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-   -   What's wrong with idpa? (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=1003294)

ccwlaw 11-05-2019 06:59 PM

What's wrong with idpa?
 
I just read in the blue press about another new pistol organization called action shooting international and their hand sized championship. What is it about idpa that causes these organizations to spring up touting relaxed rules and the use of guns real people carry?

Jim Watson 11-05-2019 10:40 PM

I've been reading about ASI for some time now.
As you say, there is interest in simpler rules.
IDPA rules of engagement are very prescriptive.
USPSA is freestyle shooting with complicated scoring.
There are lots of local matches that pick and choose. Mostly freestyle shooting with time plus scoring.
In my theater of operation there are four types of action match, USPSA, IDPA, and two different home grown systems.
I am just as glad to not be in GADPA space, that scoring makes my head hurt.

Snoopy47 11-05-2019 10:42 PM

I think it really comes down the local clubs hosting matches, and the volunteer base that supports it. Their interests essentially drive what events are shot.

Rwehavinfunyet 11-06-2019 06:23 AM

What's wromg with IDPA....?
 
The premise for IDPA is sound. It is an action shooting match based on scenarios that could really happen when carrying a concealed weapon.

The biggest problem I have found with IDPA is the stage designs. Well meaning stage designers often design stages that cause newer shooters to have procedural errors which alienates shooters from the sport.

At my local match last month, we had a stage design where the shooter had to wear their concealment garment, the loaded gun holstered, while seated on a bar stool close to a wooden table top/shooting bench. The shooter had to start the stage with hands flat on the table, and their feet were not allowed to touch the ground....all shooting was done while seated on the bar stool. If I were in a real shoot out situation, sitting on a bar stool, I would get off the bar stool while drawing my gun, and use the table as cover.....the idea of shooting 18 rounds while sitting upright on a bar stool with my upper body totally exposed, is in my opinion, a scenario that would never really happen in an actual real defensive shooting, so the premise of the stage design is flawed.

When the buzzer sounded, I slipped my hand inside my cover garment, drew my gun but being careful to avoid the muzzle sweeping my thigh. Before I even fired a shot, the SO stopped me, and said I swept my knee....!:( I don't think I did, but you can't argue with an SO that has made a DQ on a safety call, and there was no way to prove or disprove the SO's call.....I left the match quite angry, and was having a good match until I was DQ'd.

All of this could have been avoided by avoiding the stage design of sitting on a bar stool with a loaded and holstered gun.....since the table top was already in front of the bar stool, it would have been best to start with the loaded gun on the table or in a box on the table to avoided any safety issues. Out of the 75+ shooters that attended, quite a fee shooters were DQ'd on the stage, and a better stage design could have prevented this while still providing a good stage...…

When I draw my holstered gun, my finger never enters the trigger guard until I am extending the gun toward the target and at the same time, I click the thumb safety off of my STI 2011 gun when the gun is level and I am extending the gun...… I don't think I actually swept my knee....but if the SO's and Match Director knew it was a safety issue when drawing from a seated bar stool.....set up the stage design to prevent any safety issues and possible DQ's...….it is not rocket science! :confused:

M-Peltier 11-06-2019 06:30 AM

Whats wrong with it?
The rules suck..

In an attempt to NOT be like USPSA, when IDPA was developed they focused so much on being realistic, they took too much of the fun out of it.

Rwehavinfunyet 11-06-2019 06:50 AM

The rules suck....
 
One rule I have never understood:

When conducting a tac reload, you have to retain a mag with any rounds remaining in the mag, otherwise you will earn a 3 second PE penalty...…

IDPA shooters know there is not more than 18 "required" shots on any IDPA stage design. Depending on the gun division, the ESP and Production divisions allow ten round mags with 10+1 in the gun to start, and two spare 10 round mags on their shooting belt.....a total of 31 rounds when starting cocked and locked.....

I say let the shooter drop any mag at any time with or without rounds remaining in the mag..... it is up to the shooter to decide when and where they feel it is necessary to make a reload.....and if they run out of ammo, they may take a huge penalty on misses or targets that were not engaged....:rock: IDPA is a game....and seldom has realistic scenarios for defensive shooting. The only good thing about shooting IDPA is it may allow good and improved gun handling skills!

combat auto 11-06-2019 06:58 AM

General rule of organization's: As they grow larger and larger, they create more rules, dogma's, and inefficiencies. (And very often corruption and cronyism but lets assume we can leave these two attributes out of shooting organizations)...The only saving grace would be if despite the above, the organization provides enough "value" to the service of its member to counteract the downside.

Never shot IDPA, but it seems like a good org...Shot USPSA for a few year's, yep, many rules, good learning experience though when I was on a steep learning curve for the first several years of shooting. Later on, not the most efficient way to maintain and improve my skills. Efficient means bang for the buck. Buck here means time spent at the range...But if I didn't have individual access to an outdoor multi-target move around shooting environment on my own, I'd probably still be going to the matches as they do add value over just shooting at a linear indoor range. Just works for me, don't claim it is the best for anyone else.

Ricky T 11-06-2019 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson (Post 12980038)
I am just as glad to not be in GADPA space, that scoring makes my head hurt.

Hehehe

yeti 11-06-2019 07:40 AM

IDPA can be a really good experience and great competitive events. It is a game.... like USPSA is a game. A different game with a CCW twist and way more rules, but it is still a game.
Some IDPA events take stage design too far and matches become awkward and too punitive, which is neither educational nor enjoyable.
Safety is paramount, but some go well beyond. This really is tough on newer IDPA shooters and drives folks to seek out other events that have a higher fun ratio and less "range-lawyers."
Last year's rule relaxation on foot movement and reloads were a step ;) in the right direction IMO, but it may be too little too late.

Jim Watson 11-06-2019 08:16 AM

The main problem I see with the local affairs is that they are, well, local.
You might do very well at Kalamazoo Kombat but if you want to broaden your horizons, there will be a learning curve to get acquainted with IDPA or USPSA.

drail 11-06-2019 09:15 AM

I am almost hesitant to criticize IDPA after getting banned from one forum for doing that very thing. Over the years USPSA match designs became silly and too many guys were concentrating mainly of how to "game" the rules (cheat). Wilson and Hackathorn gave us IDPA. I never understood requiring reloads only from slide lock with an empty gun. I learned in USPSA that you will get better times if you count rounds and never shoot the gun dry. Now I am required to shoot the gun dry? I would rather count rounds and reload with the slide forward with a round in the chamber rather than "hope" the slide stop locks open on empty every time AND never locks open with rounds left in the magazine (I've had both happen more than once). If you shoot the gun dry you will never catch up with the guys who never have to "slingshot" or drop the slide with the stop.

robertrwalsh 11-06-2019 10:01 AM

There are some stage designers in IDPA who seem to revel in how "interesting" they can make a stage as opposed to how close to practical reality they can make one. As noted by others above, that can be frustrating and irritating to those of us who want to burn some powder, have some fun and get a little semi-realistic practice at the same time. I am a fan of the "whip it out, start shooting, move to cover, reload, shoot some more" school of stage design.

Jim Watson 11-06-2019 10:02 AM

Quote:

I would rather count rounds and reload with the slide forward with a round in the chamber
Counting rounds does not seem profitable, either; not since Jeff Cooper advocated it with 7 in the gun. All the USPSA shooters I know (Me, too.) reload by location. When you've shot two 4 target arrays out of a 17+1 gun, it is time to reload, no counting required.

I used to worry that I would forget the rules and techniques and speed load my CDP or shoot my Lim dry, but I eventually found out I could "program my brain" as M. Ayoob said, to go by the rule du jour.

I just got word the other day that the local police league was instituting another tribal rule change. I hope I can add it to the programming without too much fuss. See post 10.

havanajim 11-06-2019 10:39 AM

This will likely ruffle some feathers, but so be it....

I used to shoot both disciplines, and in my humble opinion, IDPA takes itself way too seriously, and USPSA shed the 'P' a long, long time ago - as in: there's hardly anything 'Practical' that remains in USPSA. As mentioned by others, both are merely games, but games that should place the emphasis on helping to develop shooting skills under a semblance of 'stress' and not on pretending to be anything else. IDPA is not 'training', and, although not by design I'm sure, its odd rules should help make that point obvious to all. USPSA became a 'gamer' game and an out of control equipment race - where, again, practicality went out the window.

The original intent of both games was commendable, but as with anything that involves people, sooner or later, it goes awry. I commend the folks running the local matches, and not just because I'm one of them. But rather, it's because of those folks running the 'outlaw' events that people who are otherwise reluctant to shoot the established disciplines, for whatever reasons, can get involved and can still benefit from the many positives of competition - without drowning in 'rules' or restrictions, or thinking they don't have what it takes.

I fear Cowboy Action has gone down the same path as USPSA where speed is pushed at the expense of accuracy and practicality. The targets are getting bigger, moving closer and it seems to be all about speed and slicked up guns now. Unfortunately, accuracy is an ever more distant secondary consideration.

While I would never discourage anyone from shooting any of the disciplines, I do encourage everyone, particularly those new to competition, to try the local, 'outlaw' matches. You never know what you'll find, and they might just strike your fancy! :) :) :)

Jacobconroy75 11-06-2019 10:54 AM

I'm a noobie and had planned to start either USPSA or IDPA until I started learning about them. Both (at first glance) seem to be so complicated that I lost interest.

Luckily the local club would be considered "outlaw" and I'm going to get involved with them next spring. Like others here said, I just want to have fun and get some practice. The "big two" seem like too much work to get started. Daunting might be the right word.

Big Pete10 11-06-2019 12:48 PM

IDPA is a game, with a game comes rules and gaming. The intent originally may have been based on self defense but it has become a game with many rules that would never apply in a self defense situation. Shoot and enjoy..... It wouldn't be fun if all you shoot is 1 or 2 rounds in a stage.

AndyC 11-06-2019 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet (Post 12980148)
The biggest problem I have found with IDPA is the stage designs. Well meaning stage designers often design stages that cause newer shooters to have procedural errors which alienates shooters from the sport.

Yep. I got dinged for doing a mag-change on the move while I was still "behind cover" (long wall) and advancing toward the next section. I've done this stuff for real, so they can shove their dumb theories and their game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by havanajim (Post 12980374)
I used to shoot both disciplines, and in my humble opinion, IDPA takes itself way too seriously, and USPSA shed the 'P' a long, long time ago

Yep.

waktasz 11-06-2019 03:43 PM

In some ways now it's better than ever before and in other ways, it's worse. Fault lines eliminated the subjective cover calls, so that's a major plus.

I shot three IDPA majors this year (trying to win Walther contingency money, mission accomplished) and enjoyed all of them. I shot one local match at my home club, which is the most well attended club in the area, and it was TERRIBLE. Your enjoyment of the match is really really dependent on the match director and the "flavor" of the stage designs.

The one second per point down thing makes it really boring to watch or shoot though. In "real life" I would NEVER shoot a perp that slowly. My recent force on force experience just 100% reinforces that.

I'll shoot more IDPA next year, but again, only to win that cash. It's USPSA for me. Scoring is not complicated, but you can't do it in your head. Hard to divide 149 by 18.23 without a calculator, but that's why EVERY club uses tablet scoring now. It's a requirement.

waktasz 11-06-2019 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyC (Post 12980558)
Yep. I got dinged for doing a mag-change on the move while I was still "behind cover" (long wall) and advancing toward the next section. I've done this stuff for real, so they can shove their dumb theories and their game.


They don't have that rule anymore. As long as you are not exposed to any unengaged targets, you can reload, anywhere. Even on the move and not behind cover.

dsa1mar 11-06-2019 09:02 PM

I started out shooting IDPA and switched to USPSA. I've never shot a major IDPA match only the local level and what got me frustrated was the subjective interpretation of the rules. 3 different SO's could witness something and all 3 would make different calls. And then there was the stage brief "that isn't what they meant! You can't do it that way." If they didn't effectively articulate it in the stage briefing then write a better one next time. Too much drama and hurt feelings for me in IDPA.

Rwehavinfunyet 11-07-2019 05:43 AM

IDPA reloads.....
 
As long as there are no threats, meaning all threats have been "neutralized," you can reload anywhere, but if there is any ammo left in the mag you plan to drop, to reload a fresh mag, it must be retained. I believe at one time the IDPA rules stated that if you drop an empty mag but there is a round still in the chamber, you have to retain the empty mag. The rationale is that no one can remember how many rounds were fired to leave one in the chamber, so the only time an empty mag may be dropped is with an empty gun.....so a gun at slide lock is an empty gun.....

Like most advanced shooters, I determine the location where I will reload, and I may shoot extra rounds on the last target in a shooting array before I advance to the next shooting position to be able to conduct a slide lock "reload on the move" if it is an advantage. When my gun is at slide lock at one shooting position, I can usually make a slide lock reload during one step of movement, then concentrate on getting into my next shooting position with the gun raised and concentrating on the first "outside" visible target from cover when "pieing" the targets......:)

Rwehavinfunyet 11-07-2019 06:12 AM

IDPA and long distance targets....
 
I once participated in a standards stage design with targets at 10, 15, 20 25, 30, and 35 yards from the shooter, and all targets were staggered so it looked like the targets were in a row about 2 yards laterally from each other, yet at the different distances. Two shots were required on each IDPA target, a minimum of 12 rounds, but more shots per target were allowed and the two best hits were scored, which forced all shooters to have at least one reload on the clock. Unfortunately, shooters had no idea if they hit the long distance targets, so they fired 3-4 shots hoping to get their hits. Some newer shooters having fired 3-4 shots on a target did not have any hits on the 35 yard target.....:(
I fired three shots on the 35 yard target, and fired two shots on the remaining and progressively closer targets so I would be at slide lock after firing two shots on the 15 yard target. I then conducted a slide lock reload as I transitioned to the 10 yard target to shoot the last two shots. I got very good hits because I started at the farthest target, then slightly increased my shooting pace as I got to the progressively closer targets, and made a slide lock reload while transitioning to the last and closest target.

Many new shooters were angry at having to shoot at 35 yards and not getting their hits. I would have rather seen a stage design using reactive targets, like using steel pepper poppers at the 25 yard and further distances, then using smaller mini pepper poppers or even IDPA cardboard targets requiring two shots on the IDPA targets at targets less than 25 yards away. A new shooter that was not able to hit a 35 yard steel pepper popper would make the decision to leave it standing, or to keep shooting until it fell.....At least they would know when they had a good hit on
the longer range targets.....:)

4110mm 11-07-2019 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet (Post 12980148)
... I don't think I actually swept my knee....

Of course you didn't. I do like the safety and gun handling skills these IDPA stages taught me. There is always a good deal of time spent at the walk through where potential safety traps are, opening doors, retreating, changing directions. Swiping when sitting on a chair is a classic and that needs to be learned.

waktasz 11-07-2019 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet (Post 12981128)
As long as there are no threats, meaning all threats have been "neutralized," you can reload anywhere, but if there is any ammo left in the mag you plan to drop, to reload a fresh mag, it must be retained. I believe at one time the IDPA rules stated that if you drop an empty mag but there is a round still in the chamber, you have to retain the empty mag. The rationale is that no one can remember how many rounds were fired to leave one in the chamber, so the only time an empty mag may be dropped is with an empty gun.....so a gun at slide lock is an empty gun.....

Like most advanced shooters, I determine the location where I will reload, and I may shoot extra rounds on the last target in a shooting array before I advance to the next shooting position to be able to conduct a slide lock "reload on the move" if it is an advantage. When my gun is at slide lock at one shooting position, I can usually make a slide lock reload during one step of movement, then concentrate on getting into my next shooting position with the gun raised and concentrating on the first "outside" visible target from cover when "pieing" the targets......:)

If the gun is loaded the mag must be retained, even if it's empty

Lppd4 11-08-2019 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz (Post 12981242)
If the gun is loaded the mag must be retained, even if it's empty

I like the other comment

Whats wrong with it?
The rules suck..

In an attempt to NOT be like USPSA, when IDPA was developed they focused so much on being realistic, they took too much of the fun out of it.


That's about stupid if you ask me. You can drop and empty mag if it produced a slide lock but not if it didn't. Its difficult for an old IPSC/USPSA shooter to try to shoot IDPA it's to restrictive, tactical order, tac reloads, the subjective 50% behind cover rule etc. When you are use to blowing and going


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