in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.
here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.
except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
Paul Harell on youtube uses meat targets.....clothing, ribs front and rear, melons or fruit in between. now its still not a person but the videos are entertaining.
well I guess I was wrong regarding round nose vs. flat nose in .45acp based on what those profiles do in other calibers. the best [ that I can find on-line] of repeatable testing media that might mimic a true living target is Paul Harrell's "meat target"
round nose on 38 special police ammo was a big issue for a long time. Was proven to do a good job at pushing stuff to the side to let the bullet slide through.
Chronographed a couple of different 230 gr ball loadings today. Sig Sauer, that quotes 850fps on the box, averaged 794 fps 5 shots 10' from the start screen. S&B averaged 674 fps. Both from 4 1/4" bbls. I'm guessing that if you were to shoot the Sig ammo from a 5" bbl and corrected the 10' to actual muzzle velocity it would probably break 800fps. The S&B might require a 10" bbl. It would appear from these limited test that before you decide on a carry ammo based on published data you might want to conduct some test of your own.
It's amazing we're here on the edge of 2020 and still debating the use of JHP bullets which have shown their benefits for oh, about 30-35 years. Yes, they often make a pistol cartridge more effective at stopping an adversary. Yes, they often keep a bullet from over-penetrating. There's really no down side to their use. If you feel better with antique ammo, drive on. It will likely do what it's supposed to, especially in the larger calibers such as the .45 -if you do your part in the accuracy of placement department.
a 45/70 buffalo rifle made in 1880, loaded this week with a cartridge loaded with a cast lead round nose flat point, will still kill a buffalo/bison JUST AS GOOD as it did in 1880.
I guess lead is soo ineffective. Guess we need to start making glaser safety slugs for the poor rifle. SOOOO much better on anything I guess because its NEWER?
That’s just it. I don’t think anyone is questioning the attributes of the new tech hollow points. It’s a matter of defending the old school stuff. There is far too much blabber about total ineffectiveness from old fashioned lead. I do remember reading something somewhere that a bunch of people were killed with cap and ball somewhere around the 1860’s........but I might be wrong, no one could be injured with a non aerodynamic projectile.
It's amazing how many shooters believe in the gel block results as the " to be all" SD ammo choice for their handguns .
It's just so ridiculous to think that is even close to what a human body represents , or worse yet the water jug tests .
In a real SHTF situation you don't always have a perfect straight shot to the vital areas and now throw in bones and heavy clothing , not to mention any other barriers between the two .
In a SD situation I want penetration and a big hunk of lead hitting the bad guy like a freight train and I know a Flat Nose bullet will do that and more which has proven that for decades .
I will worry about over penetration after I am still alive , and if I did my job right that should be minimal if any .
trying to get this back on topic, the hollow point vs. non-hollow point rounds were mentioned in compact [short bbl] big caliber guns, not 38s or full sized anything.
Fine, someone go ahead and tell me that a Jacketed Flat Point, 44 Mag fired from a 4” Redhawk won’t stop anything. If I didn’t know better, this would be one round that would send the bad guy flying through a window! :biglaugh:
I would not use HP in short .45's, because to me, that is pointless, the bullet would not expand. I have used Silver Tips in a 5 inch barreled .45, and they did not expand all that well.
So anyway, I would use FMJ in a short barreled gun.
The bullet doesn't know if it was shot from a short barrel.... it's either moving fast enough to expand or it's not. Shoot anything you might carry, over a chrono and see. I have shot many loads from a 3-4.25" 1911 that are at recommended velocities to expand.
A FMJ is usually a nice smooth rounded nose... not much cutting going on. A JHP usually has an edge that will cut even if it's too slow to expand at all. But these days the bullets are much better and many are designed to expand at lower velocities.
There is only one downside to a slow moving JHP and that's the extra 15 cents per round you paid for it. Small potatoes for so much potential upside.
in some calibers in some guns I wonder how much more effective a hollow point is over fmj or swc. not in ballistic gel but in real world street shootings, and not ones that are cherry picked to write a book.
here are some examples of what I'm thinking. compact .45acp (sub 4" bbl) 1911s, short bbl. big bores such as a C.A. Bulldog .44spl (or any other similar gun). of course all the various sub-calibers like .380acp and lower.
except for the sub-calibers this isn't a debate on would a hollow point be preferred in the larger calibers.... but in slow big rounds how much of a real world difference do they make?
I would not use HP in short .45's, because to me, that is pointless, the bullet would not expand. I have used Silver Tips in a 5 inch barreled .45, and they did not expand all that well.
So anyway, I would use FMJ in a short barreled gun.
I have a 45acp Colt Defender which has a 3" barrel and I can't get the GS , GD or HST to open up though it .
The bullets just act like a solid round 99% of the time , very few will start to open up just barely if at all .
So I am done paying top dollar for JHP ammo for my short barrel gun , I've went back to using Flat Nose ammo which is much better than round nose FMJ ammo by far .
And I am 100% convinced a big fat 45acp Flat Nose bullet will get the job done if I do my job right , solid ammo has been used for decades before hollow points even came around and got the job done just fine dropping the bad guys .
Now yer gonna make me search through a bunch of FivePins threads to prove that theory wrong. Are you shooting into the air and catching them when they come down??
I'm suggesting that out of a 3.25" bbl in .45acp [like a Kimber Ultra Carry 2] or a 3" .44spl [like a Charter Arms Bulldog] a 230gr. FNFMJ (.45) or a 240gr. SWC (.44) would be just as effective as an hollow point of the same weight in those calibers if loaded to the same velocities. I say this based on the lack of expansion I've found in my own backyard type tests from factory ammo, and the lack of video evidence from other sources.
I'll not just suggest its effective, I'll say it right out. A properly designed and constructed softpoint, or a flat point solid is just as effective if not more so, than a hollow point.
If I were designing such a soft point, I would start with a profile like a FMJ RN for feeding, then cut the point off just ahead of the point where the ogive contacts the feed ramp. The core should be dead soft lead, heat bonded in the jacket, with the nose edge of the jacket turned in just enough to protect the edge of the lead core during feeding. Use a brass jacket material like the Golden Saber uses with the angled skiving to promote expansion. As for the solid, just bring back the Hornady FMJ-FP. That bullet just flat out worked. I shot well past 100k of them over the years in combat matches, and for carry. That's all we need.
“Effective” perhaps. I will guarantee that a Gold Dot for short barreled guns will expand as designed. The debate on which is better is a different argument.
Well...you can make more money by coming out with a new wonder bullet every 36 months..eg. a polymer tipped wonder thingie.
As for stopping them everything I have read indicates that that goal is tough. Ayoob once wrote that even with the heart shredded by a high energy hollowpoint-the brain has sufficient oxygenation for 10-15 seconds to pull a trigger.
So if your assailant is really doped up-or really full of rage (which may be based on hallucinations-not on what you did) stopping someone with less than a 12 gauge slug is a sometime proposition. The best that can be done, it seems, if lethal force is justified, is to hit early-hit often.
As for bullet shap- a flat appears to work pretty well. And since hollow points frequently don't expand... maybe something simple and flat is best(?)
Premium modern hollow points (HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T....) have a very good record of expanding reliably, especially in self defense scenarios where you're typically only worried about shooting through clothing.
The wide flat point & SWC bullets have been well proven in the game fields. However in the game fields we aren't usually concerned with over penetration.
And we put way too much emphasis on it for defensive shooting as well. The FBI has said for years that over penetration of defensive loads is statistically nonexistant.
It has happened a couple times in my town---courtesy of gang bangers at play---one unfortunate individual was on the next block----the other was a child asleep in her crib.
Very tragic.
And this isn't uncommon in Los Angeles, either.
Apparently the FBI isn't concerned.
Something to keep in mind is that the projectile in a “overpenetration” scenario from a handgun has lost the vast majority of energy. This is not a FMJ at 3000 FPS.
I have been looking at Underwood Lehigh Extreme Defense ammo. It's fluted ammo 45acp+p. It's 120 gr @1420 fps. Loaded in nickel cases. What say ya'll on these.
that reputation was gained in a time when all other calibers used solid nose rounds as well. so yeah, a .38 spl 158gr. LRN was not near the "fight stopper" as a .45 acp 230 gr. fmj. I still think that in short bbl big bore guns like Bullgogs and Officer models, a solid slug is just as effective for self defense against bad guys as their contemporary hollow points.
Lead and Full metal jacket rounds have been doing their job since firearms were developed. Todays marketing tactics is also doing it's job well by coming up with the latest and greatest. Fancy high dollar HPs are just that, marketing.
That's how I feel about bullets shown that were fired into Ballistic Gel. Defensive shootings are rarely perfectly level and square-on shots. Clothes , muscle , bones , soft organs , all effect how and if a HP will expand. And at the relatively low velocities of the .45 ACP , well , , ,?
The original Remington 185gr SJHP+P was a real hot rod load though. The bullet was well-designed for reliability and expansion.
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