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Competitive Action Pistol shooting.....

8K views 72 replies 24 participants last post by  Jim Watson 
#1 · (Edited)
When I shoot either IDPA or USPSA matches, more individuals in my area are moving towards shooting 9mm Pistol Caliber Carbines.....some of these shooters use short barrels with suppressors, and 30 round mags.....There are many advantages to using these firearm that are not OK for pistol shooters in IDPA:

1) they are not concealed, and are already mounted to their shoulder and the muzzle pointing downward at a 45 degree angle to the ground..... this starting position will save at least one to two seconds to fire the shot, since they don't have to draw from concealment...…

2) the use of a suppressor will greatly reduce the noise, and at more than one match, we have had to have a reshoot when the SO did not record the last shot fired since he was not standing close enough for the noise to show the last shot. Using a suppressor will also slightly reduce muzzle jump....

3) 30+ round mags will save from having to make a reload....another 2-3 seconds saved during the run when their are 18 required shots.....

4) Using a shouldered Short Barrel Rifle (in 9mm) is much easier to shoot, and when using optics, is a significant advantage for accurate shot placement.

Many of the current shooters using Pistol Caliber Carbines are now placing High Overall and most finish in the top ten at the matches I attend.....which is no wonder that more shooters are buying pistol caliber carbines to show how good they can shoot!!!

I am probably going to quit shooting IDPA. The sport was originally conceived and designed for shooting pistols from concealment, not short barreled rifles that are not concealed.....the PCC users are shooting a rifle against a pistol, and do very well!

IMHO, a person that shoots a Pistol Caliber Carbine should not be included in the competitive scoring with pistol shooters.....A PCC shooter should be ranked against all PCC shooters, since they all share many competitive advantages over pistols......and ranked for all PCC shooters separately....and certainly not included in the High Overall ranking against pistol shooters.....

I know Joyce and Bill Wilson earn more money when more people attend and shoot IDPA matches, but guidelines need to be drawn up so PCC shooters are ranked against other PCC shooters, and not against Pistol shooters..... I do not know of any PCC shooters that carry their weapon concealed.....it is just not practical......:confused: I want to compete against pistol shooters....and not rifle shooters at a pistol match when looking at the overall match results!!!:confused: Good bye IDPA.....!!!
 
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#39 ·
How are 10 round magazines realistic for carbines? That demonstrates the real goal... handicapping the PCC shooter.
The first PCC I bought was to allow me to practice with a carbine and use steel. The 9mm AR and the 223 house carbine have similar recoil and the same manual of arms. This was years before PCC was allowed in USPSA, but when USPSA allowed them, it became a great venue to dial in the use of the carbine.
I think I'd find IDPA stages too limiting for PCC, but I don't care if someone wants to shoot one.
 
#40 ·
In our local USPSA outlaw matches I regularily shoot PPC in 9mm. My purpose is to keep up my "carbine" skills. I use 10 round mags exclusively to add to the practice, magazine changes!

Our league has a separate classification for PCC.

I also utilize my POST certification to do LEO and military police training at a private indoor range. The PCC allows CQC and transition drills with B-27 targets.

It really adds another dimension to their pistol training and "quals"!

Lots of fun too!
 
#43 ·
My take on PCCs is simple:

If gets more people into the sport or retains more people in the sport, I’ll support it.

I’m competing against other people in my division, so I don’t care. I’ve shot Revolver and BUG in my State’s IDPA championship and throughly enjoyed myself. Was I competitive against SSP/ ESP / CDP shooters? For the most part no, but I did beat many others in those higher capacity divisions, which is always gratifying.


Stage design has much to do with how successful a PCC shooter can be- lots of tight angles often is their nemesis.
 
#44 ·
Short barreled rifles....

A rifle is a firearm fired from the shoulder, while a pistol is a firearm fired using one or both hands.....

A PCC is a lighter and more compact rifle using a pistol round, and is fired from the shoulder.....

It is much easier to fire a shoulder mounted weapon to stabilize the firearm, and allows very precise shooting with good ammo and a good trigger....

A PCC has several distinct advantages in a sport that was designed for pistol shooting..... and the speed of firing controlled pairs with a shoulder mounted weapon that is heavier than a pistol is a big plus.....
 
#45 ·
A PCC has several distinct advantages in a sport that was designed for pistol shooting..... and the speed of firing controlled pairs with a shoulder mounted weapon that is heavier than a pistol is a big plus.....
It might be an advantage on longer shots if they were actually competing in your division. But they're not. And they have a huge disadvantage on leans, ports, prop manipulation, etc...

If you can't fire "controlled pairs" at a similar speed on closer targets, you might want to address that. We have a number of M-class pcc shooters here, and they pretty much always get beat by the top guys in open, limited, CO and even singlestack. I don't really care about that tho except to make fun of them. :rock:
 
#46 · (Edited)
I think it's funny when some guy with a 5000.00 STI gets smoked by a 500.00 PSA pcc. Not sure why it really matters, you compete against your division. Only one person wins high overall and he can be from any division. Put more practice time if you are butthurt getting beat by PCCs. I don't think they are going anywhere. 30 round mags? They work in pistols too.
 
#49 ·
I agree with Tom Freeman. Get past the overall standings and see how you rank in your division. You can also sort by age category in Practiscore, which I often do as I'm 75 which makes me a Super Senior in USPSA and a Distinguished Senior in IDPA. Also, at 75, I'm a participant or enthusiast, not a competitor.
 
#51 ·
I never cared one whit about the overall. I always sort practiscore by division.

At our club PCC is very popular, sometimes I shoot my SBR 9mm just for fun. Suppressors are forbidden.

I have never shot in Open division either, so never paid attention to their scores. As someone else stated, just ignore those competitors scores.

Its so popular that our range has also added a PCC only match to the monthly schedule, so now there's two opportunities each month to shoot a PCC.

The only down side I have seen is the belly aching from the occasional individual who doesn't like it. Like usual, you can't please everyone......So like I do with the overall scores, I just ignore them.....
 
#54 · (Edited)
USPSA match with 45 shooters.....

You seem really hung up on the term short barreled rifle. I am not sure why.
A PCC is a short barreled rifle using a pistol round. By definition, a rifle is a shoulder mounted weapon...…

In the USPSA match described by Tom Freeman, out of 45 competitors, 12 were shooting PCC's....so over 25% of the shooters were using shoulder fired weapons.

I believe there is a place for using a PCC, but not at a pistol match....IDPA and USPSA were originally conceived as a pistol match....not a short barreled rifle match..... Shooting a handgun with speed and accuracy has always been my goal in IDPA and USPSA.....not a short barreled rifle with 30+ round mags that is a shoulder mounted weapon.....

I like Ligget's idea to make PCC users at an IDPA Match limited to 10 rounds and start with a trench coat for concealment, but with a loaded gun without a round in the chamber, their start position is with hands relaxed at their sides, and not allow suppressors.....:)
 
#56 · (Edited)
SBR vs. PCC



Yup,

A Pistol Caliber Carbine is not a SBR. An SBR is not a PCC!

There are numerous distinctions including ammunition and SBR licensing/tax stamp in some neighborhoods!

Smiles,
 
#58 ·
This is somewhat true. When I shoot our PCC match I'm usually the only one with an SBR. If I were really trying to be in first place all the time I would build one that's a little heavier out front. But the length and weight of the barrel is only a small part of the equation. Tac com makes a barrel that is effectively only 5.25" with an aluminum shroud pinned to bring it to a legal 16". A friends using this barrel feels and swings very much like my SBR which has an 8" barrel. My problem with my SBR is I shoot 3-gun and Rifle matches much more frequently and that rifle is much heavier. Im constantly over swinging my SBR during transitions due to its lightness.
 
#59 ·
How to sort by divsion on Practiscore....

So you dont know how to sort the results by division instead of looking at the overall. Got it.
I do know how to sort on Practiscore….so you made an incorrect assumption.

My premise is that a "shoulder fired weapon" should not be used in a pistol match.....although a PCC is not by legal definition a "SBR," for all intents and purposed, it is a short barreled rifle.....

Although others have no issues with people using PCC's at a pistol match, right or wrong, I do not want to see them at a pistol match..... A PCC has many advantages to shoot fast and accurately versus a pistol, which is why many are using the PCC.....

There are those that think shooting a PCC at a pistol match is fine....but I disagree and think shoulder fired weapons should compete in a rifle match....:(
 
#60 ·
Well the bottom line is your opinion doesn't matter and the cat is already out of the bag.

Also a PCC is not a short barreled rifle, so you can keep trying to say it is but it just makes you sound silly. The majority of people at matches with PCCs have 16 inch barrels with 2-3 inches of muzzle brake on top of that. Some have 14 inch barrels with a welded on muzzle brake. Still not an SBR.
 
#61 ·
Would it be ok for them to pull their folding stock pcc out of their backpack, on the clock, to shoot it from concealment? Guess you don't do steel challenge much as the .22 shooters can run some stages pretty fast. Main reason for divisions and classifications. I compare myself overall in scores for the 5k run and guns I do, but most of the competitors are running similar stuff. Hard to compare overall against so many fast shooters in our local uspsa matches.
 
#62 · (Edited)
A PCC is not a short barreled rifle....

Also a PCC is not a short barreled rifle, so you can keep trying to say it is but it just makes you sound silly. The majority of people at matches with PCCs have 16 inch barrels with 2-3 inches of muzzle brake on top of that. Some have 14 inch barrels with a welded on muzzle brake. Still not an SBR.
So you believe a shoulder fired weapon, with 30 round mags, not concealed, using a center fire pistol cartridge, and using a muzzle brake, is a pistol.....? I just don't think so....I think it makes you sound sillier....I think it fits the description of a rifle:

Rifle - A shoulder-mounted firearm, having a series of spiral grooves (rifling) cut inside the barrel that impart a rapid spin to the single projectile, gyroscopically stabilizing it in flight for greatly improved accuracy over that of a smoothbore gun.

IMHO, a PCC is not a pistol and not necessarily a short barreled rifle, but I don't think it was intended to be used in a pistol match.....

Since a shoulder fired PCC is faster and more accurate to shoot, it has become very popular to be used in a pistol match...…so allowances have been made to allow their use..... In IDPA, where drawing a handgun from concealment is still the norm, a PCC is not holstered or concealed....and really doesn't fit the idea of drawing a handgun from concealment.....so it does not compete on a level playing field.....

When I am out in public, I have been carrying a concealed handgun in FL since the state changed the laws to allow "shall issue" concealed weapon permits in 1988.....for those that meet the qualifications, the state will issue a permit. Here is the Florida statute for concealed carry, and a PCC is not allowed since it is not a handgun:

790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm.—

(1) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section. Each such license must bear a color photograph of the licensee. For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie…..
 
#65 · (Edited)
.....so it does not compete on a level playing field.....
Not even close to accurate. A PCC shooter is not competing against an Open shooter or a Limited shooter, nor is a Production shooter competing against an Open shooter. This is why we have divisions.

Your argument is like a Production shooter complaining about Open shooters.

The Pistol caliber in PCC is why it fits in a match with stages designed for a pistol as opposed to a rifle. The rifle stages at most matches I have attended, are designed with much farther distances than a PCC could manage.

You don't like em, We get that, Im sure my views won't change your mind. But the division is getting more and more popular. The host ranges are getting more used to running a match with them so they run more smoothly than at first. And they are fun to run.

Where do you attend matches here in Florida?

edited to add that my perspective is from the USPSA side of competition, but my comments apply to either. There is no such thing as leveling the playing field. Every match I have ever been to, all competitors played by the same rules, on the exact same stages, scored exactly the same for each competitor. By their respective divisions. It can't get any more level than that.....(I do not shoot IDPA, I have, but choose not too)
 
#63 · (Edited)
Just in case... Sorting on Practiscore is as simple as clicking on your class: Limited=LTD. Click on LTD and the class results will then pull up. FWIW, I'm of the opinion that a shoulder fired weapon with a 16" barrel, regardless of caliber is a rifle. That being said, I don't mind competing against them when I'm shooting a pistol/handgun. I have a couple of PCCs and love shooting them. Without a doubt, they're easier to shoot and hit with, which is why every Military on the planet outfits their troops with rifles.

We had several shooting AR rimfires yesterday at the Steel Challenge Match where I shot, (CASA, I was 2nd of 4 in Limited Class). It's pretty tough to compete against that. Although they're not in my class, I compete against everyone. I try to be first overall, but I never have been first overall, or second, or third. But I try. Also, I never have figured out why the rimfire handgun guys can start from low ready, vice from the holster.
 
#66 ·
I never have figured out why the rimfire handgun guys can start from low ready, vice from the holster.
They dont make very many decent holsters for rimfire handguns. Just el cheapo Uncle Mikes nylon garbage. So rather than have someone drop a pistol or have an AD trying to get the pistol out, low ready is what it became.
 
#64 ·
It brings in additional match fees

You can filter PractiScore instead of overall

They are fun as heck!

We get to kid PCC shooters about their lack of pistol skills during matches


I understand the premise of the OP that it is not concealable and not in the vein of IDPA's goal, but being inclusive helps us all. It is a game after all. Not allowing them will just drive shooters to other matches. Most of our PCC shooters shoot it as a second gun.
 
#69 · (Edited)
Holsters for .22 pistols?

This one fits in a lot of holsters! :)


Nelson an a Fusion receiver. Out shoots my M41!

Smiles,
 

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#71 ·
My opinion on PCC's.....

Your argument is like a Production shooter complaining about Open shooters.
NO....it is about a rifle competing against a pistol for High Overall ranking .....at least in the Open Division with a compensated handgun, it is still a pistol vs. a Production pistol...

I would much prefer to see the results of the High Overall pistol shooter, and have a separate ranking for High Overall PCC in ANY action pistol match.....a shoulder fired PCC is not a handgun.....
 
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