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-   -   do you use or your agency allow red dot sights? (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=989342)

DRM813 04-14-2019 04:15 PM

do you use or your agency allow red dot sights?
 
I think most of us recognize that red dot sights are the newest thing coming for duty pistols. We do not have a policy regarding them and my boss wants me to write one. There are quit a few of our employees who have them and more talking about making the transition to them.

If you use them what kind do you have?

What success/failures are you having with them?

Hawkeye fan 04-14-2019 05:03 PM

This may help you out itís from Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics. He covers the use of red dots on duty hand guns.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc12...079552b640.pdf

191159 04-14-2019 05:44 PM

It all sounds good....but the costs vs payoff will be tough to sell to any med size and above agency.

Roughly, $1500-$2000 min per officer. Need the optic, need the slide set up, new holster, training time, instructor time.

It may be an ‘optional’, but most large agencies have already shot it down for everyone due to that reason.

Plus, no one yet has come up with one that will hold up long term slide mounted.
Everyone says theirs will, but usually a couple thou, and it’s not showing up that way in long term testing.

SV 22 04-14-2019 06:59 PM

I can only speak to testing on Glocks. If you utilize a 9mm, there are slide mounted options that will last. Once you go to a .40, failure rates rise to an unacceptable level.

Between training man hours and ammunition expense, it is worth hiring a trainer to come in that specializes in transitioning to a red dot. A few tips and changes can eliminate a lot of time spent trying to figure it out for yourself.

nikerret 04-14-2019 07:25 PM

We are required to carry the G22 as a primary sidearm. Since they are from 2013, no RMR mounts. Therefore, no RMR’s.

mark2734 04-14-2019 07:35 PM

I work for the third largest Department in the US and the "rumor" is there's a push to make RMR sights an employee purchased option, NOT a Department issued piece of equipment.

The advantage, pointed out in the white paper quoted by Hawkeye, is target vs sight focus and the potential to reduce mistake of fact shootings.

Killer95Stang 04-15-2019 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark2734 (Post 12800572)
I work for the third largest Department in the US and the "rumor" is there's a push to make RMR sights an employee purchased option, NOT a Department issued piece of equipment.

The advantage, pointed out in the white paper quoted by Hawkeye, is target vs sight focus and the potential to reduce mistake of fact shootings.

It's not a rumor... it's coming.

mark2734 04-15-2019 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killer95Stang (Post 12800806)
It's not a rumor... it's coming.

I learned a long time ago not to spend my money until I see it in writing

DRM813 04-15-2019 06:03 PM

Ours will be an employee purchase option also. The cost to issue them to each employee would be financially crippling.

SoCalDep 04-15-2019 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark2734 (Post 12801204)
I learned a long time ago not to spend my money until I see it in writing

Spoken like someone who’s been around... with the ppt DROS of the “almost approved” gun to prove it... lol.

My department, close to mark2734’s, and the largest of its type, is also looking at optics for personal purchase. I thinknit’s coming, and I did buy the guns/optics, and I’m a believer.

If we can get STIs, AND optics... well... a poor man is me.

mark2734 04-15-2019 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalDep (Post 12801566)
Spoken like someone whoís been around... with the ppt DROS of the ďalmost approvedĒ gun to prove it... lol.

My department, close to mark2734ís, and the largest of its type, is also looking at optics for personal purchase. I thinknitís coming, and I did buy the guns/optics, and Iím a believer.

If we can get STIs, AND optics... well... a poor man is me.

HaHa we already have STIs and I'm already poor

SoCalDep 04-16-2019 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark2734 (Post 12801578)
HaHa we already have STIs and I'm already poor

Oh I know (STIs)... Your guys are sure fighting the good fight. Youíve got a great cadre up there. Iím always impressed when we shoot together. I took my son up to the academy this past weekend and we walked around a bit. My department doesnít have anything like the EP grounds... truly historic.

Iím already poor too... gonna get more poor.

rangertrace 04-16-2019 05:24 AM

They allow us (Rangers) to use them. A couple of us have ZEV OZ9 pistols with Trijicon Type 2 RMRs on them. On close targets, I'm just as fast or even a little faster with irons. But 25-50 yards the dot is much more fast/accurate for me. 50 year old eyes suck.

I still prefer a good 1911 and will be back to carrying one when Cheely gets my Commander finished. The OZ9 will likely be my night time callout gun.

mark2734 04-16-2019 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangertrace (Post 12801646)
They allow us (Rangers) to use them. A couple of us have ZEV OZ9 pistols with Trijicon Type 2 RMRs on them. On close targets, I'm just as fast or even a little faster with irons. But 25-50 yards the dot is much more fast/accurate for me. 50 year old eyes suck.

I still prefer a good 1911 and will be back to carrying one when Cheely gets my Commander finished. The OZ9 will likely be my night time callout gun.

Just checked it out. Seems like a nice piece.

Greenrunner 04-17-2019 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalDep (Post 12801596)
Oh I know (STIs)... Your guys are sure fighting the good fight. Youíve got a great cadre up there. Iím always impressed when we shoot together. I took my son up to the academy this past weekend and we walked around a bit. My department doesnít have anything like the EP grounds... truly historic.

Iím already poor too... gonna get more poor.

Historic? You are making me feel old. I went through the academy on those historic EP grounds, when our carry options were not quite as extensive as now -- k frame S&W revolvers that were .38 special and not .357 capable. J frame for a backup gun.

What's a red dot?

JayhawkNavy02 04-17-2019 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SV 22 (Post 12800546)
I can only speak to testing on Glocks. If you utilize a 9mm, there are slide mounted options that will last. Once you go to a .40, failure rates rise to an unacceptable level.

Between training man hours and ammunition expense, it is worth hiring a trainer to come in that specializes in transitioning to a red dot. A few tips and changes can eliminate a lot of time spent trying to figure it out for yourself.

Switch to Aimpoint. The military shooting teams (45 APC and 9mm) are shooting 100s of thousands of rounds annually through a small population of pistols with almost zero issues. Lots of dead dots along the way to figure out what works. Are dots more reliable than irons, of course not.

For the OP, Rifles yes, pistols no.

Tim Burke 04-18-2019 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangertrace (Post 12801646)
On close targets, I'm just as fast or even a little faster with irons. But 25-50 yards the dot is much more fast/accurate for me.

My experience, too. Small or far targets, there's an advantage, but for most of what I expect to need a pistol, I find it slower.

coltm4223 04-18-2019 11:10 AM

I work for the second smallest Fed LE agency and we traded the M&P45 for the M2.0 .45 with the slide cut and new kydex holsters in anticipation of a red dot approval. The agency just submitted the contract for the purchase of the Trijicon RMR Type 2. Should see them on the guns around Christmas. It will remain optional for the agents.

mark2734 04-18-2019 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coltm4223 (Post 12803660)
I work for the second smallest Fed LE agency and we traded the M&P45 for the M2.0 .45 with the slide cut and new kydex holsters in anticipation of a red dot approval. The agency just submitted the contract for the purchase of the Trijicon RMR Type 2. Should see them on the guns around Christmas. It will remain optional for the agents.

Mind posting some info on the holster? The Trijicon RMR is the go to sight but holsters are up in the air.

rangertrace 04-18-2019 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark2734 (Post 12803760)
Mind posting some info on the holster? The Trijicon RMR is the go to sight but holsters are up in the air.

If you don't have to have retention, DSGARMS makes a D4 holster what will fit a tac light and RMR. I've got a Safariland ALS on my tac rig when I need retention.

Hawkeye fan 04-18-2019 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark2734 (Post 12803760)
Mind posting some info on the holster? The Trijicon RMR is the go to sight but holsters are up in the air.

I don't know which holster they are using but for my G34 with the RMR type 2 I'm using a Safariland 6390 RDS ALS holster. Safariland does offer it with the SLS hood as well if you need it.

https://i.imgur.com/6bDczoi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PhnSHft.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/74DzzJD.jpg

mark2734 04-18-2019 03:07 PM

Yeah the Safariland is the only real option for uniform duty carry I've seen.

Plain clothes/special duty is about whatever the individual wants to buy/carry.

Colt191145 04-20-2019 04:21 AM

I am not an LEO, but I did have a glock 23 with a trijicon RMR for a while. The dots are very accurate and sure help with aging eyes.

BUT if you are the slightest bit ODC then the dot might not be for you. The slightest scratch or bit of dirt on the RMR window would throw me for a loop, I would want to focus on the damn piece of dirt or water spot and not the red dot. I was constantly having to keep the window glass clean, what a pain in the ass.

The RMR is a great sight, if you can get past debris or scratches on the glass then go for it.

For me, I will wait until the Aimpoint sealed sight becomes available before I maybe try a dot on a pistol again.

coltm4223 04-23-2019 03:13 PM

We are currently issuing a Kydex holster made to our specifications from High Threat Concealment (HTC). I will see if there is a model number

mark2734 04-23-2019 08:10 PM

Thanks


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