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-   -   Competitive Action Pistol shooting..... (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=1005090)

Rwehavinfunyet 12-05-2019 06:45 AM

Competitive Action Pistol shooting.....
 
When I shoot either IDPA or USPSA matches, more individuals in my area are moving towards shooting 9mm Pistol Caliber Carbines.....some of these shooters use short barrels with suppressors, and 30 round mags.....There are many advantages to using these firearm that are not OK for pistol shooters in IDPA:

1) they are not concealed, and are already mounted to their shoulder and the muzzle pointing downward at a 45 degree angle to the ground..... this starting position will save at least one to two seconds to fire the shot, since they don't have to draw from concealment...…

2) the use of a suppressor will greatly reduce the noise, and at more than one match, we have had to have a reshoot when the SO did not record the last shot fired since he was not standing close enough for the noise to show the last shot. Using a suppressor will also slightly reduce muzzle jump....

3) 30+ round mags will save from having to make a reload....another 2-3 seconds saved during the run when their are 18 required shots.....

4) Using a shouldered Short Barrel Rifle (in 9mm) is much easier to shoot, and when using optics, is a significant advantage for accurate shot placement.

Many of the current shooters using Pistol Caliber Carbines are now placing High Overall and most finish in the top ten at the matches I attend.....which is no wonder that more shooters are buying pistol caliber carbines to show how good they can shoot!!!

I am probably going to quit shooting IDPA. The sport was originally conceived and designed for shooting pistols from concealment, not short barreled rifles that are not concealed.....the PCC users are shooting a rifle against a pistol, and do very well!

IMHO, a person that shoots a Pistol Caliber Carbine should not be included in the competitive scoring with pistol shooters.....A PCC shooter should be ranked against all PCC shooters, since they all share many competitive advantages over pistols......and ranked for all PCC shooters separately....and certainly not included in the High Overall ranking against pistol shooters.....

I know Joyce and Bill Wilson earn more money when more people attend and shoot IDPA matches, but guidelines need to be drawn up so PCC shooters are ranked against other PCC shooters, and not against Pistol shooters..... I do not know of any PCC shooters that carry their weapon concealed.....it is just not practical......:confused: I want to compete against pistol shooters....and not rifle shooters at a pistol match when looking at the overall match results!!!:confused: Good bye IDPA.....!!!

anonymouscuban 12-05-2019 06:56 AM

I don't shoot IDPA but do shoot USPSA. I agree with everything you said. PCC needs to form their own league with stages designed specifically for them. The idea that it draws new shooters is crap. What happens is all the **** pistol shooters that can't compete switch to PCC.

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Rwehavinfunyet 12-05-2019 07:34 AM

PCC in a pistol match
 
Quote:

What happens is all the **** pistol shooters that can't compete switch to PCC.
It's a trend....:)

Jim Watson 12-05-2019 08:14 AM

Not as much as I thought it was going to be. We only had one carbine at the mid-week USPSA match yesterday. It did not function well at all, the operator's response expanded my vocabulary. DIY PCCs and attempts at tweaking power factor for a 16" barrel lead to a lot of malfunctions.

MikeRussell 12-05-2019 08:42 AM

While we have a few PCC shooters in our area (S Louisiana), it's not taking over the USPSA here. They still get beat by Open shooters (and occasionally a CO or Ltd shooter).

As far as IDPA, I see even fewer of them...but we only have 1 active club in Louisiana.

I am firmly in the "don't bring a rifle to a pistol competition" camp, but I don't get to make the rules...just have to enforce them in the match.

Tim Burke 12-05-2019 09:00 AM

Perhaps if the sports had different divisions, so that PCC shooters were compared to PCC shooters, SSP shooters were compared to SSP shooters, and Production shooters were compared to Production shooters...

Tom Freeman 12-05-2019 09:21 AM

PCC is just a division within the sport. Some clubs might lump all the divisions in one big scoresheet but it isnt hard to break them out.

If your going to quit shooting IDPA because you got your feelings hurt by someone shooting a PCC, you need to toughen up a little. Its just a game.

Tim Burke 12-05-2019 10:32 AM

From the IDPA Rulebook 1.1.D

Quote:

Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that firearms with similar characteristics are grouped together and people with similar skill levels compete against each other.

Big Pete10 12-05-2019 11:00 AM

I have not shot IDPA for a few years now. The way it was back when, there were different classes for different handguns. Has it changed that much?

Kilrb 12-05-2019 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymouscuban (Post 13002908)
I don't shoot IDPA but do shoot USPSA. I agree with everything you said. PCC needs to form their own league with stages designed specifically for them. The idea that it draws new shooters is crap. What happens is all the **** pistol shooters that can't compete switch to PCC.

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Agree I shoot USPSA as well they need a separate league. I see some clubs setting stages harder for them to shoot now also

motosapiens 12-05-2019 01:23 PM

I guess I don't care that much about people in other divisions.

waktasz 12-05-2019 01:25 PM

Overall results really don't matter, you are only competing against people in your own division. Also suppressors aren't allowed in USPSA, not sure about IDPA.

It's fun to make fun of them, but it your complaints are pretty much irrelevant. Do you have the same issues with Carry Optics shooters or Open division shooters when you do USPSA?

jjfitch 12-05-2019 02:29 PM

I'm confused the USPSA matches I've been to, PCC was a separate class. All were 16" 9mm's. Didn't see any with suppressors. Open shooters still took all the "marbles"!

Smiles,

waktasz 12-05-2019 02:33 PM

Suppressors aren't allowed in USPSA. SBRs are but they have to be legal SBRs, not 9mm AR "pistols" with a brace

Jim Watson 12-05-2019 02:55 PM

I've seen that last part allowed to slide in club matches. Braces are so kewl, you know, and one entry fee is as good as another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz (Post 13003172)
Do you have the same issues with Carry Optics shooters or Open division shooters when you do USPSA?

No, at least they are still pistols. IPSC/USPSA was a pistol sport for about 40 years before the wannabe tommygunners came along, and IDPA SAYS Pistol.

GunBugBit 12-05-2019 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet (Post 13002896)
IMHO, a person that shoots a Pistol Caliber Carbine should not be included in the competitive scoring with pistol shooters.....A PCC shooter should be ranked against all PCC shooters, since they all share many competitive advantages over pistols......and ranked for all PCC shooters separately....and certainly not included in the High Overall ranking against pistol shooters.....

Definitely agree.

But I guess everyone understands when they see that a PCC shooter won overall. It's expected. And the top Open guys will still do better than the top revolver guys, etc.

But I'm with you on the spirit of "a handgun competition should involve only handguns." By now, there are enough PCC shooters, I imagine they could run their own matches.

waktasz 12-05-2019 03:42 PM

meh. I feel like it's complaining about nothing.

I was definitely a hater in the beginning, but for different reasons. Until they got the procedures down it slowed down the matches and people were designing stages differently because of it.
Now it's not even a thing.

We still make fun of them though, that's allowed.

motosapiens 12-05-2019 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GunBugBit (Post 13003238)
Definitely agree.

But I guess everyone understands when they see that a PCC shooter won overall. It's expected. And the top Open guys will still do better than the top revolver guys, etc.

a) overall isn't a thing.
b) pcc shooters only 'win' the overall if there is no real heat in other divisions and even then only if they are serious pcc shooters. I would be shocked if a pcc was high overall at one of our matches.

motosapiens 12-05-2019 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz (Post 13003252)
meh. I feel like it's complaining about nothing.

I was definitely a hater in the beginning, but for different reasons. Until they got the procedures down it slowed down the matches and people were designing stages differently because of it.
Now it's not even a thing.

We still make fun of them though, that's allowed.

Exactly how I feel. Now that they are not slowing down the match, I only care long enough to mock them a bit, especially in the unusual event that one of them finishes in front of me (I shoot lim or SS). Actually some of my best friends shoot pcc. I think that makes me diverse and open-minded. :rock:

Tim Burke 12-05-2019 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz (Post 13003252)
We still make fun of them though, that's allowed.

No, it's not allowed.


It's required.

markm 12-05-2019 06:11 PM

The IDPA matches at my club usually draw around 60 shooters and of them about 8-10 PCC's, some of which shoot a pistol class too. Except for the nubs they usually clean up but not always. For the reasons you mentioned I don't think PCC shooters are on an even playing field, well that at strong/weak hand only shooting is a joke. I think they only thing that slows them down are mandatory reloads and sometimes shooting from a vehicle or the like. The only thing that slows the matches down is they don't come to the line ready but with a case and somebody has to bring that when they finish but that's not that much.
All in all I just ignore the PCC's in the scores and it's fun anyway. I mean I could shoot PCC too but I go there for P.

liggett 12-05-2019 06:18 PM

My take on PCC in IDPistolA is that, "I think", it was incorporated as an attempt to get more "NEW" and"crossover" shooters into IDPA.
However, new shooters rarely pick a PCC as their first competition firearm, and the "crossover" ain't happening. Most USPSA PCC shooters aren't too interested in running an 18 round max course of fire with their 30 round PCC. And I don't blame them.
The PCC shooters I see at IDPA matches were already shooting IDPA handgun.

Tom Freeman 12-05-2019 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson (Post 13003222)
IPSC/USPSA was a pistol sport for about 40 years before the wannabe tommygunners came along,


Hmmm.

International Practical Shooting Confederation.
United States practical Shooting Assn.

Not finding the word pistol in either one of them.

I just dont get it. How are PCC shooters actually hurting you? It is getting more people out shooting instead of sitting at home.

Isnt that what we want? For the Sport to continue?

I shoot every division other than L-10. And thats because I dont live in a 10 round state.

Jim Watson 12-05-2019 10:24 PM

You guys in the Separate Divisions camp need to lobby Practiscore to quit posting overall standings.

Tom Freeman 12-05-2019 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson (Post 13003658)
You guys in the Separate Divisions camp need to lobby Practiscore to quit posting overall standings.

Or, maybe take a second to learn how to sort using the second column where it lists overall and then all the other divisions.

Most people around here like to see the overall and then take a look at how they did in their own division.


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