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What is a tight fit 1911

6K views 38 replies 17 participants last post by  papafluff 
#1 ·
Hi all
I love 1911’s owned them for years and in the past year have really studied up on them and what makes them tick. What is considered a tight fit 1911? I recently purchased a Dan Wesson Valkyrie. I’ve done a lot of reading and all I read is how they are considered top of the line for a production gun and a very tight fit. No play between slide and frame barrel and bushing bushing to slide rock solid barrel lockup. Being a retired toolmaker I’m a numbers guy so I took the time to do a inspection report on all the critical areas of what I believe to be the foundation of the mechanical accuracy of this gun. The machining on this gun is outstanding. Surfaces are true and parallel void of all machine marks and burrs. The gun feels soft in your hands just outstanding craftsmanship but the actual numbers confuse me. This could very well be my lack of knowledge of what’s considered tight fit on a 1911. Let’s start with the barrel lockup to the slide. My understanding is the upper lugs of the barrel should bottom out so to speak with the corresponding lug recesses in the slide. On this gun there is .048 until contact is made with slide. When the gun is assembled I’m getting.04 engagement. That’s .008 away from making any contact with the slide. Is this normal? I was under the assumption based on all I’ve read the link should push the barrel up against the slide thus creating a solid lockup between barrel and slide. Now the lower barrel lugs are fit perfectly to the slide stop pin and the barrel hood has .001 clearance on all 3 sides creating a very solid lockup. I’ve drawn a quick drawing of all the other dimensions regarding slide to frame fit and barrel to bushing to slide. The dimensions marked with S are the slide dimensions and F is frame dimensions. Like I said I’m a numbers guy and just don’t know if these numbers represent a tight fit gun or not. I’ve got a rock island that has just as tight a slide to frame fit in fact the whole gun is fit just as tight as my Dan Wesson. I’m looking to learn here and figure out if this gun is or is not what I should expect from Dan Wesson
 

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#3 ·
… Let’s start with the barrel lockup to the slide. My understanding is the upper lugs of the barrel should bottom out so to speak with the corresponding lug recesses in the slide. On this gun there is .048 until contact is made with slide. When the gun is assembled I’m getting.04 engagement. That’s .008 away from making any contact with the slide. Is this normal? I was under the assumption based on all I’ve read the link should push the barrel up against the slide thus creating a solid lockup between barrel and slide. Now the lower barrel lugs are fit perfectly to the slide stop pin and the barrel hood has .001 clearance on all 3 sides creating a very solid lockup…
You have it backwards. The slide lugs should bottom out in the barrel lug recesses. There will be clearance between the top of the barrel lugs and the slide recesses. Measure the TDC depth of the lug slots(recesses) in the barrel, particularly the back one. On a perfectly fit barrel that dimension establishes the lockup, i.e. if the depth is .043", if the bottom lugs are cut to be supported by the slide stop pin then you will have .043" engagement. That number cannot be more that the measured rear lug slot depth, but may be less depending on how well the barrel was fit. On a correctly fit gun the link should do nothing but pull the barrel down out of lockup. In the real world many factory guns ride the link with variable accuracy. It was common in the old days, before oversize gunsmith fit match barrels were commonly available to build the gun to ride the link. That is probably why Pachmayr developed the wide link that the used on their in house builds and sold to the trade. The hood clearance is very nice. Far better than most factory guns. I would prefer zero clearance hood to breech face and with your .001" on the sides and a little chamfer on each rear corner.
 
#4 ·
I did word that incorrectly and thank you for correcting. Let me put it this way. If I hold the barrel up into the slide with slide removed from frame bushing installed and measure from top of slide to top of barrel and take the same measurement with gun assembled the assembled dimension is .008 greater which tells me the barrel is .008 away from making any contact with slide.
 
#5 ·
I should also correct that not the barrel link but the barrel’s lower lugs against the slide stop pin should hold the barrel up into slide. This gun has .008 to go up before making any contact with slide. I find this to be the case with every 1911 I own. The numbers may be different but none of them actually contact the slide vertically in lockup.
 
#7 ·
So this would be typical for a Dan Wesson? What about slide to frame fit? The numbers I posted are typical? Seems sloppy to me but as stated I don’t know what is considered tight or sloppy. Barrel bushing slide are numbers typical or should this gun be going back?
 
#8 ·
The dimensions you show are actually looser than the nominal ordnance specs for the 1911. That would not be considered tight for a target gun, where clearances would be around .001" or less. But for a carry gun, a tight slide to frame fit is not required.

A common estimate places a tight slide fit's contribution to accuracy as being only 15 percent. Plus, a gun with a loose slide can still lock up tight, with the barrel fit taking up some of the slides vertical movement.

The bushing fit also appears loose, but those clearances diminish as the barrel links up. It's possible for the bushing clearance to drop to zero at linkup. For a target gun, the bushing will typically be a tight fit in the slide, and a close fit (.001" or less) on the barrel. The inner bore of the bushing would not be a simple straight bore though. It will either be a straight bore relieved for linkup. or an angle bore relieved for linkdown.

So that would not be a tightly fit gun in the sense that target guns are tightly fit. But a gun can nonetheless lockup tight in spite of what the dimensions might suggest.

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#10 ·
adding to what meggafiddle mentioned about barrel fit and loose slide fit taking up the mechanical slack .. I have 2015 Colt Ser 70 repro that has a rattle slide. But the barrel to bushing and bushing to slide fit are quite good in lock up, and the barrel fit is such that in battery there is very little mechanical slack. As a result it shoots as accurately as any of my better fitted guns (for my shooting skills at 50 ft).
 
#11 ·
This is exactly what I’m trying to find out. Is my gun up to Dan Wesson quality or do I have one that slipped through QC? All I’ve read is how tight Dan Wesson’s are particularly the slide to frame fit barrel lockup and so on. Numbers don’t lie and as a toolmaker the numbers on my gun say slop but then I have no knowledge of what is considered tight on a 1911. I did contact Dan Wesson and was told that NO production 1911 locks up vertically against the slide and that my slide to frame fit are in spec. I’m here to learn is this true or am I being told this because they don’t want to repair or replace. Any Dan Wesson owners out there that can compare my numbers to theirs? Dan Wesson’s are not cheap and I just want to make sure I got what I paid for. Love this site and the knowledgeable people here. I love to learn and ready to be educated
 
#29 ·
...
I did contact Dan Wesson and was told that NO production 1911 locks up vertically against the slide and that my slide to frame fit are in spec.
...
I suspect Dan Wesson is being honest about their spec information. As a production carry gun, and not a target gun, the slide and frame are finished parts, made to dimensions that guarantee they will assemble without any fitting required. The old 1911 ordance specs also guaranteed this freedom from fitting, and also had generous tolerances. They were also not target guns. Also, Dan Wesson's aluminum frames are likely supplied anodized, and so cannot be fitted.

At $1800, I can understand expecting a better fit. Some examples may be better than yours, or yours may typical; possibly you will get some dimensions from other examples.

I can completely understand how a proper barrel lockup would overcome the play in the slide but that’s not the case here. The barrel on my gun is .008 away from making contact with upper lugs
You are correct, with complete freedom of the barrel to move within the slide, you would have some vertical play.

However there is another way that the barrel fit can take up vertical slide slack. If the bushing is fitted so that the bushing fit becomes tight at linkup, this will tend to force the rear of the slide upward. As the barrel links up, it carries the rear of the slide up along with it, through the bushing. This is not the correct way to do it, but it can take up vertical slack.

And often overlooked, the magazine spring, with or without rounds present, forces the rear of the slide upward, again taking up slack.

I certainly appreciate all the info and knowledge. I still question the vertical lockup. If a properly functioning 1911 locks the barrel up into the slide why would a gun like a Dan Wesson or any 1911 be produced not to? Is this something that is only found on custom built guns?? Do you buy a production 1911 and then have a barrel properly fit to get a gun to be the way it should be. I have studied the mechanics of the 1911 and it’s pretty straight forward. Why is the proper vertical lockup left out?
The 1911 was designed to be assembled in large quantities from finished parts. Production guns are still produced that way, with the exception of certain features. Modern machining allows closer tolerances, and so drop in barrels with more closely fit barrel hoods can be produced for example.

A hard or close vertical lockup was not part of the original design. As a spec, the actual upper lug engagement is a derivied dimension, based on all the specs of the relavent parts. The specs guranteed that a barrel would not bind when assembled, but would also have adequate upper lug engagement and linkdown clearance.

Your Valkyrie probably resembles original 1911 specs more than the target model 1911's.

Before target model 1911's were being produced, ordance spec 1911's were being modified with welded up barrel hoods, and welded up upper lug recesses and lower lugs. They were then hard or close fitted. The frame rails might also be peened for a closer fit to the slide. Now, for custom target guns, barrel upper and lower lugs and bushing are oversize and fitted to the slide and frame. The frame rails are also oversize and fitted to the slide.

When building a target gun from a commercial 1911, an oversize barrel and bushing are often used. The goal is optimum accuracy. Carry guns are not typically modified for better accuracy. Optimum reliability is more important.

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#12 ·
How does your gun group? This is what matters.

I replaced the bushings on both my DW. The PM 9 now shoots under 2” at 50 yards The Valor in 45 shoots under 3”.

I am a bullseye shooter.

My hard fit Gold Cup is so tight it needs a bump to unlock from an empty chamber. Th is NOT any factory type lockup.

It’s a compromise between reliability and accuracy. You can have both. But.....

My PM-9 is the most accurate factory gun I have. This was before the bushing change.

David
 
#14 ·
How does your gun group? This is what matters.

I replaced the bushings on both my DW. The PM 9 now shoots under 2” at 50 yards The Valor in 45 shoots under 3”.

I am a bullseye shooter.

My hard fit Gold Cup is so tight it needs a bump to unlock from an empty chamber. Th is NOT any factory type lockup.

It’s a compromise between reliability and accuracy. You can have both. But.....

My PM-9 is the most accurate factory gun I have. This was before the bushing change.


Yes ultimately groups are what matter but that’s not what I’m trying to find out. I’m trying to learn if the numbers on my gun are what I should be getting from a manufacturer like Dan Wesson. Without a baseline to compare to I have no clue. Was the information Dan Wesson told me correct that no production gun’s barrels will lockup against the upper lugs? That the numbers I have between my slide and frame are considered tight? Like I stated I have a rock island that is just as tight or tighter than this Dan Wesson at a third the price. Did I get lucky with the rock island? Or is my Dan Wesson not what it should be?
 
#15 ·
A few notes. My bushings were similar to yours. that is why I replaced them.

It looks like you have .003" in all places slide to frame fit except one which is .004.

I do not have the capabilities to measure as you have.

I can tell you I had the slide of my valor creakoted or how ever you spell it and it was really tight on the frame after that. How thick is the coating? I dunno.

My PM-9 is a little looser than the Valor was before the coating. I can't give you numbers. I can tell you of all the 1911 I have and had these are the best by far.

I understand you are a machinist. I get you measuring everything. I bought my guns to compete with and I think I bought the best. Both have many thousands of rounds with zero problems.

David
 
#16 ·
You guys are really way above my pay grade. I am happy that my 1911 hits where I point. Thanks for the education.
 
#17 ·
I certainly appreciate all the info and knowledge. I still question the vertical lockup. If a properly functioning 1911 locks the barrel up into the slide why would a gun like a Dan Wesson or any 1911 be produced not to? Is this something that is only found on custom built guns?? Do you buy a production 1911 and then have a barrel properly fit to get a gun to be the way it should be. I have studied the mechanics of the 1911 and it’s pretty straight forward. Why is the proper vertical lockup left out?
 
#18 ·
Snip
Do you buy a production 1911 and then have a barrel properly fit to get a gun to be the way it should be. Snip
YES, buy an oversize gunsmith fit barrel and have it fit or do it your self. I have done both. The one I had fit was a better job. Both shoot well.

Have you measured your slide stop pin? A larger pin will push the barrel up more. How big of a pin can you fit in the hole?

David
 
#19 ·
Assuming a .200” slide stop pin:
203” pin is largest I know of. Then only .003” of the present lock up is reduced, leaving .005” of locked position clearance still remaining. Plus you may have to correct subsequent barrel timing changes. Not worth it, really. Buy a Kart EXact Fit Barrel System. Done well, you will be pleased with the results. You will still have to check and correct barrel timing but it will be well worth it.
 
#25 ·
Actually, the .203" pin only changes vertical engagement about .0015" compared to the .200" pin (radius vs diameter).

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk
 
#20 ·
The proper term is "Hard Fit".
The idea behind it is the gun starts out really tight when new.
Very hard to pull the slide back.
After about 500 rounds it's just nice.
On a hard fit gun it is recommended that you just pull the slide back and lube the gun and don't try to dissasemble for cleaning until about 500 rounds.

The only companies that is making hard fit guns that I know of is Springfield Armory Custom shop and Les Baer ( Les started at Springfield).

I have owned both and still own one Springfield and one Baer, they are my most accurate 1911's.
 
#21 ·
For those interested....

For every 0.001" of play within the barrel lockup, the POI will move by about .125" at 25 yds. That's for a full size gun and assumes a sight radius of 7" or so.
 
#22 ·
The simple reason a DW or any production gun isn't fit perfectly is that it is a "production" gun...it must be made for a certain price point and in a certain time frame with a certain performance level. That's why you got the canned it's in spec answer....They can't stop and spend an hour fitting a barrel. Even with cnc these days, parts have a variance. The same slide from the same maker will vary.. i build BE pistols mainly these days and use a lot of Caspian frames and slides.. each barrel fit is always unique..

Build enough 1911s and you find that various makers abuse the original specs on the pistol at will..

Shoot and Enjoy your DW..
 
#23 · (Edited)
Try this. Remove the barrel, Clean the ramp the slide stop pin rides on. Cover is with dykum blue or sharpie. Assemble the gun work the slide a bunch of times or shoot a few rounds. If the barrel is fit properly, you will see the pin rides on the feet evenly. Most factory guns do not pass this test.

Tool accessory Tool Revolver


I give credit to Joe Chambers for this test. Its called the barrel fit challenge.

David
 
#28 ·
Now we’re getting somewhere. My reason for posting here in the first place was to find out if I got what I paid for or just got a Lemmon? All I’ve read is that Dan Wesson is a cut above the rest when it comes to production guns but with no baseline for a comparison I’m still in the dark. Are the numbers I posted on my gun better than other production guns? Or did I pay extra money for the name? Like I stated in the beginning the quality of the machine work is really good. Surfaces are flat and parallel and void of all machine marks. Dimensions are almost identical from one side of frame to the other and the same with the slide. It’s almost like the clearance was built in. I’m going to read the suggested articles above and also do the test to check the lower lugs to slide stop pin. Ultimately I just want to know if the numbers on my gun match with what someone should expect from Dan Wesson
 
#30 ·
I can’t thank you all enough for sharing your knowledge. At least now I have a much better understanding of what to expect from a production 1911 vs custom build. I go out into the world of 1911’s with a better understanding thanks to all of you who took the time to educate me. This is an awesome forum full of awesome people 👍
 
#31 ·
The truth of the matter is this. You have a really nice off the shelf production pistol that will shoot well and is nicely finished that has a lot more features than most at a slightly higher price point.

Dan Wesson guns are one hell of a bargain for what you get but make no mistake, it’s still a production pistol with mostly drop in tolerances. There’s no major hand fitting of any crucial components.

This post is what happens when people in the machine trade over obsess about things and break out the tools instead of just enjoying a nice pistol. I mean that in a good spirited way, not a dig.

It’s a nice gun at a reasonable price point. If it was any nicer it would be a grand more. There’s a reason why a gunsmith fit barrel costs 4-500 bucks installed and frame fitting costs a couple hundred. It’s labor intensive.
 
#34 ·
Have found this thread quite interesting,, specifically regarding the drawing and measurements that the OP did, and questions that he had about these measurements as concerning a DW pistol.
As I have recently acquired an early DW in ANIB condition, I decided to make the same measurements on mine.
I did not bother with the barrel lugs/slide recesses, only the OD of the muzzle/ID of the bushing, and the frame/slide interface surfaces.
So, using dial calipers, a dial indicator, and some simple set-ups, this is what I came-up with:
1, Lateral clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
2, Lateral clearance between slide rail and frame, .0015
3, Vertical clearance between frame rail and slide, .001
4, Vertical clearance between slide rail and frame, .002
5, OD of muzzle, .580
6, ID of bushing, .581
The breech face shows no sign of contact with the hood, but with the gun in battery I cannot insert a .0015 feeler gage between them, nor on either side of the hood ends.
The DW does not feel "tight", but it is slick and smooth.
I've never handled a LB/EB/Wilson, so I have no comparison(s) to make,,,.
The DW works fine,, perhaps as an EDC it might want to be a bit "looser",, I don't know??
It does like lots of oil,,.
 
#36 ·
Finally a comparison
If my gun had those numbers I wouldn’t even be here but it doesn’t. My gun is double and triple those numbers. Thank you for taking the time to actually provide me with the information I was looking for. It’s obvious you actually read and understood my post
 
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