I have seen a lot of data on shootings over the years, but do not recall seeing the number of shots fired by a civilian in a justified self defense shooting. Has this data been gathered, and if so, is there a report somewhere?
I have seen/heard a couple of things concerning the number of rounds fired. The first is something that was claimed to be reported by the FBI, which agrees with the number Greyson gave you. According to this report the average incident was:
While the above may be considered interesting, it may be more hear say than fact.
In addition to the above, I have seen a write up by Massad Ayoob in one of the magazines where he brought up a revision to the NYPD Officer Involved Shooting Statistics. The revision came about after a review of all NYPD data, going back almost 100 yrs. The person conducting the review looked at the data differently than ever before. The big changes were, the elimination of Officer suicides and accidents, and the separation of shootings using revolvers from those using semi-autos. The results for average rounds fired changed as follows:
Average rounds fired from:
Revolvers: 5
Semi-Autos: 9
The 7 2 2 1 numbers dont make sense to me. The distance is believable, the number of people involved seems like it should be higher if its including law enforcement shootings, the rounds fired should be alot higher, and it seems like the number of deaths would be lower.
Just my opinion. Can anyone source those numbers as actual fact? They just dont sound like what I would expect.
If I'm not mistaken, Tom Givens stated a statistic that 80% of handgun victims survived.
On the average, the number of shots in a SHOOTING is 2 - 3. The average number of shots in a GUNFIGHT is usually whatever is in the magazine or gun. Distance? anywhere from bad breath distance to 10 yds.
Disclaimer: I don't hang out or work in gunstores.
I don't have any info to back this up but I remember when I took my CCW course a year or so ago the instructor told us that the average shooting was 3 seconds and 2 rounds. Again, I don't have any definite info. to back this up, just what I was told.
Well you could say that, but considering how large the human body is, how well the body protects vital things and then look at how small the average pistol caliber bullet is and the truly 'sensitive' parts of the body are. Now mix that with the medical treatment available and it's not that hard to see the results.
Another interesting stat I read once said something to the effect that if a person is shot with a handgun caliber and doesn't bleed out within a minute their chances of surviving get really close to 100%.
Of course that doesn't talk about somebodies quality of life once they recover, they may survive but may have to eat through a straw, be confined to a wheel chair, etc, etc. Granted none of that helps when the BG is intending to do harm.
Since the mid to late 1970's this is probably true, given the advent of well trained and equipped paramedics, air ambulances, trauma centers, and good antibiotics. But prior to this, and prior to the 1960s, survival from a gunshot was anything but certain. Though the cause of death was probably infection rather than blood loss.
The point about medical care is well made. If you are shot with a handgun and survive to the ER, your likelihood of surviving is quite high.
I think Ricky T's on to something about the difference in statistics between a shooting and a gunfight... but does anyone keep stats on gunfights?
The L.E. data that I've seen is pretty much the same mentioned here although I think think its gotta be higher (semi autos & such). I have never seen data on non-LEO shootings. Just going off the top of my head using the NRA's American Rifleman non-LEO shooting stories they have monthly, I would guess its gotta be two to four rounds max.
I have seen/heard a couple of things concerning the number of rounds fired. The first is something that was claimed to be reported by the FBI, which agrees with the number Greyson gave you. According to this report the average incident was:
Those stats come from the FBI's summary of law enforcement officers killed. It does not take into account gunfights in which officers were not killed, which is the vast majority. That's why the number of shots fired is so low and the average number of deaths is one- someone got killed in each of those incidents.
The trouble with statistics is that they are almost always incomplete in some way and can almost always be manipulated to support either side of the argument.
Good points about handgun fatalities and ERs; many (maybe most) HG rounds on the street are FMJ or solids; even if not, velocities are in the sub-sonic range frequently, less than a thousand fps, so the high velocity "ballistic" type wounds are seldom seen. Usually hole in, hole out. If nothing important is hit, collateral damage is minimal and a good surgeon cleans the track, sews up, puts the pt on ab and he's out in a couple of days. Many BGs who show up in ERs have multiple scars from GSW until one gets them in the squash, liver or heart, or one of their "customers" puts a full magazine in them...
Those stats come from the FBI's summary of law enforcement officers killed. It does not take into account gunfights in which officers were not killed, which is the vast majority. That's why the number of shots fired is so low and the average number of deaths is one- someone got killed in each of those incidents.
The trouble with statistics is that they are almost always incomplete in some way and can almost always be manipulated to support either side of the argument.
I read where someone actually did a study of LEO involved shooting (where officers lived) and compared them to the FBI figuares which are all where officers died.
FBI figuares:
avg. distance: 7 feet
avg LEO hit percentage: 16%
All Officer Shootings figuares:
avg. distance opened up to 16 feet.
avg. LEO hit percentage was 67% and broke it further down to 1st and 2nd shot hits. If officer hit with the first round, the officer's chances of suriviving were 95%. If they missed with first shot: chances went down to 45%.
Those are the figuares I recall, if I can find the book, will post the title.
I think your question is a bit difficult to answer as it depends on shot placement. IMHO as many as you can until he's down. If you shot the person 15X and the police ask you why, tell him I ran out of magazine.:rock:
I have never seen any stats on civilian shootings at all. Not sure if anyone ever kept any. They probably would not be valid anyway because there are a lot of self defense shootings were no one is hit and no one reports it...
LE shootings...back in the mid-80s the average "hit" rate was 29%...the average "kill" rate was 11%. Number of rounds expended 2.7. In the mid 90s when the last time I saw it and well after most major LE agencies went semi-auto the number of rounds expended by an LEO in a gunfight was over 9. the hit rate was I believe 19% and kill rate under 10%.
In 1983 Dallas PD, where I was working at the time, had 86+- shootings. 66 of the suspects were hit and of those 34 died. The press had a field day because we killed more people than any other city in the nation....however when it was looked into Dallas PD actually had a use of deadly force rate lower than any other city per capita...we just hit what we were aiming at and used "enough gun".
....there are lies, damn lies and statistics. So it then follows that there are liars, damn liars and Statisticians....
And that is the problem...you can make the %s come out anyway you like by just ignoring something and using data to make whatever you want look like you want it to....
That was what the newspapers did to Dallas PD...they took only the kills into consideration...but when the Department called the other PDs who's numbers were used and asked the question "How many officer involved shooting did you have last year, how many hits did the officers make and of those how many died..." did the truth come out. The other PDs were shooting at people at a much higher rate per capita than we were but we looked bad because we connected at a much higher percentage. To the newspapers credit when the correct figures were given them they printed it right on the front page as a followup story and showed how DPD officers used much more restraint than the other named cities. That ended the all the crying from the community activists and city counsel members....
Bob
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