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Florida vs. Zimmerman discussion thread

100K views 880 replies 108 participants last post by  Noklue3 
#1 ·
All,

After some discussion among the 1911 Forum staff we've decided to permit an active thread regarding the ongoing case involving George Zimmerman and the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. However, we have laid down some simple ground rules:

1. All other threads created on this topic will be locked.

2. This discussion will remain on-topic and focused primarily on the case as it pertains to self defense, RKBA, and "Stand Your Ground" laws.

3. Absolutely NO discussions involving the issue of race, nor ridicule of any of the affected parties will be tolerated.

4. The forum staff will actively monitor this thread and reserves the right to immediately remove any post without warning if it fails to adhere to the above or else appears trolling in nature. Also, if this entire thread proves too difficult to control it may be locked or deleted.

The case of Florida vs. Zimmerman is a very emotionally charged event, and it is sure to evoke some very strong opinions. Please keep them professional and don't get in each others' faces like the rest of the country is currently doing. Again, we want this discussion to focus on how it affects us as gun owners and not on controversial segments unrelated to RKBA.

Thanks,

The 1911 Forum staff
 
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#61 ·
We needed a topic like this. Thank you forum staff for it.
Over visiting the forum tends to hurt my wallet. :-(
 
#62 · (Edited)
Breaking news: Zimmerman had his initial appearance today (a hearing in front of the judge to determine probable cause to support his arrest/detention) and the State's Probable Cause Affidavit they have filed in support apparently alleges that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Story below:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-12/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-charged-jail-20120412_1_face-murder-charges-today-show-accident

They also skipped a bond hearing and set his next court date for May 29. And the judge granted his lawyer's request to seal the official court record from the public. Given the international media circus surrounding this case, including bounties and death threats and whatnot, jail is probably the safest place he can be right now.
 
#65 · (Edited)
Breaking news: Zimmerman had his initial appearance today (a hearing in front of the judge to determine probable cause to support his arrest/detention) and the State's Probable Cause Affidavit they have filed in support apparently alleges that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Story below:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-12/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-charged-jail-20120412_1_face-murder-charges-today-show-accident

.
Well then Aaron45, I take some of the stuff I said back(Based on lack of evidence)... sounds like Zimmerman could have very well started the fight where Trayvon hit him in fear of his life.

We shall see what sort of "confrontation" actually happened.

My opinion still stands(since day one).... If Zimmerman did truely physically attack the kid, then he should be charged with murder(or some for of killing a person)... you can't start a fight, start losing, kill a person in self defense and come out free of charge, if Zimmerman was simply following him to determine what was going on, and the Martin attacked Zimmerman (while trying to talk to him or while returning to his car) then Zimmerman acted in self defense.

But see what you fail to understand is that in the reversal of roles Trayvon was standing his ground against and agressor.
.
What sort of "agressor" was Zimmerman, did he follow him and try to talk to him? Or did he actually do something that Trayvon feared for his life and it was a probably cause for defending yourself? Those are two questions that need to be answered before you can say "Trayvon hit Zimmerman in self defense".

MIke.
 
#69 ·
Just this morning Martin's mom said on the Today Show that she believed the shooting was really just an accident, something that spiraled out of control. Hours later she retracted that statement, saying she really meant to say she thinks Zimmerman chased him down and shot him in cold blood. Complete reversals like that only reinforce my opinion that people behind the scenes are pulling the strings and trying to blow this whole thing up as big as possible. The chances of a fair trial, and especially of a fair verdict are getting slimmer by the hour.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...ation-says-zimmerman-killed-him-in-cold-blood
 
#73 ·
Yes, and in the other night, Trayvon's father said that this case also stresses the need to teach children to settle conflicts without getting into physical confrontation. He more or less acknowledge that his child may have thrown the first punch because he was insulted by Zimmerman's surveillance of him.
 
#71 ·
Martin's mother identified screams heard in the background of a 911 call as her son's. There had been some question as to whether Martin or Zimmerman was the one calling for help.

Thats not Probable cause

Prosecutors also interviewed a friend of Martin's who was talking to him just before the shooting. The affidavit says Martin told the witness he was being followed and was scared.
Thats not probable cause, thats hear say and more an opinion

Martin tried to run home, the affidavit says, but was followed by Zimmerman: "Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin."

Hope they have proof and more than a hunch

The affidavit says that "Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher" who told him to stop, and "continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home."

As long as they can prove that Zimmerman was not trying to return to his truck, and is home

Seems rather weak and not PC needed for an arrest or a trial.
 
#72 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm pretty sure the New Black Panther party putting a bounty on his head was pretty good motivation to go into hiding.

I don't remember the exact quote, but "Evil will triumph when good men stand and do nothing."

His neighborhood had a recent spat of break-ins, and he saw a suspicious person who he did not recognize walking behind houses in the rain.

I highly suspect that if Martin was polite to Mr. Zimmerman, and explained who he was, and why he was there (not that he had any legal obligation to) he would not have died that night. I also suspect that if Zimmerman was more clear to Martin about who he was, and why he was following him, this could've been avoided as well. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there was a first confrontation between the end of the first 911 call, and the fatal confrontation, with words that were exchanged (probably something along the lines of "Who are you, and why are you here?", followed up with a "eff you, you nosey a-hole!" or something along those lines from Martin.

Martin died about 100 yards from his house. Martin could've made it back to the house he was staying at had he just ran, as it was quite obvious that he had lost him at the end of the first 911 call (Zimmerman states as such). As a fat, out of shape guy, I could cover that distance in a dead run in less than a minute, significantly less than the amount of time between the first 911 call, and the second 911 call with the audible gun shot.

I highly suspect that this is a case of "When keeping it real goes wrong" more than anything, and unless there is a video of the entire altercation, I don't see how a Murder 2 charge will stick. Both men contributed to the situation, and both could've diffused it, however, neither did, and it wound up with Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating his head on the concrete, with Zimmerman fatally shooting Martin to get him to stop.

Had either man been the bigger man and had just talked politely to each other, this never would've happened.
 
#76 ·
Since Martin had family living there I am sure he knew who Zimmerman was and that there was a neighborhood watch group. It is not like he was a stranger visiting this community, he also probably knew of the break ins and as a result would want to stay vigilant and be willing to explain who he was and what he was doing there.
 
#74 ·
To the mods, this is a good thread and I appreciate the allowance of it. Several past threads have wandered off subject and got closed.

But if one individual is posting without relevant material to the discussion and appears to be trying to instigate nonrelative issues, can you not just remove the individual or give warning thru PM. Rather than letting one individual ruin the whole thread ( getting it closed ).

And yes, I am talking to you, Alter-ego. Your posts are purely meant to push your agenda. If you want to start a thread supporting your views then please go run with it elsewhere.

JMHO
 
This post has been deleted
#79 ·
There was nothing illegal about Zimmerman following Martin, or even confronting him, only that it flew against common sense when 911 told him they did not need him to do that (spoken in a forceful tone that clearly meant DON'T do that). The part none of us know is what happened next. Did Zimmerman get into an argument with Martin? Did he turn around and walk back to his vehicle without having had direct verbal contact with Martin? Did Martin indeed go after Zimmerman and attack him from behind? The answer to these questions will make all the difference as to whether or not the murder 2 charges will stick.
 
#80 ·
I agree 100% that how the Jury answers those questions is the crux of the case.

But is there direct evidence that Zimmerman continued following after the Dispatcher advised him not to? Everyone seems to assume this but I listened to the entire 911 tape and nothing in it indicates that he continued to follow Martin. His statement to the police indicates that he ceased pursuit and was returning to his car when the face to face confrontation began.
 
#82 ·
Some of the discussion here seems to confirm what I posted early in this thread - that seating an impartial jury in this case will be difficult to impossible and regardless of what evidence is or isn't presented at trial, it will be extremely difficult for Zimmerman's lawyer to win an outright acquittal.
 
#83 ·
#89 ·
"We look forward to presenting the evidence at that time," he said. "... We will make all arguments in the courtroom, and that's where it should be." I'm pleased with Zimmerman's, attorneys' (O'Mara) approach at trying to end the circus and simply deal with the facts in court.
.
 
#101 ·
911 operator did not say " Stop following him" , the operator said " we don't need you to do that", big difference, one is an order and the other can be at the most described as advice or a suggestion. Dispatcher orders and lawful orders given by police officers who have been vested with the authority to do so are quite different.
The 911 operator from the Joe Horn case told him specifically not to shoot during his call, look how that case turned out! He wasn't even attacked!
 
#105 ·
After seeing what is in the prosecution's accusatory affidavit, I now see why she chose not to present to a Grand Jury. If that's what she has, the Grand Jury would have almost certainly no-billed the case.

I assume there will be an Evidentiary Hearing to try and get the charges dismissed due to justifiable homicide/self-defense but I seriously doubt a judge will have the guts to throw the case out before trial.
 
#110 ·
I like the 2nd degree charge, since it will be nearly impossible to prove in this case. This would make it easier for the jury to acquit since there in all probability will be some credibility for the self-defense claim. I'm one of those who thinks Z is being railroaded, but of course like everyone else, I don't know yet what really happened. I just hope it's a fair trial.
 
#114 ·
Well as someone else stated, in Florida the jury is allowed to convict on a lesser included charge. They can vote to convict on 3rd Degree manslaughter.

The more and more I read about this, the more that it is clear that Prosecutor Corey's decision is pure politics.

But this could be a long fight costing Zimmerman millions and the state even more millions, especially if appeals are taken, and I bet there will be appeals at every stage of the litigation.
 
#122 ·
Zimmerman stopped following Martin

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/02/9...after-dispatchers-request-corroborates-story/

"Zimmerman’s story from the beginning to police and to the media has been that he stopped following when the dispatcher told him to."



"Zimmerman can still be heard breathing into the phone until about 2:39, at which point the heavy breathing stops entirely, a mere 13 seconds after the dispatcher asked him to stop following. A very calm and collected Zimmerman then proceeds to give the dispatcher his own information, directions and a description of his location for another 1 minute and 33 seconds."


"The point is this: With no witnesses stating that Zimmerman defied the dispatcher’s wishes and continued following Martin and no evidence to suggest he did, how did the idea that he pursued Martin after the dispatcher told him not to become a universally recognized, undisputed fact?"
 
#124 ·
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/02/9...after-dispatchers-request-corroborates-story/

"Zimmerman’s story from the beginning to police and to the media has been that he stopped following when the dispatcher told him to."



"Zimmerman can still be heard breathing into the phone until about 2:39, at which point the heavy breathing stops entirely, a mere 13 seconds after the dispatcher asked him to stop following. A very calm and collected Zimmerman then proceeds to give the dispatcher his own information, directions and a description of his location for another 1 minute and 33 seconds."


"The point is this: With no witnesses stating that Zimmerman defied the dispatcher’s wishes and continued following Martin and no evidence to suggest he did, how did the idea that he pursued Martin after the dispatcher told him not to become a universally recognized, undisputed fact?"
People listen to the media reporting that Zimmerman chased him down and killed him in cold blood.
 
#127 ·
Lots of speculation, by all concerned. However, statistics reflect that homicides in Florida have risen dramatically since SYG became law. Now, we even have men showing up to play golf inside gated communities while CCW....and we are not talking about a five iron...Where are we going?
 
#133 ·
majortoo wrote:


Lots of speculation, by all concerned.
Indeed.


However, statistics reflect that homicides in Florida have risen dramatically since SYG became law.
You apparently seek to "link" the two together (I.E. SYG is the reason for this), do you have any credible study you can show us for this... Sir?


Now, we even have men showing up to play golf inside gated communities while CCW....and we are not talking about a five iron...Where are we going?
Some segments of society are waking up and realizing that LEO can't be everywhere all the time. Hence...they choose to arm themselves in the unfortunate event they are forced to defend themselves. That's where some folks are "going".
 
#140 ·
Part of my job is reading and approving complaints/affidavits/charges.

I read the 2 (3) pages of the charges. It is written in a biased, non nutral, non factual way, designed to support a weak case and make Zimmerman look bad.

The statements seem to jump in how they are written and at trial/pre trial might not hold up.

I dont think it could have been written with much more of slant/biased/prejudice.

IMHO its sad to see what experinced team can come up with and it be so sorry.
 
#150 · (Edited)
The whole case boils down to this question, "Who initiated the physical confrontation?" Which begs the question, "Do we believe Zimmerman's account of the events?"

From a Legal standpoint, we don't have a "physical" confrontation until one of the two parties involved physically contacts the other.

Zimmerman claims Trayvon Martin "attacked" him from behind. If that is the case, then his shooting is justified if the eyewitness account that had Martin on top of Zimmerman.

Not everyone believes Zimmerman's account, that he was "attacked from behind."

If Zimmerman grabbed Martin by the arm, and Martin responded by punching him in the nose and knocking him down, then Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, and he should be convicted of Manslaughter. (I believe that there was no intent on Zimmerman's part, thus Murder 2 is excessive)

We can debate the "he should have stayed in the car" issue forever, but from a legal standpoint, it doesn't matter unless it was Zimmerman's intention to run the kid down and kill him. There are those that seem to believe that was the case, but Zimmerman's history does not support that.


My 2¢

Robert
 
#151 ·
Armedrebel
Those 2¢ are actually the million dollar question. Unless there are more witnesses than we know about, all we can really go on is Zimmerman's story. This is where Zimmerman can argue that he reasonably feared for his life or that he was facing great bodily harm. It will be hard for the prosecutor to prove otherwise. This is a statement made by a legal analyst on FOX.
The prosecutors must prove Zimmerman's shooting of Martin was rooted in hatred or ill will

Read more: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...urder-wont-be-easy-experts-say/#ixzz1rsMFkLjl
 
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