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-   -   production scoring in USPSA (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=1003658)

steve25680 11-11-2019 12:59 PM

production scoring in USPSA
 
I know it has been this way for a long time, but I am just getting around to being irritated enough about it to try to find out why there is no Major power factor scoring in USPSA. This does not make any sense to me and I was wondering if someone could tell me the (flawed) logic behind it.

Thanks

steve25680

Jim Watson 11-11-2019 01:24 PM

The original premise of Production was as an entry level Division to be shot with common cheap 9mm guns with common cheap 9mm ammo.

Production has become its own specialty with well tuned and no longer cheap 9mms.
The new shooter is encouraged to shoot his common cheap 9mm in Limited Minor so he won't have to strain his little brain remembering to reload every 8 shots.

Striker2237 11-11-2019 01:26 PM

It's production. Literally invented to stop the dominance of 1911/2011s and allow people win basic gear to have a class they can compete in and have a chance. However it's now a gear race as usual with CZ Shadows currently doing very well.

Major only exists in the real classes

parallax 11-11-2019 01:33 PM

[Sarcasm]Because Glocks blow up with even factory "minor" ammo." Running 9mm Major through them would be suicide![/Sarcasm]

Snoopy47 11-11-2019 02:44 PM

I thought the total opposite.

I'm trying to get more into competitive shooting and in looking at the rules am not sure how MAJOR manifested.

Off the shelf factory MAJOR isn't easy to find. If someone doesn't RELOAD and wants to meet MAJOR power factors they have to buy home defense ammo.

Why is MAJOR such a power factor that it is NOT commonly found on the shelf with factory ammo, and can only be fired through the most robust of all steel guns?

Since everyone has to reload anyway to meet MAJOR PF (cost effectively) why is it soooo important that the PF be so high as to be a safety risk to non steel guns. Everything would still pretty much be equal among all the competitors if MAJOR was knocked down several thousand, and the safety factors would greatly improve.

**************

I get it. These organizations will not be changing their rules. I just don't see how MAJOR PF being as high as it is in the spirit of sportsmanship needs to be as high as it is.

Striker2237 11-11-2019 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy47 (Post 12984726)
I thought the total opposite.

I'm trying to get more into competitive shooting and in looking at the rules am not sure how MAJOR manifested.

Off the shelf factory MAJOR isn't easy to find. If someone doesn't RELOAD and wants to meet MAJOR power factors they have to buy home defense ammo.

Why is MAJOR such a power factor that it is NOT commonly found on the shelf with factory ammo, and can only be fired through the most robust of all steel guns?

Since everyone has to reload anyway to meet MAJOR PF (cost effectively) why is it soooo important that the PF be so high as to be a safety risk to non steel guns. Everything would still pretty much be equal among all the competitors if MAJOR was knocked down several thousand, and the safety factors would greatly improve.

**************

I get it. These organizations will not be changing their rules. I just don't see how MAJOR PF being as high as it is in the spirit of sportsmanship needs to be as high as it is.

Because these games used to use duty ammo. To better simulate how the guns will actually feel in real use since this was originally envisioned as a practice aid. That's why .40, super strong 9mm, .38s, .357 mag, and .45 all make major and weak 9mm doesn't.

They already knocked major down twice, it used to be 200, then 180, now 160. I say they should put it back to 200 to really separate the guns that can and can't hang,

M-Peltier 11-11-2019 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker2237 (Post 12984728)
Because these games used to use duty ammo. To better simulate how the guns will actually feel in real use since this was originally envisioned as a practice aid. That's why .40, super strong 9mm, .38s, .357 mag, and .45 all make major and weak 9mm doesn't.

They already knocked major down twice, it used to be 200, then 180, now 160. I say they should put it back to 200 to really separate the guns that can and can't hang,

I don't know about those numbers. Its currently 165. when I started many years ago it was 175. I never saw it at 200.

shooter59 11-11-2019 03:11 PM

You’re correct. 165 currently, used to be 175. Never was 200

GunBugBit 11-11-2019 03:34 PM

Don't understand the gripe. If you for some reason just have to shoot major, there are many other divisions where you can do that.

If it's because your favorite gun shoots a major factory load and you don't reload, and you really want to shoot that gun in production but can't, I guess I could understand. Is that it?

anonymouscuban 11-12-2019 09:12 AM

I say get rid of PF scoring all together. While you're at it, get rid of all the divisions and have only two: irons sights and everything else. Oh... and kick PCC out to start their own league.

If that's too crazy then have Production, Limited and Open. We don't need any of the rest of the divisions that exist.

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Jim Watson 11-12-2019 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy47 (Post 12984726)
I thought the total opposite.

I'm trying to get more into competitive shooting and in looking at the rules am not sure how MAJOR manifested.

Off the shelf factory MAJOR isn't easy to find. .

Not so.
Major power factor was originally defined as .45 ACP hardball shot out of a Commander.
.45 ACP hardball right off the shelf will still make Major.

True, developments in guns, revised rules, and a willingness to overload smallbores has pretty well obsoleted the .45 for high level USPSA competition, but it is still there if you want off the shelf Major. Just not in Production.

Igloodude 11-13-2019 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson (Post 12985320)
Not so.
Major power factor was originally defined as .45 ACP hardball shot out of a Commander.
.45 ACP hardball right off the shelf will still make Major.

True, developments in guns, revised rules, and a willingness to overload smallbores has pretty well obsoleted the .45 for high level USPSA competition, but it is still there if you want off the shelf Major. Just not in Production.

45 hardball is up around a 200PF (230gr, 850-900fps).

I shoot 45 and honestly the coolest thing about it is being able to use 200gr semiwadcutter bullets making the biggest damn holes in the target possible. Didn't tape up from the previous shooter? Doesn't matter, score it anyway. :rock:

(we now return you to your scheduled Production discussion)

Jim Watson 11-13-2019 08:29 AM

Original hardball was around 825 fps, f 189.
Less from a Commander or PD which was the standard in the ballistic pendulum "Peter the Power Meter" days.
But you can buy f 170 .45 ACP from Asym and I think Atlanta.

But Production doesn't care. So I load .45 Minor so I can keep the guns in action without beating up my arthritis.

Tom Freeman 11-13-2019 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker2237 (Post 12984728)

They already knocked major down twice, it used to be 200, then 180, now 160. I say they should put it back to 200 to really separate the guns that can and can't hang,


I have been playing this game long enough to remember when there was only one division and Limited was was new enough to be called Tactical.

I dont remember 200 pf. And it was 175 and now it is 165.

Rwehavinfunyet 11-13-2019 10:42 AM

Uspsa
 
Like Tom Freeman, I have been shooting USPSA for a very long time, since late 1984, and the power factor was 175 for Major scoring at that time. After many high volume shooters were experiencing elbow and joint issues from the sharp recoil over the years, USPSA finally lowered the power factor to 165 for Major scoring, which is still in effect today... I don't believe there was ever a required 200 PF for major scoring.....:confused:

steve25680 11-13-2019 01:08 PM

Thanks for all the responses to my original post, and there was a lot of great comments in there, most of which I agree with but especially making the PCC people get their own discipline together. IPSC/USPSA was originally designed to be a test of handgun defensive skills and it should stay that way. Part of the reason I was asking this question to begin with is that some time back (at least 10 years) I won a Springfield XD in .40 cal that had magazines holding 12 rounds. Still have it, sitting in my nightstand. I wanted to shoot it in production, but was essentially being penalized for shooting a gun that actually had enough power to be considered an effective defensive round. So while I guess I understand the momentum that USPSA tried to create with Production Division, and it was a good thing to help grow the sport (less money put out in equipment), it still makes no sense to me that you can't shoot both major and minor in production. But it ain't going to change, so I will quit whining about it. To the gentleman who wrote about having to buy really stout factory ammo if you don't reload, that can be a problem, but if you really want to get good at this game, you have to shoot a lot and reloading is the only way to go unless you have a really good job and a very understanding partner. DVC

waktasz 11-13-2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy47 (Post 12984726)
I thought the total opposite.

I'm trying to get more into competitive shooting and in looking at the rules am not sure how MAJOR manifested.

Off the shelf factory MAJOR isn't easy to find. If someone doesn't RELOAD and wants to meet MAJOR power factors they have to buy home defense ammo.

Why is MAJOR such a power factor that it is NOT commonly found on the shelf with factory ammo, and can only be fired through the most robust of all steel guns?

Since everyone has to reload anyway to meet MAJOR PF (cost effectively) why is it soooo important that the PF be so high as to be a safety risk to non steel guns. Everything would still pretty much be equal among all the competitors if MAJOR was knocked down several thousand, and the safety factors would greatly improve.

**************

I get it. These organizations will not be changing their rules. I just don't see how MAJOR PF being as high as it is in the spirit of sportsmanship needs to be as high as it is.

Every factory 40 and 45 load makes major.

9mm is not allowed to make major (except in Open), even if it reaches the required power floor so save your +p+ loads for shootin perps

waktasz 11-13-2019 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GunBugBit (Post 12984772)
Don't understand the gripe. If you for some reason just have to shoot major, there are many other divisions where you can do that.

If it's because your favorite gun shoots a major factory load and you don't reload, and you really want to shoot that gun in production but can't, I guess I could understand. Is that it?


Real men shoot major and declare minor

Jim Watson 11-13-2019 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymouscuban (Post 12985310)
I say get rid of PF scoring all together.

Then we can shoot .22s and save lots of money and reduce recoil to nearly nothing. What I advocated to SASS when I saw the .32s and 105 gr .38s coming in. It was not well received.

Kind of like Olympic Running Deer.
Started out with a deer silhouette and a manually operated centerfire rifle. Walter Winans gamed that with a Rigby double rifle in .22 Savage High Power. Then it went to a running boar with a .22 LR. Then to air rifle, then to a sliding bullseye for the air rifle so they wouldn't appear to hurt a piggy.

Tom Freeman 11-13-2019 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve25680 (Post 12986446)
most of which I agree with but especially making the PCC people get their own discipline together. IPSC/USPSA was originally designed to be a test of handgun defensive skills and it should stay that way.


Maybe the founders of IPSC should have called it Pistol instead of Practical. But, they didnt.

I dont get the butt hurt with PCC. It is getting people out shooting.

Tim Burke 11-13-2019 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson (Post 12985320)
.45 ACP hardball right off the shelf will still make Major.

S&B 230 gr FMJ @ the SS Nationals last week, PF 188 & change. I've had Federal AE 230 gr FMJ chrono at 203, but that's been a while.

pat_jones 11-13-2019 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz (Post 12986472)
9mm is not allowed to make major (except in Open), even if it reaches the required power floor so save your +p+ loads for shootin perps

Though not common, 9 major would also be allowed in revolver division.


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anonymouscuban 11-14-2019 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Freeman (Post 12986526)
Maybe the founders of IPSC should have called it Pistol instead of Practical. But, they didnt.



I dont get the butt hurt with PCC. It is getting people out shooting.

Couple issues I see with PCC at my local matches and I've heard others, elsewhere also complain about the same stuff.

Stages being designed around PCC. Either to screw over the PCC guys with a bunch of hard leans or the opposite... making them catered to PCC. I mean seriously... what's challenging about shooting a course of fire designed for a pistol with a long rifle that shoots a pistol load? I would think PCC guys would want stages designed for them. I would if I shot PCC.

Muzzle here. Muzzle there. Everywhere you look, you got guys handling their rifles away from the safe area. I don't like it. I'd get DQ'd if I did half the **** the PCC guys do.

Backups. Stages get all backed up anytime you got a few PCC guys on a squad. Always. Never fails.

The last one is no biggie but the first two are enough, in my opinion, to warrant PCC only matches. My opinion. Take it or leave it.

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waktasz 11-14-2019 10:01 AM

Your clubs are doing it wrong if that is the case. Any of it.

Snoopy47 11-14-2019 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz (Post 12986472)
Every factory 40 and 45 load makes major.

9mm is not allowed to make major (except in Open), even if it reaches the required power floor so save your +p+ loads for shootin perps

That's my point. 45ACP doesn't make capacity, and 9mm off the shelf generally won't make PF. So now to run in open reloading is an unwritten requirement.

So I take it the majority of Open are running 45ACP? Right, the original intent was duty 45ACP would be the real mans gun and PF, and that's what's the vast majority are doing now? 45ACP race guns dominate the sport.


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