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hollow point really needed?

22K views 167 replies 55 participants last post by  Slattin 
#1 ·
in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
 
#49 ·
Paul Harell on youtube uses meat targets.....clothing, ribs front and rear, melons or fruit in between. now its still not a person but the videos are entertaining.
 
#54 ·
Chronographed a couple of different 230 gr ball loadings today. Sig Sauer, that quotes 850fps on the box, averaged 794 fps 5 shots 10' from the start screen. S&B averaged 674 fps. Both from 4 1/4" bbls. I'm guessing that if you were to shoot the Sig ammo from a 5" bbl and corrected the 10' to actual muzzle velocity it would probably break 800fps. The S&B might require a 10" bbl. It would appear from these limited test that before you decide on a carry ammo based on published data you might want to conduct some test of your own.
 
#55 ·
It's amazing we're here on the edge of 2020 and still debating the use of JHP bullets which have shown their benefits for oh, about 30-35 years. Yes, they often make a pistol cartridge more effective at stopping an adversary. Yes, they often keep a bullet from over-penetrating. There's really no down side to their use. If you feel better with antique ammo, drive on. It will likely do what it's supposed to, especially in the larger calibers such as the .45 -if you do your part in the accuracy of placement department.
 
#58 ·
a 45/70 buffalo rifle made in 1880, loaded this week with a cartridge loaded with a cast lead round nose flat point, will still kill a buffalo/bison JUST AS GOOD as it did in 1880.

I guess lead is soo ineffective. Guess we need to start making glaser safety slugs for the poor rifle. SOOOO much better on anything I guess because its NEWER?
 
#56 ·
That’s just it. I don’t think anyone is questioning the attributes of the new tech hollow points. It’s a matter of defending the old school stuff. There is far too much blabber about total ineffectiveness from old fashioned lead. I do remember reading something somewhere that a bunch of people were killed with cap and ball somewhere around the 1860’s........but I might be wrong, no one could be injured with a non aerodynamic projectile.
 
#57 · (Edited)
It's amazing how many shooters believe in the gel block results as the " to be all" SD ammo choice for their handguns .
It's just so ridiculous to think that is even close to what a human body represents , or worse yet the water jug tests .
In a real SHTF situation you don't always have a perfect straight shot to the vital areas and now throw in bones and heavy clothing , not to mention any other barriers between the two .
In a SD situation I want penetration and a big hunk of lead hitting the bad guy like a freight train and I know a Flat Nose bullet will do that and more which has proven that for decades .
I will worry about over penetration after I am still alive , and if I did my job right that should be minimal if any .
 
#67 ·
The bullet doesn't know if it was shot from a short barrel.... it's either moving fast enough to expand or it's not. Shoot anything you might carry, over a chrono and see. I have shot many loads from a 3-4.25" 1911 that are at recommended velocities to expand.

A FMJ is usually a nice smooth rounded nose... not much cutting going on. A JHP usually has an edge that will cut even if it's too slow to expand at all. But these days the bullets are much better and many are designed to expand at lower velocities.

There is only one downside to a slow moving JHP and that's the extra 15 cents per round you paid for it. Small potatoes for so much potential upside. ;)
 
#69 ·
in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.

here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.

except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
I would not use HP in short .45's, because to me, that is pointless, the bullet would not expand. I have used Silver Tips in a 5 inch barreled .45, and they did not expand all that well.
So anyway, I would use FMJ in a short barreled gun.
But have you tried it? I have, works great.

God this thread is hilarious.
 
#70 · (Edited)
I have a 45acp Colt Defender which has a 3" barrel and I can't get the GS , GD or HST to open up though it .
The bullets just act like a solid round 99% of the time , very few will start to open up just barely if at all .
So I am done paying top dollar for JHP ammo for my short barrel gun , I've went back to using Flat Nose ammo which is much better than round nose FMJ ammo by far .
And I am 100% convinced a big fat 45acp Flat Nose bullet will get the job done if I do my job right , solid ammo has been used for decades before hollow points even came around and got the job done just fine dropping the bad guys .
 
#72 · (Edited)
I'm suggesting that out of a 3.25" bbl in .45acp [like a Kimber Ultra Carry 2] or a 3" .44spl [like a Charter Arms Bulldog] a 230gr. FNFMJ (.45) or a 240gr. SWC (.44) would be just as effective as an hollow point of the same weight in those calibers if loaded to the same velocities. I say this based on the lack of expansion I've found in my own backyard type tests from factory ammo, and the lack of video evidence from other sources.
 
#74 ·
I'll not just suggest its effective, I'll say it right out. A properly designed and constructed softpoint, or a flat point solid is just as effective if not more so, than a hollow point.



If I were designing such a soft point, I would start with a profile like a FMJ RN for feeding, then cut the point off just ahead of the point where the ogive contacts the feed ramp. The core should be dead soft lead, heat bonded in the jacket, with the nose edge of the jacket turned in just enough to protect the edge of the lead core during feeding. Use a brass jacket material like the Golden Saber uses with the angled skiving to promote expansion. As for the solid, just bring back the Hornady FMJ-FP. That bullet just flat out worked. I shot well past 100k of them over the years in combat matches, and for carry. That's all we need.
 
#81 ·
Well...you can make more money by coming out with a new wonder bullet every 36 months..eg. a polymer tipped wonder thingie.

As for stopping them everything I have read indicates that that goal is tough. Ayoob once wrote that even with the heart shredded by a high energy hollowpoint-the brain has sufficient oxygenation for 10-15 seconds to pull a trigger.

So if your assailant is really doped up-or really full of rage (which may be based on hallucinations-not on what you did) stopping someone with less than a 12 gauge slug is a sometime proposition. The best that can be done, it seems, if lethal force is justified, is to hit early-hit often.

As for bullet shap- a flat appears to work pretty well. And since hollow points frequently don't expand... maybe something simple and flat is best(?)
 
#83 ·
And we put way too much emphasis on it for defensive shooting as well. The FBI has said for years that over penetration of defensive loads is statistically nonexistant.
 
#107 ·
that reputation was gained in a time when all other calibers used solid nose rounds as well. so yeah, a .38 spl 158gr. LRN was not near the "fight stopper" as a .45 acp 230 gr. fmj. I still think that in short bbl big bore guns like Bullgogs and Officer models, a solid slug is just as effective for self defense against bad guys as their contemporary hollow points.
 
#111 ·
Fancy high dollar HPs are just that, marketing.

That's how I feel about bullets shown that were fired into Ballistic Gel. Defensive shootings are rarely perfectly level and square-on shots. Clothes , muscle , bones , soft organs , all effect how and if a HP will expand. And at the relatively low velocities of the .45 ACP , well , , ,?

The original Remington 185gr SJHP+P was a real hot rod load though. The bullet was well-designed for reliability and expansion.
 
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