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-   -   9mm STI or CZ or ...? (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=985334)

drdaytona 02-25-2019 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Post (Post 12753526)
CGW Shadow is another one that adds to the confusion. :)

Compared to the factory Shadow Orange, how is it different?

It's a Lingenfelter versus Hennesy conversation, if the car analogy works for you. Two custom shops doing work on the same beastie.

WaterDR 02-25-2019 12:46 PM

Well....not really. A Custom Shawdow is not a TSO....unless I guess yiu go SA 🙂

Sid Post 02-25-2019 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaterDR (Post 12753568)
Well....not really. A Custom Shawdow is not a TSO....unless I guess yiu go SA 🙂

A Target Orange is a factory IDPA pistol. The Shadow is a reworked standard pistol from a custom shop. ;)

Sid Post 02-25-2019 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdaytona (Post 12753556)
It's a Lingenfelter versus Hennesy conversation, if the car analogy works for you. Two custom shops doing work on the same beastie.

Target Orange is a factory pistol, isn't it?

The other is a reworked pistol from a good gunsmith.

So more of a Demon/Hellcat vs. aftermarket car tuner comparison! ;)

drdaytona 02-25-2019 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Post (Post 12753594)
Target Orange is a factory pistol, isn't it?

The other is a reworked pistol from a good gunsmith.

So more of a Demon/Hellcat vs. aftermarket car tuner comparison! ;)

Well, it's an in house custom shop model so an AMG versus Renntech :biglaugh:

drdaytona 02-25-2019 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Post (Post 12753588)
A Target Orange is a factory IDPA pistol. The Shadow is a reworked standard pistol from a custom shop. ;)

The confusion is the "Orange" nomenclature. They make an SP-01 Shadow Orange and a Tactical Sports Orange.

drdaytona 02-25-2019 01:39 PM

One last thought, I bought my daughter and her boyfriend both a stock SP-01 for Christmas and they are great guns even stock. You could buy the standard model then cajunize to taste over time...

motosapiens 02-26-2019 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker2237 (Post 12752816)
Top 5 people usually, it's annoying but true. The 2011s simply have faster triggers and a better overall shape.


unless eric grauffel shows up with his tanfoglio (based on cz design).

cz and tanfo are pretty popular in europe, and their shooters are no worse than ours (and in the case of grauffel, consistently better).

I personally prefer a 2011, but only because it's easier to switch back and forth with singlestack. The cz platforms in general are less finicky and more reliable in addition to being less expensive.

motosapiens 02-26-2019 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker2237 (Post 12752998)
Not in this case. An unloaded start WILL be faster with a 2011 vs a TS simply due to the shape of the gun so the 2011 will ALWAYS be better for someone of a given skill level. I handle my guns dry and practice motions with them like crazy and the absolute fastest guns to handle are 2011s and Glocks with 1911s after that and then CZs.


I'm only an M in limited and SS, and I've done a few unloaded starts with both 2011 and CZ. What exactly about the shape of a 2011 is supposed to make it faster for me?

Striker2237 02-26-2019 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motosapiens (Post 12754772)
I'm only an M in limited and SS, and I've done a few unloaded starts with both 2011 and CZ. What exactly about the shape of a 2011 is supposed to make it faster for me?

Larger slide and overall more square, bigger area for your hand to interact with.

But don't get mad at me, I use CZs for competition since they fit me well. For most though 2011s are better and it shows.

motosapiens 02-27-2019 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker2237 (Post 12754932)
Larger slide and overall more square, bigger area for your hand to interact with.

sounds like you're talking about just the racking of the slide? I can see where if someone didn't practice, that would take a tenth longer with the slighlty less tall cz slide. I always had success with practice.

I also think unloaded starts are a fairly insignificant part of uspsa shooting. Even for someone who doesn't practice, losing 1/10 second every 3 matches is probably better than having malfunctions. Maybe I was lucky, but I was unable to EVER have even a single malfunction in my TacSport in 10k or so rounds.

YVK 02-27-2019 10:41 AM

That totally depends on how folks build stages. Locally I joke that I dont need to practice draw that much because, other than classifiers, I barely ever have to draw and fire. Out of average 6 stages at least two will start with gun not in holster.
In regards to TSO, again, the main idiosyncrasy is thumb safety ergos, but I personally simply cannot rack the slide overhead/forward grab if there is a thumb pedal.

BTW, rumor is that Grauffel is no longer with Tanfo.

Sierra 49er 02-27-2019 10:50 AM

Why a 9? There are many other alternatives out there to consider. 40 S&W, 380. 45 ACP, 10mm, etc.

Striker2237 02-27-2019 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motosapiens (Post 12755624)
sounds like you're talking about just the racking of the slide? I can see where if someone didn't practice, that would take a tenth longer with the slighlty less tall cz slide. I always had success with practice.

I also think unloaded starts are a fairly insignificant part of uspsa shooting. Even for someone who doesn't practice, losing 1/10 second every 3 matches is probably better than having malfunctions. Maybe I was lucky, but I was unable to EVER have even a single malfunction in my TacSport in 10k or so rounds.

Hand the average person a TS frame gun, then hand them a 2011. Most people will reach the controls and have a more natural grip on a 2011 over a TS. Again I am a TS shooter so for me personally CZ all the way BUT FOR MOST in general a 2011 is better.

jmr986 03-03-2019 12:32 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Love my TSO, my most shot gun out of 16. Got the optic mount and put a Trijicon on it. I have small hands and the gun fits fine. The thumb rest really helps control the gun. The smaller top of slide, especially with the mount, doesn’t leave a lot of real estate to rack the slide. But I manage. I’m used to revolvers so it took some getting used to the light trigger. Use for carry? No. Too heavy and the trigger is to light, but you do get 20 rounds, where legal. Buy one, if you don’t like it, sell it. The demand is there. My LGS had 5 9mm’s on Monday and none on Thursday.

Attachment 548708

andrew1220 03-03-2019 06:58 AM

Cz ftw!

DaveVK 03-03-2019 09:30 AM

All this talk and no pics...

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/...psr9zn8ckf.jpg

CZ 85B worked over by CGW. Could be just as good with a 75B or SP01 or steel compact base gun. The optic negates the need for long sight radius.

JOHNGUM 03-03-2019 10:22 AM

"OR?" - Since you are willing to go into the + 1000 range, you should go onto the 1911 forum manufacturer site "fusion firearms". they make a number of serious 1911s in many caliber. Read the reviews posted and you may find there is a model which will fit all your requirements. And they will customize to your hearts content! I have an entry model but it more than does all I ask of it; so the "better" ones will be what you need.

YVK 03-03-2019 10:47 AM

@DaveVK: that optic is almost guaranteed to fail between 2,000 and 10,000 rounds. If it were a carry gun, I'd make sure it had functional backup irons.

Striker2237 03-03-2019 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveVK (Post 12759572)
All this talk and no pics...

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/...psr9zn8ckf.jpg

CZ 85B worked over by CGW. Could be just as good with a 75B or SP01 or steel compact base gun. The optic negates the need for long sight radius.

That optic will die. That setup is also no good for carry since you have no backup irons. You need a direct cut for a dpp and irons with at least a lower 8th cowittness.

DaveVK 03-03-2019 01:00 PM

Its not a Self Defense gun; did not want back up sights. I know the BATTERY will die -- wasn't aware that Leopold's Delta Point Pro had issues. Ya'll been taking advantage of its lifetime warranty? Mine is the 3 moa version. I use primarily 124 gr standard pressure stuff -- forget what recoil spring weight, but tuned to throw brass about 6-10 feet away.

YVK 03-03-2019 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveVK (Post 12759736)
Ya'll been taking advantage of its lifetime warranty?

Oh yes. My first unit went back to Leupold at about 2,000 rounds, then again at about 5,000 rounds. It is now at 8,000 but I am not shooting that gun these days.

My second unit is 2000 rounds old, and I just bought a third one for a backup. There is not one DPP owner who I know personally and who didn't have to send theirs for a repair. My friend and his wife broke about 11 between two of them, and his buddy broke 8, but those folks shoot 50,000+ rounds annually. Overall, we think that DPP is 2,000 to 10,000 rounds optic, but we're aware of one that went 20,000.

DaveVK 03-03-2019 02:29 PM

Bummer about the DPP. I'm already north of 2K.

Back on point-- I can wholeheartedly recommend CZ (and CGW for the improved Hammer, springs, pins...). I love my Matte Stainless even with its stock hammer, trigger and sights. The final break is crisp despite feeling the hammer cam, fpb lift, etc. May change out the sights as they are the biggest detriment. Does have the 3 spring kit. My PCR (in addition to the 3 spring kit) really benefited from CGW's 10x barrel bushing. It is now fun to shoot because it shoots tight groups. Best $60 I spent on a handgun.

Even with a full custom job from CGW, the final product won't break your budget.

Sid Post 03-03-2019 06:32 PM

Today I held a CZC Target Shadow 2 in my hands along with a plain jane SP-01 variant and a couple of others.

I really like the SA/DA trigger pulls. Even fully down, versus half-cock notch, it was super smooth and light. The fit and balance were a good match for my hands and prior pistol learning curves. I'm seriously thinking about the CZC Shadow Orange now. The main negative I saw in this brief exposure was the short slide serrations and the general lack of much slide real-estate to grab in failure drills.

Sid

Sid Post 03-03-2019 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOHNGUM (Post 12759624)
"OR?" - Since you are willing to go into the + 1000 range, you should go onto the 1911 forum manufacturer site "fusion firearms". they make a number of serious 1911s in many caliber. Read the reviews posted and you may find there is a model which will fit all your requirements. And they will customize to your hearts content! I have an entry model but it more than does all I ask of it; so the "better" ones will be what you need.

The 1911 variants are attractive but, to be honest, I think the CZC Shadow Orange is a cheaper overall solution that also aligns better with my past semi-auto pistol experience. The grip angle and fit to my hand on the CZ is just plain better. I'm sure I could learn to run a 1911 well but, why when the CZ option is sitting there too? The hi-caps magazines are a non-issue to me as well whether I'm carrying 20+ rounds in one or ~20 in two.


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