogs can only do one thing, I just think that people lost the plot and bred dogs that are good for not much, and then have trained them to be even more useless.
 
#80 ·
Well a bunch of Chihuahuas does quite well. Especially if some of them aren't all that nice either (eg tend to bite). A long time ago the Aztecs and other Indian Groups used the dogs as a early warning system and as guard dogs. Plus when traveling in caravans for trading, if they got into trouble they could eat them in an emergency too. Granted we wouldn't do that today, unless the world was ending of course. But if you have ever been accosted by one or two Chihuahuas you would get the idea. They are incredibly noisy and protective in a group. They move around fast and a criminal would have a lot of trouble trying to hit one. There have been examples of a hostile Chihuahua protecting its owner from a criminal in the past too. Nothing to snear at from the ankle biters.
 
#81 · (Edited)
You cannot go wrong with a German Shepard or a Doberman if your main priority is to have a working dog that will be deterrent. Between their bark, their look (oh my those teeth are white and sharp!) and their reputation. Most criminals will just pick another house.

I have young kids so I personally would probably not have either of those breeds. If I lived alone, maybe a German Shepard, because I love them, but that's a lot of dog, and I'd like my kids to be a little older. A buddy of mine had three Dobermans and he swears by them, although not the dog for me, and that is OK. A Rottweiler will also send a potential criminal looking for a better opportunity that is less of a hassle. Remember, most criminals are lazy, and a lot of them are stupid, they will choose easy victims.

Any dog is good though, as long as they like to bark when they sense something isn't right. The noise is a deterrent.

A friend of my wife's was telling us how she had a German Shepard and the house next door to her was broken into. The Police came to interview her to see if a anyone saw anything, and the German Shepard was sitting there watching the Police Officer very closely.

It turns out in the course of the interview the officer mentioned that her other neighbor was also recently broken into. My wife's friend was like, oh no should we be worried?

The Police Officer noted the dog and said, no probably not, they probably saw that dog, and decided to not even chance it.

Criminals hate dogs, they will leave houses alone that have dogs and just go someplace else. Too noisy, too many teeth.

I have two dogs that are as sweet as pie. we spoil the daylights out of them, so as a result they are both extremely protective. They like to announce their presence to strangers and they are serious about guarding their territory.
 
#82 ·
+1

"Criminals hate dogs". I think the noise more than the bite, because a barking dog has the same feel as a huge spotlight shining down on your actions. But then, no one likes to get bit by a dog - any dog.

But as important as breed is, the pedigree of the dog is equally important. German shepards are often used as guard and military dogs because of the mix of natural aggression combined with intelligence and desire to please their owners and handlers. But take this same dog and focus the breeding on just escalating the aggression part of their nature, and you have the Czech Shepard - a dog bred abroad for its aggressive and savage tendencies. These dogs were for a long time denied entry into the United States for just these tendencies. People smuggled them in however, because they wanted the toughest and most intimidating guard dog they could find. Big difference between these dogs and normal German Shepards.

That being said, other then barking making thieves nervous and warning the owners, dogs are over-rated as deterrent because of bite. Sure, some dogs have extraordinary jaw strength - the top of the pack is over 700 pounds per square inch. But with a dog, you only have one head containing one set of teeth to deal with. The rest of the dog is pretty much benign unless it is a large dog that hits you with a full head of steam.

I raised Rottweillers for 25 years and my first pair were the best guard dogs a person could hope for. Intelligent, loving, but very protective. The next one was a show dog imported from Germany from a very aggressive line. One of the most beautiful dogs I have ever seen, he won all his early dog shows - passed obedience training at the top of his class but had a flaw. The aggression that was bred into him through a long line of aggressive German Schutzhund dogs would occasionally surface in a terrible way. It was like the turn of a switch would occasionally turn him into a crazy psychopathic attack dog. I got my clothes shredded by this 140 pound dog 3 times and he tried to kill me once by sinking his canines in my thigh all the way to the bone and then going for my throat. But as I said earlier, you control the head and you control the dog. Holding his head away, he couldn't land another bite. Speaking to him, he finally calmed down enough so I could lead him to his run and lock him up.

Dogs are much more easily killed, contained or controlled than most people believe. And if you wish for a naturally more aggressive dog for guard duty, let us hope that he will guard you from lawsuits should he decide to bite someone not intent on criminal activity.
 
#91 ·
The next one was a show dog imported from Germany from a very aggressive line. One of the most beautiful dogs I have ever seen, he won all his early dog shows - passed obedience training at the top of his class but had a flaw. The aggression that was bred into him through a long line of aggressive German Schutzhund dogs would occasionally surface in a terrible way. It was like the turn of a switch would occasionally turn him into a crazy psychopathic attack dog. I got my clothes shredded by this 140 pound dog 3 times and he tried to kill me once by sinking his canines in my thigh all the way to the bone and then going for my throat. But as I said earlier, you control the head and you control the dog. Holding his head away, he couldn't land another bite. Speaking to him, he finally calmed down enough so I could lead him to his run and lock him up.

Dogs are much more easily killed, contained or controlled than most people believe. And if you wish for a naturally more aggressive dog for guard duty, let us hope that he will guard you from lawsuits should he decide to bite someone not intent on criminal activity.
Damn, that must have been nerve-wracking having that dog bite you like that.

How long did it take you to recover from that injury?
 
#83 ·
We have three dogs, it can be a real zoo at times! The boss is a 6 pound Yorkie / Chihuahua mix, he barks at any noise outside. You couldn't get within 25 yards of my house in a windstorm. He hears everything.

We also have a 10 year old Black Lab. She is a great family dog, she loves everyone and will totally ditch you for a treat. I think she would sell us out to a thief if he had a dog biscut. Not a guard dog by any means, but she is very intuitive, I completely trust her character judgement of strangers. If she growls at a person I am on red alert.

Last is our German Shepherd. She is only 6 months old but is already guarding my home and children. She is only 60 pounds, but is very muscular. I think she will end up around 80 pounds or so. Her bark is very intimidating as is her overall look, that alone would detour the majority of criminals.

Any criminal that would get past my three dogs would have to face my Arsenal SAM7SF that is always ready to back the dogs up, and the AK47 has a fierce bite!
 
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